No Plans

[Alofa Atu]

No Plans

Powerpoint:

https://archive.org/download/no-plans/No Plans.pptx

(Apologies for some audio/visual errors)

 

[Alofa Atu]

No Plans

Powerpoint:

https://archive.org/download/no-plans/No Plans.pptx

(Apologies for some audio/visual errors)

Any feedback would be appreciated, thank you.

Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuJIK1Lhu7BgyCuOVjRHg8A

Much more Can be found here - User Account

And Especially here - http://supernaturalresources.epizy.com

Or here - Matthew_ten_Verseight

Or here - https://www.dailymotion.com/library/playlist/x6qij7

Or here - $1's Page!

Or here - https://d.tube/c/supernaturalresources444

Or here - Character Building

Or here - awhn

 

[Alofa Atu]

So which plan are you on?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I for one will not waste the time my Lord has given me on watching a Seventh Day Adventist lecture. (I hesitate to call it a sermon.)

 

[Alofa Atu]

I for one will not waste the time my Lord has given me on watching a Seventh Day Adventist lecture. (I hesitate to call it a sermon.)

Would you watch it entirely, if I were to watch one you chose for me? An exchange?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Nope. for the same reason I won't go to an RCC mass to get an RCC to come to my church.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Nope. for the same reason I won't go to an RCC mass to get an RCC to come to my church.

Apples to Oranges fallacy. What is in the video isn't a "mass", which has nothing to do with scripture. It is preaching from the Bible, with one quotation from Desire of Ages which follows the Biblical text.

Have you ever seen a baptist debate another that is not a baptist?

 

[Alofa Atu]

on watching

How about just reading the powepoint provided?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I will not waste the time my Lord has given me on heresy.

 

[Alofa Atu]

I will not waste the time my Lord has given me on heresy.

How do you know it is heresy if you refuse to both watch and read? You sound like these:

Mat_13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I view the SDA as heresy.

 

[Alofa Atu]

I view the SDA as heresy.

So, the Father (Ancient of Days) is God (Deity), Uncreated and Eternal, I AM, JEHOVAH (That's what a Seventh-day Adventist believes). That's heresy?

 

[Salty]

Okay, lets start with one basic doctrine:

When a person dies, a Baptist believes that those who are born again (+ nothing - nothing) will instantly be in Heaven.
Those who are not born again will instantly be in Hell.

Do you agree with these statements?

 

[Alofa Atu]

Okay, lets start with one basic doctrine:

When a person dies, a Baptist believes that those who are born again (+ nothing - nothing) will instantly be in Heaven.
Those who are not born again will instantly be in Hell.

Do you agree with these statements?

That would deny the doctrine and purpose of the resurrection and second advent, and therefore, No, not all "Baptist" believe as you (individually) do, as I have shown on numerous occasions. Therefore you do not have an issue with me, or Seventh-day Adventist doctrine, but with the Bible and with other Baptist before you.

Historically:

Like Luther who believed the person sleeps in death until their resurrection at the return of Jesus:

Others included Camillo Renato (1540)[109] Mátyás Dévai Bíró (1500–1545)[110] Michael Servetus (1511–1553)[111] Laelio Sozzini (1562)[112] Fausto Sozzini (1563)[113] the Polish Brethren (1565 onwards)[114] Dirk Philips (1504–1568)[115] Gregory Paul of Brzezin (1568)[116] the Socinians (1570–1800)[117] John Frith (1573)[118] George Schomann (1574)[119] Simon Budny (1576)[113]​

Like Milton:

Those holding this view include: 1600s: Sussex Baptists[126] d. 1612: Edward Wightman[127] 1627: Samuel Gardner[128] 1628: Samuel Przypkowski[129] 1636: George Wither[130] 1637: Joachim Stegmann[131] 1624: Richard Overton[90] 1654: John Biddle (Unitarian)[132] 1655: Matthew Caffyn[133] 1658: Samuel Richardson[134] 1608–1674: John Milton[135][136] 1588–1670: Thomas Hobbes[117] 1605–1682: Thomas Browne[137] 1622–1705: Henry Layton[138] 1702: William Coward[138] 1632–1704: John Locke[139] 1643–1727: Isaac Newton[140] 1676–1748: Pietro Giannone[141] 1751: William Kenrick[142] 1755: Edmund Law[143] 1759: Samuel Bourn[144] 1723–1791: Richard Price[145] 1718–1797: Peter Peckard[146] 1733–1804: Joseph Priestley[147] Francis Blackburne (1765)[148] (1765).​

19th-20th century:

Others include: Millerites (from 1833),[154] Edward White (1846),[155] Christadelphians (from 1848),[156] Thomas Thayer (1855),[157] François Gaussen (d.1863),[158] Henry Constable (1873),[159] Louis Burnier (Waldensian, d.1878),[160] the Baptist Conditionalist Association (1878),[161] Cameron Mann (1888),[162] Emmanuel Pétavel-Olliff (1891), Miles Grant (1895)[163] George Gabriel Stokes (1897),[155]

The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Modern Christian Thought (1995), says "There is no concept of an immortal soul in the Old Testament, nor does the New Testament ever call the human soul immortal.",[190] Harper's Bible Dictionary (1st ed. 1985), says that 'For a Hebrew, ‘soul’ indicated the unity of a human person; Hebrews were living bodies, they did not have bodies",[191] the New Bible Dictionary’ (3rd. ed. 1996), says "But to the Bible man is not a soul in a body but a body/soul unity",[192] the Encyclopedia of Judaism’ (2000), says "Scripture does not present even a rudimentarily developed theology of the soul",[193] the New Dictionary of Theology’ (2000), and "The notion of the soul as an independent force that animates human life but that can exist apart from the human body—either prior to conception and birth or subsequent to life and death—is the product only of later Judaism",[188] Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible (2000), says "Far from referring simply to one aspect of a person, “soul” refers to the whole person",[194] the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says "Possibly Jn. 6:33 also includes an allusion to the general life-giving function. This teaching rules out all ideas of an emanation of the soul.",[195] and "The soul and the body belong together, so that without either the one or the other there is no true man",[196] Eerdmans Bible Dictionary (1987), says "Indeed, the salvation of the “immortal soul” has sometimes been a commonplace in preaching, but it is fundamentally unbiblical.",[197] the Encyclopedia of Christianity (2003), says "The Hebrew Bible does not present the human soul (nepeš) or spirit (rûah) as an immortal substance, and for the most part it envisions the dead as ghosts in Sheol, the dark, sleepy underworld",[198] The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (2005), says "there is practically no specific teaching on the subject in the Bible beyond an underlying assumption of some form of afterlife (see immortality)",[199] and the Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible (rev. ed. 2009), says "It is this essential soul-body oneness that provides the uniqueness of the biblical concept of the resurrection of the body as distinguished from the Greek idea of the immortality of the soul".[200][201]

The mortalist disbelief in the existence of a naturally immortal soul,[1][5] is also affirmed as biblical teaching by various modern theologians,[202][203][204][205][206][207][208][209][210]- Christian mortalism​

 

[Alofa Atu]

Okay, lets start with one basic doctrine:

When a person dies, a Baptist believes that those who are born again (+ nothing - nothing) will instantly be in Heaven.
Those who are not born again will instantly be in Hell.

Do you agree with these statements?

So, why do you disagree with these, are they all Heretics?

Anabaptist (generally and anciently) and later Mennonite (some):

Paulsen, for instance, says,

"The imagery of the soul's sleep expresses the nature of the interim state of the soul; the idea that the soul sleeps is substantiated by those who have been roused from the dead, inasmuch as the awakened ones can give no information about death, as would be the case if they had remained fully conscious." - The Mennonite Encyclopedia: A Comprehensive Reference Work on the Anabaptist-Mennonite Movement, Volume 4 - Link​

"... [Anabaptists] taught the sleep of the soul in death and eternal life only in Christ received at the resurrection. This inevitably developed into tension with the established churches, which in turn resulted in prohibition of the Anabaptist assemblies." - Martin Luther's Views on Conditionalism and Soul Sleep​

Seventh-day Anabaptists:

"[Doctrine held generally] Soul Sleep (conditional immortality of the soul)." - Seventh Day Anabaptists: Doctrines of the Anabaptists influence continue in the heart of bible believing Christians

"Nearly all of them [Anabaptists] taught both soul-sleep and the final annihilation of the wicked" - The Anabaptists and their Stepchildren - F.N. Lee | Reformed Theology at Semper Reformanda​

General Baptists

In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England As one article of faith they held "that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] http://books.google.com/books?id=EIEPAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

John Calvin (who wrote against in his Psychopannychia (1534), which is where most Calvinist Baptist get the idea of immediate hell/heaven reward), Friedrich Spanheim & Karl Muller wrote about the Anabaptists, and documented their beliefs:

"Calvin, in his Psychopannychia (1544), counts the Anabaptists as one of the groups believing in the sleep of the soul ... Also Friedrich Spannheim asserts that the Mennonites held the belief in the sleep of the soul ... Karl Müller, the church historian of Tübingen, thought the doctrine was definitely held by the Anabaptists in the Romance countries"​

Samuel Richardson (1633-1658)

Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :
"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also Page 70 herem right hand top Column] - http://books.google.com/books?id=W2NlnJippEkC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

Modern era:

Warren Prestidge (M.A., B.D. Hons) is a Baptist pastor. His first degree was in English and he has taught at Auckland University and at secondary school. Since 1981, he has pastored churches in Auckland and also lectured for the Bible College of New Zealand and Tyndale College. For two years he directed a Bible College in the Philippines. He authored Life, Death and Destiny. -

"According to the Bible, the dead, whether Christian or non-Christian, good or evil, saved or lost, are neither suffering in “hell”, nor labouring in “purgatory”, nor rejoicing in “heaven”. Rather, they have entirely ceased to function. Without consciousness, they await the resurrection of the dead at the return of the Christ, that is, Jesus, in the glory of God. To use a common biblical metaphor, they “sleep the sleep of death” (Ps. 13:3)." - Sleep of death | Soul Sleep - Afterlife | Conditional Immortality​

Modern Others:

"... annihilationists come from and are part of any number of different denominations. ...

... E. Earle Ellis was a professor of theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (Southern Baptist Convention) until he fell asleep. Similarly, Dale Moody taught at Southern Baptist Seminary (also SBC). I bet you never thought conservative Southern Baptists would hold this view! Claude Mariottini, Old Testament professor at Northern Baptist Seminary (American Baptist Convention), is also an annihilationist, 7 ..." - Don’t Be Afraid to Rethink Hell: Why Other Beliefs Needn’t Get In Your Way

"... I was a few weeks into the research when I read an article by a renown Southern Baptist New Testament scholar named E. Earle Ellis titled “The New Testament Teaching on Hell.” In it, he argued fairly and thoroughly that the New Testament advocates for an annihilation view of hell. This caught me off guard; I didn’t know he was going to argue for this. I read the article very casually, thinking it was going to be yet another defense of the traditional view. After all, Ellis is Southern Baptist. He’s evangelical. And he didn’t front his view at the beginning. He simply looked at all the relevant passages, exegeted them (with the exegetical methods I was taught in seminary), and then concluded that hell would not last forever; that is, its inhabitants would not experience everlasting conscious torment. And Ellis argued this from the text. ..." - Is Annihilation an Evangelical Option?

E. Earle Ellis ; New Testament Teaching on Hell - Rethinking Hell

Edward Fudge: Hell & Mr. Fudge - https://edwardfudge.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/excerptTFTC3.pdf

Re-enactment (Film), Hell & Mr. Fudge - Hell & Mr Fudge - Edward Fudge : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive or here - Matthew_ten_Verseight

Lecture - Edward Fudge - The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of Hell

 

[Alofa Atu]

Please do not get the idea that, as a Seventh-day Adventist, I deny the Biblical (KJB) doctrine of "hell" and "hellfire", "torment" or even later "Lake of fire". I most certainly do not deny such doctrine, and teach it, in the context of God is Love. It will be a mercy to the finally impenitent and a final judgment. What I deny is eternal torment. I am praying for those who call me what they do, in all sincerity and truth. If we cannot have a conversation about what the Bible says, as Christians, then when can conversation ever take place? If anything I present, is to be summarily dismissed, without even so much as consideration in full, then what is the purpose of this section of the forums? I consider what you say, and present in full. I respond in kind. I provide documentation, facts, evidence - truth. I am not presenting what an individual man thinks, but what God says, and as others themselves have so read and understood as the Bible defines itself.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Okay, lets start with one basic doctrine:

Did you have another doctrine in mind that you think is heresy that we teach?

 

[timtofly]

I have been banned from a forum for saying we are sons of God. We were created on day 6 in the image of God as sons of God. Adam was set apart from the other sons of God plural, and placed in the Garden. After Adam named the animals, God gave Adam his name.

2000 years later God called Abram out of Ur And changed his name to Abraham.

2000 years later God Himself came to earth and gave all who would receive, His own name.

Now it is time for Adam's punishment to end. Those in Christ will have the full restoration of an incorruptible body and our spirit to our soul.

Adam's incorruptible body did die the second he ate, and he received a corruptible body of flesh and blood, and a sin nature. His spirit was taken back into the presence of God. At conception, our spirit goes before God. The Holy Spirit seals us. We are the soul. Everything else comes from God. We are spiritually dead. Our spirit is our witness before God. We are physically dead. This body turns to dust, and will not be resurrected.

At death, those in Christ immediately receive an incorruptible body, because without it we cannot enter Paradise. At the cross, Jesus opened Paradise, and took the sting of death away. Thus we have an incorruptible body. Before the cross, the soul was in Abraham's bosom as a ghost, with form, but no body. At the 6th seal Christ will present to God a complete church body. Then all will receive a glorified body, our robes of white, immortality. A son of God, as created on day 6.

The lost die physically, and the soul stays in sheol, until the GWT, then cast into the lake of fire. It would seem that their spirit before God at some point becomes a demon, and flees God's presence. Now is there a chance at the GWT that some still have their spirit in the presence of God? I don't know. I would not want to figure out either.

Now are there verses for every point. Paul did the bulk of the work in the NT. David claims his soul would not be left in sheol. Jesus told the thief, that day he would be in Paradise. He was the first one there since Cain was cast out. Maybe Enoch and Moses, Jude 1, but I think they have a different task. Those bodies that came out of the tomb, did not go immediately. Jesus had not yet ascended Himself, until Sunday sometime. When He ascended He offered to God the firstfruits, and the OT saints received incorruptible bodies, but are waiting for completion, Revelation 6.

Since the cross, Stephen and Paul testified, they go immediately to Paradise and every death is a resurrection into an incorruptible body. Death is the only way to escape Adam's punishment. God does not want the old flesh and blood body. If any living church is still alive, (Paul was optimistic in the time of Roman persecution and tribulation) they will be changed in mid air. That is it for the church. They do not return until the New Jerusalem. Now John left out some detail, but the church is in the temple of God, Paradise in Revelation 7. In Revelation 20, only those who died in the trumpets, thunders, and beheaded, will live on earth. John mentions thrones, but where they are, is not exactly revealed. Those on earth stay on earth. Those in Paradise come down in the New Jerusalem. That is the upgraded version of Paradise.

 

[Alofa Atu]

If that really is current Baptist theology, and Baptists think that what was just given makes sense, is logical, orderly and with wisdom from God, I would like to say I am glad I am not Baptist and instead believe the 'heresy' I do.

 

[timtofly]

If that really is current Baptist theology, and Baptists think that what was just given makes sense, is logical, orderly and with wisdom from God, I would like to say I am glad I am not Baptist and instead believe the 'heresy' I do.

You sound like most Baptist. It is a sad day when pointing out biblical statements, "makes" no sense. But if lack of understanding is a heresy, I would not go that far in asserting any facts.

What I posted is not theology, and I pray it does not get turned into theology at any time. I am not a theologian, THANK GOD!

Are posters here who take up post after post of their studies, considered mainline theology? I mean unless they are just copying and pasting mainline theology, which would just be reading a theology book and not even a conversation.