No Salvation Without the Human Element

[atpollard]

but if someone is out to prove [anything] in spite of what the scriptures say then all hope for reasoned debate is out the window.

I agree with the above.

... what I stated about God using the testimony of men to make known his salvation to other men.

This is not exactly what the OP states.
For the record, both I and scripture do appear to agree with the statement that God does use "the testimony of men to make known his salvation to other men". Scripture is full of examples of just such an event. However, you appear to believe, and the OP claims that this is the ONE AND ONLY way that God saves men. Both scripture and I do not support such a claim.

 

[1689Dave]

God is not saving anyone without the faithful witness of another person. Our New Testament is a compilation of the testimonies of eye witnesses of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ who heard his teachings. Anyone who is saved must believe what these men wrote. There is no other way that God is making himself and his doctrines known to us. The only people who ever saw the resurrected Lord Jesus, with the exception of Paul on the Damascus Road, (whose conversion is a typical teaching of God's purpose in saving a remnant of Israel), were those who were already believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, men were "justified" by faith in what God said to them. Their faith in what God said was "imputed" to them by God for righteousness. Believers were justified before the cross but their sins were not washed away. However, justification is only one of several parts of salvation. Salvation is accomplished when men receive the Holy Ghost and are sealed by him unto the day of redemption of the body. Now, since the cross, our Lord Jesus Christ is made unto us "justification." We believe what men have witnessed and reported about God.If we do not hear it or read it we cannot be saved because God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe and he says the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The scriptures say in Romans 10 that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God and whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. The rhetorical question is then, "how can they call on him in whom they have not believed and how shall they believe on him in whom they have not heard and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The first gentile to ever be saved, Cornelius of Acts 10, an Italian, desired to be saved and God did not save him until he had sent for a preacher of the gospel of Christ who preached to him and his household. Salvation for them was simultaneous with receiving the Holy Ghost into their mortal bodies, when they believed the witness of the preacher. Cornelius had all the evidence of a believer before he received the gift of the Spirit, but he was not saved until God gave him the Spirit, according to Peter in his defense of his actions to the Jews in the next chapter. I believe Peter's report. Here it is;

Acts 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

There are synonyms in this account.

The Gift of God, the Holy Ghost, salvation, eternal life. There is no greater instruction in salvation than this account and it has nothing to do with being elected before creation. Salvation from the penalty of sin comes by believing and it does not come until then. It comes to whoever believes, not to whoever is elected before creation. The witness must come through the agency of men. Acts 10 and 11 proves this beyond doubt. Salvation was not given to Cornelius only on this day but to gentiles who before this had not been given the Spirit.

I am a saved man preaching salvation through Christ to all who will believe.Will you believe?

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The blessing of Abraham is the Spirit of Christ , who is salvation, according to the text.

You teach salvation by self-righteousness. The truth is, God, saves only those who cannot save themselves.

Luther says;

"First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only. For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and do not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation. But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such an one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved."
Martin Luther. (n.d.). The Bondage of the Will.

 

[JD731]

You correctly recognize that God only gives the gift of faith to those whom he has made alive with Christ.

I did not recognize that God gives the gift of faith to anyone. God does not have several gifts to give out. to sinners. He has one gift and that gift is salvation. His principle for giving it is grace. It is grace because he is giving it to those who do not deserve it. The principle for receiving the gift of salvation is faith. This is stated plainly in scripture over and over and when a denier of this gracious offer of salvation is teaching contrary to what God said he should expect to spend an eternity in the lake of fire.

What I did say was that the Spirit of God, who immerses us into the body of Christ, which he is forming with individual believers in the gospel of Christ, gifts each member and places them as a functioning member of the body according to his own will and for the benefit of the whole body. I quoted from 1 Cor 12 where this is dealt with in depth.Faith is just one of the gifts that is given and it is not given to all who are in the body. I do not know why someone like you cannot read this and understand such an elementary teaching of the Christian faith.

Therefore, no "dead in your trespasses and sins" person can have faith.

You have a false idea of what death is. I would ask you this; if a man who receives the Spirit of God into his mortal body when he believes the gospel, is now alive, what made him dead in the first place? He is the same person physically after receiving the Spirit of God as he was before he received the Spirit of God. What is the difference in the man? Answer. the man who is permanently connected to God is alive and a man who is not connected to God is dead. The Spirit is life.Rom 6:23; 8:9

Another question for you. What was the coming of God in human form all about? Answer; it was to take away the cause of death, sin, by enduring the penalty for it, which is death. Death; the separation of God from the person. Jesus Christ our Lord lived as a man without sinning yet he died as a substitute for all sinners and according to Re 1:5 his blood washes away all sin. However, God is not obligated to give the Spirit of life to all but he graciously gives the Spirit to all those who hear and believe how he was propitiated by the perfect blood of Christ that he shed on the cross and that he was reconciled to the world by his sacrifice of himself and he will receive any and all who will come to him in the name of his son, Jesus Christ, and forgive their personal sins. God is not imputing sin at this time and the evidence for that is that he is not judging anyone because they sin.The scripture says in Heb 9:27 this;

" And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
See Re 20 for a description of this judgment.

A man who dies without being saved by Christ will face this judgment.

Let me assure you that God really was satisfied and his anger against sinner appeased by Christ because this is what he says. I believe him.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

When did he do it?



24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

This epistle was written in the mid 60 of century 1. Verse 26 is a "then and now" verse. AD 60 is in the "now." Calvinists do not believe the verses I have quoted in these comments. But because these words are true, these following words are reasonable and true.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

The "us" in V 18 is Paul and Timothy See 2 Cor 1:1

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.




[QUOTE="AustinC, post: 2615067, member: 16342"They cannot believe until God chooses to make them alive with Christ (by grace you are saved). Once God has graciously saved a person (by God's choice, not by man's choice), God gives that person the gift of faith to believe. No human can boast about their faith. It isn't their faith. It is God who gifted them the faith to believe. Read Ephesians 2:1-10 to understand.[/QUOTE]

There is nothing true about this statement.

 

[JD731]

I agree with the above.




This is not exactly what the OP states.
For the record, both I and scripture do appear to agree with the statement that God does use "the testimony of men to make known his salvation to other men". Scripture is full of examples of just such an event. However, you appear to believe, and the OP claims that this is the ONE AND ONLY way that God saves men. Both scripture and I do not support such a claim.

I am open for correction from the scriptures. Make your case from them and if it is true I promise to believe it.

 

[JD731]

You teach salvation by self-righteousness. The truth is, God, saves only those who cannot save themselves.

Luther says;

"First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only. For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and do not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation. But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such an one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved."
Martin Luther. (n.d.). The Bondage of the Will.

Luther is not God and his errors do not trump the scriptures. If you want to be taught by him then who can stop you.

However, I am going to give you three scriptures that says a man must believe and his believing is not a work.

1) A picture of sin and miraculous salvation is given in Numbers 21 and referenced by the Lord himself in John 3 as the way to be born again of the Spirit.

The israelites were bitten by fiery serpents and were dying as a result, a picture of sin. Moses asked God for a cure and he said to fashion a serpent and put it high on a pole and whoever looked will live. Who do you think looked? Maybe a million Israelites in the congregation, which meant they had to walk some distance to see the serpent on the pole. If they did not look they did not live. Looking is not a work of man.

2) Romans 4 tells us of the conversion of Abraham by referencing a historical account in Ge 15. His justification came when he believed God about he and Sarah having a son when they were past age. The whole of Romans 4 is dedicated to convincing us that believing is not a work but Calvinists ignore what is taught there.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

How anyone with any ability to reason can read these words and the remainder of Rom 4 and still argue that believing God is a work only highlights what a dark proposition religion without God really is.

3) Galatians 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Believing in Jesus Christ is not a work of the law according to this text and reasonable men will agree.
.

 

[kyredneck]

God is not saving anyone without the faithful witness of another person.

How many people have you and God saved?

 

[1689Dave]

Luther is not God and his errors do not trump the scriptures. If you want to be taught by him then who can stop you.

However, I am going to give you three scriptures that says a man must believe and his believing is not a work.

1) A picture of sin and miraculous salvation is given in Numbers 21 and referenced by the Lord himself in John 3 as the way to be born again of the Spirit.

The israelites were bitten by fiery serpents and were dying as a result, a picture of sin. Moses asked God for a cure and he said to fashion a serpent and put it high on a pole and whoever looked will live. Who do you think looked? Maybe a million Israelites in the congregation, which meant they had to walk some distance to see the serpent on the pole. If they did not look they did not live. Looking is not a work of man.

2) Romans 4 tells us of the conversion of Abraham by referencing a historical account in Ge 15. His justification came when he believed God about he and Sarah having a son when they were past age. The whole of Romans 4 is dedicated to convincing us that believing is not a work but Calvinists ignore what is taught there.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

How anyone with any ability to reason can read these words and the remainder of Rom 4 and still argue that believing God is a work only highlights what a dark proposition religion without God really is.

3) Galatians 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Believing in Jesus Christ is not a work of the law according to this text and reasonable men will agree.
.

So you are the man and Luther was clueless? This speaks loud and clear for the apostasy today.

 

[AustinC]

I did not recognize that God gives the gift of faith to anyone. God does not have several gifts to give out. to sinners. He has one gift and that gift is salvation. His principle for giving it is grace. It is grace because he is giving it to those who do not deserve it. The principle for receiving the gift of salvation is faith. This is stated plainly in scripture over and over and when a denier of this gracious offer of salvation is teaching contrary to what God said he should expect to spend an eternity in the lake of fire.

What I did say was that the Spirit of God, who immerses us into the body of Christ, which he is forming with individual believers in the gospel of Christ, gifts each member and places them as a functioning member of the body according to his own will and for the benefit of the whole body. I quoted from 1 Cor 12 where this is dealt with in depth.Faith is just one of the gifts that is given and it is not given to all who are in the body. I do not know why someone like you cannot read this and understand such an elementary teaching of the Christian faith.




You have a false idea of what death is. I would ask you this; if a man who receives the Spirit of God into his mortal body when he believes the gospel, is now alive, what made him dead in the first place? He is the same person physically after receiving the Spirit of God as he was before he received the Spirit of God. What is the difference in the man? Answer. the man who is permanently connected to God is alive and a man who is not connected to God is dead. The Spirit is life.Rom 6:23; 8:9

Another question for you. What was the coming of God in human form all about? Answer; it was to take away the cause of death, sin, by enduring the penalty for it, which is death. Death; the separation of God from the person. Jesus Christ our Lord lived as a man without sinning yet he died as a substitute for all sinners and according to Re 1:5 his blood washes away all sin. However, God is not obligated to give the Spirit of life to all but he graciously gives the Spirit to all those who hear and believe how he was propitiated by the perfect blood of Christ that he shed on the cross and that he was reconciled to the world by his sacrifice of himself and he will receive any and all who will come to him in the name of his son, Jesus Christ, and forgive their personal sins. God is not imputing sin at this time and the evidence for that is that he is not judging anyone because they sin.The scripture says in Heb 9:27 this;

" And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
See Re 20 for a description of this judgment.

A man who dies without being saved by Christ will face this judgment.

Let me assure you that God really was satisfied and his anger against sinner appeased by Christ because this is what he says. I believe him.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

When did he do it?



24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

This epistle was written in the mid 60 of century 1. Verse 26 is a "then and now" verse. AD 60 is in the "now." Calvinists do not believe the verses I have quoted in these comments. But because these words are true, these following words are reasonable and true.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

The "us" in V 18 is Paul and Timothy See 2 Cor 1:1

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.




[QUOTE="AustinC, post: 2615067, member: 16342"They cannot believe until God chooses to make them alive with Christ (by grace you are saved). Once God has graciously saved a person (by God's choice, not by man's choice), God gives that person the gift of faith to believe. No human can boast about their faith. It isn't their faith. It is God who gifted them the faith to believe. Read Ephesians 2:1-10 to understand.

There is nothing true about this statement.

Two things I observe you saying. First, you are claiming universal atonement for all.
Second, you are openly rejecting Ephesians 2:1-10.

 

[JD731]

That directly contradicts your claim. Verse 44 explicitly states that the FATHER draws ... the Father is not "another person". Verse 45 quotes the prophets as saying "they" (aka. "anyone being saved") are "taught of God" and "learned of the Father" ... once again, GOD the FATHER is not "another person".

Your "proof text" actually refutes your claim that "God is not saving anyone without the faithful witness of another person."

I am actually thrilled that you brought up these points. You are obviously a studious person who takes your faith seriously. I appreciate that. The things you have brought up here are excellent points and they will serve to illustrate the Calvinists lack of understanding biblical theology and will show the conclusion they come to are invalid.

First of all, you are wrong to think that John 6 is given in the context of salvation. Salvation is a New Testament doctrine. It is preached to Israel first, in the first 7 chapters of Acts, after the resurrection and ascension of Christ and his sending the Spirit from above, and then to the whole world. Salvation is based upon the "gospel of Chris" his death, burial, and resurrection and is defined as being born again of the Spirit. This puts believers in the church, the body of Christ. The message in John 6 is preached to Israel only and is in the context of the gospel of the kingdom of God. The beginning annocement of the kingdom at hand was given by John the Baptist, the fore runner of Jesus Christ, the Messiah of Israel. The command was for them to repent and to believe this gospel. The primary message to israel was Jesus is going to fulfill the OT promises first of all as their king. For proof of this you can go to the end of all the gospel accounts and read the sign on the cross above his the head of Jesus and all report that it said he was being crucified for claiming to be the King of the Jews.

Listen to these words of Jesus Christ from Matt 5:17

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, and the prophets. I came not to destroy but to fulfill. John 6 is the place where he fulfilled the OT prophecy of the “manna.” This narrative began on a high mountain where he fed 5000 men plus women and children. A mountain in scripture symbolizes a kingdom and the higher the mountain the greater the kingdom. A comparison of the claims of Jesus Christ and the demonstration of himself as their sustenance should have been instantly noted by those Jewish teachers who were there in the synagogue where the showdown took place. This why Jesus brought up the Law to these men. They had been studying this for 1500 years. The whole thing went over their heads because they had religion but their hard unbelieving heart could not discern truth.
If you are saved you have no excuse for missing the truth of John 6. The believer in this age has the Spirit of God to teach him.

I will deal with the remainder of your post later.

 

[George Antonios]

God is not saving anyone without the faithful witness of another person. Our New Testament is a compilation of the testimonies of eye witnesses of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ who heard his teachings. Anyone who is saved must believe what these men wrote. There is no other way that God is making himself and his doctrines known to us. The only people who ever saw the resurrected Lord Jesus, with the exception of Paul on the Damascus Road, (whose conversion is a typical teaching of God's purpose in saving a remnant of Israel), were those who were already believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, men were "justified" by faith in what God said to them. Their faith in what God said was "imputed" to them by God for righteousness. Believers were justified before the cross but their sins were not washed away. However, justification is only one of several parts of salvation. Salvation is accomplished when men receive the Holy Ghost and are sealed by him unto the day of redemption of the body. Now, since the cross, our Lord Jesus Christ is made unto us "justification." We believe what men have witnessed and reported about God.If we do not hear it or read it we cannot be saved because God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe and he says the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The scriptures say in Romans 10 that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God and whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. The rhetorical question is then, "how can they call on him in whom they have not believed and how shall they believe on him in whom they have not heard and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The first gentile to ever be saved, Cornelius of Acts 10, an Italian, desired to be saved and God did not save him until he had sent for a preacher of the gospel of Christ who preached to him and his household. Salvation for them was simultaneous with receiving the Holy Ghost into their mortal bodies, when they believed the witness of the preacher. Cornelius had all the evidence of a believer before he received the gift of the Spirit, but he was not saved until God gave him the Spirit, according to Peter in his defense of his actions to the Jews in the next chapter. I believe Peter's report. Here it is;

Acts 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

There are synonyms in this account.

The Gift of God, the Holy Ghost, salvation, eternal life. There is no greater instruction in salvation than this account and it has nothing to do with being elected before creation. Salvation from the penalty of sin comes by believing and it does not come until then. It comes to whoever believes, not to whoever is elected before creation. The witness must come through the agency of men. Acts 10 and 11 proves this beyond doubt. Salvation was not given to Cornelius only on this day but to gentiles who before this had not been given the Spirit.

I am a saved man preaching salvation through Christ to all who will believe.Will you believe?

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The blessing of Abraham is the Spirit of Christ , who is salvation, according to the text.

I would differ with you on certain points but certainly refreshing to see a sane scriptural post on salvation.

 

[JD731]

So you are the man and Luther was clueless? This speaks loud and clear for the apostasy today.

Lol! I think I would define apostasy is turning from biblical truth, not turning from what Luther says.

 

[JD731]

I would differ with you on certain points but certainly refreshing to see a sane scriptural post on salvation.

Thank you George. I think you agree that Jesus Christ our Lord should have preeminence and be glorified in our discussions. I pray he is pleased with my comments.

 

[JD731]

Two things I observe you saying. First, you are claiming universal atonement for all.
Second, you are openly rejecting Ephesians 2:1-10.

First, there is no adjective in front of the word atonement In the scriptures. Calvinists insist on putting one there. It is very dangerous to your soul for doing it.

Second, if you have something to teach from Ephesians 2:1-10 you should state it. It is unfair to expect me to comment on something you have not said.

 

[JD731]

How many people have you and God saved?

My point in my op was to show that God is not saving anyone without the human element present. I noted powerful scriptural examples. So far you have objected to my op but not with scriptural presentations. if I have missed any salvations without the human element you should point them out. I will be happy to admit I am wrong.

However, I caution you to avoid the story of the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8. You might remember that Philip had preached to the Samaritans and God took him away and sent him to Gaza to meet this man. He was reading Isa 53 but he was not saved. God knew where he was because he told Philip. Why did God need Philip?Philip asked the Eunuch if he understood what he was reading and his answer was “ how can I except some man guide me?” Philip began at the same scripture and preached to him Jesus and the Eunuch believed what Philip said about Jesus according to his own inspired testimony and he was saved and then baptized in water.

God used the human element in saving souls in every case. It is a fact of the scriptures and why will you not believe it because you can prove it yourself if you have a Bible? Why do you believe things that cannot be proven by the Bible?

Please understand that I am trying to provoke you to think reasonably and to believe what the divine record actually states.

 

[1689Dave]

Lol! I think I would define apostasy is turning from biblical truth, not turning from what Luther says.

So any teaching on scripture is false except yours? Have you ever read Luther's "Bondage of the Will"? It stands unrefuted until this day.

 

[Barry Johnson]

You teach salvation by self-righteousness. The truth is, God, saves only those who cannot save themselves.

Luther says;

"First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only. For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and do not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation. But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such an one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved."
Martin Luther. (n.d.). The Bondage of the Will.

why are you quoting Luther ?

 

[atpollard]

if I have missed any salvations without the human element you should point them out.

Adam
Abram (Abraham)
Moses
Samuel
Saul (Paul)

 

[atpollard]

why are you quoting Luther ?

Probably for the same reason that anyone quotes any theologian: They believe that theologian has correctly divided the word of God and expressed the truth better than they could.

Do you believe that Luther was reprobate and incapable of stating Biblical truth?

 

[atpollard]

Calvinists insist on putting one there. It is very dangerous to your soul for doing it.

Does that include placing "unlimited" in front of atonement by claiming that Christ died for those that He failed to save ... the tares, the goats, those whom he "never knew"?

 

[JD731]

So any teaching on scripture is false except yours? Have you ever read Luther's "Bondage of the Will"? It stands unrefuted until this day.

Dave, I appreciate conversing with you on this forum but Luther is not the source of my position about what God or man is like. I would caution you on making any man your final authority on any doctrine. We have a wonderful and glorious Bible and, if you are saved, the Holy Ghost indwelling us to teach us all truth.

1 Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

One thing I know absolutely and for sure, the Holy Ghost does not teach Calvinism through the words he has given us in his Bible. To get that teaching one must go to the words of men like Luther.