Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Yes its useful to read about Noah and the flood but we should be careful to recognise the narrative and not be tempted to follow the command to go build an Ark
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No Salvation Without the Human Element
- Thread starter JD731
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
ok without the book of Acts which is a description of the Actions of the Apostles . Pauls letters are where we get our Doctrines and instructions for the church today .Including how a person is saved . Acts is not a normative prescription of how one is saved today .
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Why are you changing the topic and moving the goal posts?
Point out where I have EVER stated that Paul is the normative example.
Point out where I have ever claimed to seen the risen Lord.
Point out where I have ever claimed to be an Apostle to the Gentiles.
The OP claims, and you are defending, the position that human testimony is the ONLY way that God saves Christians.
You demanded and example from "the Epistles" of someone saved without a human witness ... and I presented Paul in response. The claim in the OP has been refuted since God DID save someone without a human witness (Paul), so through a human witness IS NOT THE ONLY WAY that God saves. Your demand for an example in the Epistles has been provided in the testimony of Paul in Galatians 1:11-16.
Your above response is an irrelevant deflection that has nothing to do with the topic.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
I'm asking where in Paul's letters aside from The Acts of the apostles can you show me how we are saved today that doesn't involve hearing the Gospel ?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Where in James' letter can you show me how we are saved that involves hearing the Gospel?
(How narrow do you have to make the goal posts to prove that a human being preaching the gospel is the ONE AND ONLY way that God can save a person?)
Romans 1 (the heavens).
The two witnesses in Revelation (not people).
Outside of the Scripture, you have reports of God communicating with modern Muslims in visions.
Where is the verse in scripture, ANYWHERE, that says God CANNOT save without our help?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Have you ever read anything from him?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
As a practical counterpoint to the title and OP, is anyone seriously claiming that a person feeling crushed under the weight of despair, cannot check into a motel room, read the Gideon's Bible found in every room, and discover Jesus Christ, God the Father and ... "confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead" [Rom 10:9] and be saved?
Is such an event really IMPOSSIBLE for God without a human being to act as a verbal intermediary?
That is what the OP claims ... there is NO SALVATION without the HUMAN element.
I do not believe that is true.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. [Ephesians 2:4-10 NASB]
It is ALL ABOUT GOD, not about our helping God.
Sola fide ("by faith alone").
Sola gratia ("by grace alone").
Solo Christo ("through Christ alone").
Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone").
Is such an event really IMPOSSIBLE for God without a human being to act as a verbal intermediary?
That is what the OP claims ... there is NO SALVATION without the HUMAN element.
I do not believe that is true.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. [Ephesians 2:4-10 NASB]
It is ALL ABOUT GOD, not about our helping God.
Sola fide ("by faith alone").
Sola gratia ("by grace alone").
Solo Christo ("through Christ alone").
Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone").
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Of course . The bondage of the will .
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
I don't think even the cults say ' God cannot save us without our help "Where in James' letter can you show me how we are saved that involves hearing the Gospel?
(How narrow do you have to make the goal posts to prove that a human being preaching the gospel is the ONE AND ONLY way that God can save a person?)
Romans 1 (the heavens).
The two witnesses in Revelation (not people).
Outside of the Scripture, you have reports of God communicating with modern Muslims in visions.
Where is the verse in scripture, ANYWHERE, that says God CANNOT save without our help?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Not "save US without OUR help" ...
Save US without the help of "ANOTHER PERSON".
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Well if the bible says in 1 cor 1 it pleases God through the preaching to save those that believe the Gospel , whats the issue ?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Have you been able to disprove any of it?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
I only read parts . enough to know what I'm disagreeing with .
atpollard
Well-Known Member
"God is not saving anyone without the faithful witness of another person."
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
How can they hear without a preacher ?
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14¶How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
atpollard
Well-Known Member
So which is it?Man has been given a gift (Jesus), he either rejects it or accepts it. That's it. It's THAT simple. Really
I agree entirely with the OP. Great job.
"Man has been given a gift (Jesus), he either rejects it or accepts it."
or
"God is not saving anyone without the faithful witness of another person."
Am I saved by "accepting the gift" (however I learn of it) or am I saved by "the faithful witness of another person" (and no other way)?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
How did Moses learn about God? How did Saul/Paul? How are Muslims? ... OT, NT, 21stC ... God is unchanging and follows after His own council.
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." [Eph 2:10 NASB], so God has work for us to do, like preaching and teaching and all the "one another" tasks, but that is not the same as God does nothing without our effort.
...so God just drops a gift on the corner (or wherever in the world) and humans have to be smart enough and wise enough to pick God's gift from all the other gifts Satan has left around the same area. It's all on humans to decide. All praise to the human who chooses wisely!Man has been given a gift (Jesus), he either rejects it or accepts it. That's it. It's THAT simple. Really
I agree entirely with the OP. Great job.
...so God just drops a gift on the corner (or wherever in the world) and humans have to be smart enough and wise enough to pick God's gift from all the other gifts Satan has left around the same area. It's all on humans to decide. All praise to the human who chooses wisely!
Well I'm back after my computer crashed... Now to answer the OP and let me address the topic as I didn't need to read all this other mess... There is No Salvation Without The Human Element?... I agree but only one man is the human element... Jesus The Christ, the Son Of God 100%... GOD SAVES HIS OWN, ALONE!... Salvation is not a tandem operation, no matter what anyone says... ALL GLORY GOES TO CHRIST!!!... 100%... Brother Glen
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