1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Because he disagrees with you and shows you are wrong in your position.
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No Salvation Without the Human Element
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Here's the trade-off. If Calvin was right, you worship and idol and hate the true God passionately.
The word "atonement" does not mean salvation. You have a figure of atonement in the OT ceremonial Law of Moses that is bedrock teaching of the atonement of Christ that it pictures. Israel, as a collective entity, were atoned for by blood on the sixth feast day of their annual 7 feasts. Do you think the atonement that day was only for those Israelites who had a heart for God? It did not negate any of the personal sacrifices that God required Israel to bring to him. God was propitiated for collective Israel for a year by the blood that was put on the altar and the sins were carried away by a fit man into the wilderness where God did not remember them.
Calvinists have a sad perversion of the meaning of atonement and what it is. The taking away of sin makes reconciliation between the two parties possible. That is all it does. I don't think God is going to hold you men guilty for perverting his teaching of the atonement of Jesus Christ for the world.
The Calvinist mind is darkened by their religion.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Do you see how atonement and reconciliation in in the same context? Reconciliation is possible now because the wrath that sin caused has been removed is no longer a factor. You notice though that atonement that God has provided through the death of his Son must be "received." Reconciliation is a two way street.
Compare this;
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
(ask yourself why God would not be reconciled if the eternal blood was poured on the atar and the sin taken away into the wilderness. You would change that word world, to a limited elect but you would be perverting the doctrines of God by doing it.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Our Lord Jesus Christ has atoned for sin with his own blood and God is satisfied and his wrath is removed and sin is taken away. He is not imputing sin because it is taken away, if you believe God. Your religion does not. They oppose the very things God says.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Every individual must be reconciled to God. They must receive the atonement for themselves. They do that by faith that Christ has done what God through these ambassadors said he did.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
When you limit the atonement of Christ you deny what God says about his atonement. I think religions who preach that doctrine will be in the lake of fire. This is serious business.
No sin in this age for God to judge since he judged it prosecuted it in his Son and then raised him from the dead but that does not mean sinners who refuse to receive the atonement will escape answering for their sins because the Bible says this;
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Paul was stood listening to Stephen before his stoning
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
In the old testament they did not believe in 1 cor 15
or John 3 .16
or through the hearing of the Gosepl .
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Did the "atonement" in the Law of Moses cover the national sins of Egyptians who worshiped Set as their God? No, it was an atonement for God's chosen nation, and only for God's chosen nation.
Who is the "true Israel" according to the revelation of Christ in the Gospels and the Holy Spirit in the Epistles ... hint ... it was not all the biological decedents and it was not every person without exception. You need to really look at the TYPOLOGY that you are hanging your hat on. The only sacrifice that covered the sin of every man without exception was the animal that God killed to cover the nakedness of Adam ... because he was the only man alive at that point.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
How ironic! You actually believe in the blood thirsty God that everyone accuses Calvinists of preaching about (even though we don't). So nothing will sate the appetite of God to destroy everyone except a steady stream of blood (OT) and the Torture and Death of His Son (NT). That is not what THIS CALVINIST believes the blood in the OT and NT is all about. It was not GOD that needed to be fixed by the blood.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
... and tried to stop the stoning because Stephen was the human agent that God (in his limited ability to save) was forced to use to change the heart of Saul. Stephen shared the gospel and changed Saul's heart at his stoning. Is that REALLY your argument?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
No I'm simply saying we cannot say Saul wouldn't have heard the death , burial and resurection of Jesus can we ?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
who cares about Luther ?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
So in the OT, God was able to save people all by Himself. However in the NT Era ...
So when exactly did God lose this ability to save people? Was it at His incarnation? At his Crucifixion? At Pentecost? When did our help become ESSENTIAL?
That is the part of this that has bothered my from the first post. Not the fact that God CAN use people to reach other people, or the fact that God DOES use people to reach other people, but this claim of exclusivity ... that somehow God MUST use people to reach other people. When did God's arm suddenly become short?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
80 million Lutherans, for a start.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Can you show from the epistles how we are saved today that doesn't involve hearing the Gospel and believing it , to be saved ?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I already did ... Saul on the road to Damascus.
[Galatians 1:11-16 NIV]
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
This is the problem with Christians today . They give up their sense making to dead theologians from the Past .80 million Lutherans, for a start.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Thats the Book of Acts .
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Does Paul say his conversion is the normative experience of how everyone should be saved today? Have you seen the risen Lord ? Are you an Apostle to the Gentiles ?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Moses was not saved by believing in the death burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins .
I thought it prudent to return to these comments and maybe stamp out some ignorance as this thread begins to wind down and my op has been proved by the scriptures which have not been addressed by anyone except what you have offered from John 6.
First of all, salvation in the scriptures are defined by the scriptures as being born again of the Spirit. Therefore salvation from the penalty of sin is a New Testament doctrine that takes place in an instant when any man hearing and understanding and believing in their heart the gospel of Jesus Christ who is the only way for sinners to have their sins forgiven. Salvation from the power of sin (sanctification) is an on going work of the Spirit in the believer that will never be fully accomplished in this body and salvation from the presence of sin will be achieved when we receive the new glorified body to which believers in this age have been predestined. This is our hope as believers in Christ.This puts the trinitarian signature on God's salvation like is on everything else that is Godly.
In the OT where the term "saved" is used the word "shall" or "shall be saved" is usually accompanying it. This puts it as a future realization. This is not true of the New testament beginning in Acts. It is a present reality in the New Testament because the blood of Jesus has been shed.
Figuratively speaking, Israel is a single entity, a moral man with the law of God, seeking to be righteous through it but being condemned by it (read Rom 7 here). OT Israel is an illustration in plain view of God''s redemptive purposes and methods. He was born first in the flesh and walked in the flesh and could not by his own power resist sin. God made himself a sacrifice for their sins so he could redeem them as a single entity by calling on every one of them to repent and believe in the slain and resurrected Lord Jesus and they refused. When they all did that then he would return as their King with all of them saved. (see my verses below). You can read about their refusal in the first 7 chapters of the Acts and God's response to their unbelief in the following chapters with the main portion of his explanation of his actions being described in Rom 7 through 11 and the epistle to the Ephesians.
God always works through the second man. The new man. The man who has experienced a second birth, a spiritual birth. He illustrates this many, many times through his scriptures.Cain & Abel; Esau and Jacob; Ephraim and Judah the two brothers in Lk 15.etc.In the gospel accounts God has come and is preparing his Son Israel for their second birth. God's sacrifice will be offered.
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
This is Israel born of water, born after the flesh.
He will be born by the Spirit when the blood of the sacrifice is shed. What I am telling you is important because God is dealing with his son in John 6. Look at these verses and think of Israel collectively and in real time.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
This whole context from verse 1 through verse 21 should be read but you see how God is giving the condition for entering into his kingdom. A man must be born again. This chapter is primarily in the "kingdom" context. Now, here are the verse for consideration;
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise (of the Holy Ghost) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
This is an ethnic call to God's Son to be saved. The kingdom will be established when every one of them believes and not until.
Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whtsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will ot hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Here is the response of Israel in those days;
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him:
Beware, do not believe that Israel's refusal to receive the Spirit here negates God's covenants and his kingdom through them as promised in the OT. All Israel will be saved when and after the fullness of the gentiles be come in, which is at the completion of the church, the body of Jesus Christ that he is forming now in this age from among the gentiles.
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these thins.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I edited that for you. But I would remind you "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." [2 Timothy 3:16-17 NIV], so I am not sure why you are so intent on dividing scripture into such small parts (Gospels vs Acts vs Epistles).
Besides, an Epistle is a "letter" and Acts is an "Epistle" ... "In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about ..." it is written from Luke, to Theophilus.
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