No Salvation Without the Human Element

[Miss E]

So which is it?
"Man has been given a gift (Jesus), he either rejects it or accepts it."
or
"God is not saving anyone without the faithful witness of another person."

Am I saved by "accepting the gift" (however I learn of it) or am I saved by "the faithful witness of another person" (and no other way)?

Well someone either hears the Gospel from someone or they read it themselves, either way they have to have heard it from somewhere. I don't think a human element HAS to be involved, but the person who hears it (whatever way that is) makes the human free will choice to either accept or reject Jesus.

EDIT: OK, I agree that a human element is always involved since if you talk about someone reading a bible which was printed by human hands, yes. that is a human element. Disregard my above statement. Either way. God DOES get the glory. No matter what

 

[Miss E]

...so God just drops a gift on the corner (or wherever in the world) and humans have to be smart enough and wise enough to pick God's gift from all the other gifts Satan has left around the same area. It's all on humans to decide. All praise to the human who chooses wisely!

Wrong. Jesus gives us all a way to heaven, we have to choose Him or reject Him. That doesn't take away the glory God deserves and gets from being the merciful Giver who offers salvation. You're misunderstanding the whole purpose of a gift. The gifter gets the glory, not the reciever. Why would you praise a person that is given 100 dollars? He didn't DO anything to deserve it, but the person giving it gets all the glory for being merciful and kind enough to give said person the money. Pure logic. If you are wise enough in God to understand this parable.

Satan gives temptation, and temptation only, which leads to sin, which leads to death. God offers Life through His one and only son Jesus Christ. Amen. Glory to God in the highest!!

 

[JD731]

That is a nonsense statement: The implication of it is, Calvinists cannot be saved.

Sinners are saved by believing God. It is one thing to be deceived and deluded by false teaching but it is another to have a heart that cannot be corrected in spite of what the scriptures say in their context. The record we have came from God. Sinners are saved by believing it. I can post a hundred clear unambiguous statements that scriptures make that Calvinist do not believe as written. If salvation is by faith, one must ask faith in what? Calvinism"s systematic TULIP with "sovereign" grace (that the scriptures knows nothing about) thrown in?

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his (Abraham's in the context) sake alone, that it (righteousness) was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it (righteousness) shall be imputed, if we believe on him (the Father) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

Believing is not reading a plain statement and then arguing that it does not mean what it says.There is an "IF" in Rom 4:23. That is a condition no matter how many Calvinists say it is not.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Are the elect alone the ungodly among us or is the none that seek after God and the all who have fallen short of the glory of God that he has already mentioned the ungodly?

My salvation came when I believed God and cast myself upon him. I have full confidence that what he said is true. He gave the word and I provided the believing. We are reconciled to one another because the sin is washed away by the blood of Christ.That is a glorious truth.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Will you please supply the name of the first person who comes to your mind that has read the scriptures and has been saved but has never heard the gospel preached or had a human witness beforehand?

Just to say that I am a Gideon and I have known a couple of people who have been saved by reading the word without anyone else about. I have read of several more in Gideon magazines.

What does the word of God say?
James 1:18. 'Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth.......' Whose will? Just sayin'
1 Peter 1:23. '....Having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.'

However, God's usual method of bringing the word to sinners is through preaching or witnessing. 'For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.' Please note that it is not the preaching or the preacher that saves - it is God.

God is sovereign; He didn't have to save people through preaching. He could have done it by having them stand on their heads and recite the alphabet backwards. And if He wants He can use another method. We hear of Moslems coming to faith through dreams. I have no experience of that happening, but we must be careful not to limit the holy One of Israel (c.f. Psalms 115:3).

But turn for a moment to Acts 16:14. 'Now a Certain woman called Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God [that is, she was a Gentile who attended a Jewish synagogue]. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.' Now how was Lydia saved. Did she open her own heart to receive the word? Nope! Did Paul, by his wondrous oratory open her heart? Not that either. 'The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by God.'

You will understand these things eventually, when you stand before the throne of God with that vast crowd of every tribe, tongue, people and nation, and cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Revelation 7:9-10).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

My salvation came when I believed God and cast myself upon him. I have full confidence that what he said is true. He gave the word and I provided the believing. We are reconciled to one another because the sin is washed away by the blood of Christ.That is a glorious truth.

I am a Five Point believer in Definite Atonement (i.e. Calvinist) and I have exactly the same testimony, save that, as in the case of Lydia, God opened my heart to believe.

 

[Miss E]

Calvinist or whatever -insert denomination- you are, if you believe Christ as your Lord and Savior you are all good

 

[JD731]

Just to say that I am a Gideon and I have known a couple of people who have been saved by reading the word without anyone else about. I have read of several more in Gideon magazines.

What does the word of God say?
James 1:18. 'Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth.......' Whose will? Just sayin'
1 Peter 1:23. '....Having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.'

However, God's usual method of bringing the word to sinners is through preaching or witnessing. 'For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.' Please note that it is not the preaching or the preacher that saves - it is God.

God is sovereign; He didn't have to save people through preaching. He could have done it by having them stand on their heads and recite the alphabet backwards. And if He wants He can use another method. We hear of Moslems coming to faith through dreams. I have no experience of that happening, but we must be careful not to limit the holy One of Israel (c.f. Psalms 115:3).

But turn for a moment to Acts 16:14. 'Now a Certain woman called Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God [that is, she was a Gentile who attended a Jewish synagogue]. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.' Now how was Lydia saved. Did she open her own heart to receive the word? Nope! Did Paul, by his wondrous oratory open her heart? Not that either. 'The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by God.'

You will understand these things eventually, when you stand before the throne of God with that vast crowd of every tribe, tongue, people and nation, and cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Revelation 7:9-10).

Martin, I am glad for your interest in my op and that you gave us your thoughts. I must point out though that there is a human element in your examples.Those Gideon bibles were placed there by some person and it would be my educated guess that none of those people who believed were experiencing the gospel message of Jesus Christ for the very first time when they were saved. I would be very surprised if it were so.

....and Lydia. A believer in God and probably a proselyte. The fact that the apostle Paul was preaching there sort of makes my point. Would God have opened her heart to salvation through Jesus Christ if she continued on believing what she did before Paul showed up with the gospel? I trow not.What was the first thing that was important in this story, God opening Lydia's heart, as you seem to suggest, or Paul preaching the gospel to her? Religion will not get anyone to heaven. Only faith in Jesus Christ will do that job.What came first, God opening Lydia's heart or Paul preaching the gospel to her? Did you ever think that maybe the gospel of Christ was the method of God to open her heart?

Now, my Bible says faith comes by hearing the word of God. No one can hear without a preacher. What if God opened up a heart and there was no one there to preach Christ to them. Would they still be saved? If so, we could say that salvation comes by God opening up a heart and we would be right. Is that what you say? God opening up the heart is the power of God unto salvation? The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ ........and God opening up the heart?

Consider this and disagree if you will but salvation is a NT doctrine because it is accomplished when sinners receive the gift of God, the Spirit of God, who is eternal life. Rom 6:23 Rom 8:9, 11. This is only possible because the blood Jesus Christ shed washes away sin, read Titus 3:5 and Re 1:5 here.The Holy Spirit of God can dwell in our mortal bodies only after the sin issue is dealt with. The above verses will tell us how and when that happens for the sinner. So, receiving the Spirit of God is synonymous with being saved.

With that in mind, consider this;

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You have one verse in Acts, whose main thing is to present a historical account, and you have made it an essential doctrine of the faith in the face of plain truths given all through the scriptures whose main goal is to explain the history.

 

[Miss E]

29 For whom He foreknew, (that is, whom He KNEW WHO WOULD CHOOSE HIM) He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; (so how could God have called those whom did not have a choice to answer the call or not?) whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)

Scripture is plain. It is proof that God calls everyone to repentance and to belief in Him, but not all choose to come to Him.

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent. (Acts 17:30)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@JD731,
You seem to be labouring under the delusion that Calvinists do not believe that people need to believe in Christ in order to be saved. To put it no more strongly, this is not true. The issue between us is whether people will believe unless God first does a work upon their hearts. This, the Scriptures tell us, they will not do.
John 3:19. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men preferred darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
John 10:26. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep...." [Note that He does not say, "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe"]
Acts 13:48b. 'And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.'
1 Corinthians 2:14. 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.'
Ephesians 1:4-6. '....Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.'

Let us consider the case of Lazarus. Lazarus is dead (John 11:14). He has been dead for quite some time. How shall we raise Lazarus from his tomb? Well, we can point out to him the seriousness of his position. Being dead is not a good state to be in, we might say. We can tell him how much better it is to be alive and how much more fun he would have if he were. We can even try telling him how much God loves him, how much He wants Lazarus to stop being dead and what a great plan God has for his life; we can reason with him, we can plead with him, but it won’t do any good because Lazarus can’t hear us. He’s dead.

In fact, it’s even worse than that, because, quite frankly, Lazarus is a bit of a stinker (v39); he’s in a bad odour with God. He’s not only dead, but he’s dead in trespasses and sins. He has no right to come back to life. There is nothing in Lazarus that makes him worthy of life (Titus 3:3-7). There’s nothing that we can do for Lazarus in our own strength, but when the almighty Son of God declares, “Lazarus, come forth” (v43), then although he has died, and although he is bound hand and foot, Lazarus will indeed come forth from among the dead to new birth (c.f. John 5:25).

Jonah knew it (Jonah 2:9). The great crowd around the throne at the last day will know it. Why don't you know it? 'Salvation is of the LORD'

 

[Barry Johnson]

@JD731,
You seem to be labouring under the delusion that Calvinists do not believe that people need to believe in Christ in order to be saved. To put it no more strongly, this is not true. The issue between us is whether people will believe unless God first does a work upon their hearts. This, the Scriptures tell us, they will not do.
John 3:19. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men preferred darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
John 10:26. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep...." [Note that He does not say, "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe"]
Acts 13:48b. 'And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.'
1 Corinthians 2:14. 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.'
Ephesians 1:4-6. '....Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.'

Let us consider the case of Lazarus. Lazarus is dead (John 11:14). He has been dead for quite some time. How shall we raise Lazarus from his tomb? Well, we can point out to him the seriousness of his position. Being dead is not a good state to be in, we might say. We can tell him how much better it is to be alive and how much more fun he would have if he were. We can even try telling him how much God loves him, how much He wants Lazarus to stop being dead and what a great plan God has for his life; we can reason with him, we can plead with him, but it won’t do any good because Lazarus can’t hear us. He’s dead.

In fact, it’s even worse than that, because, quite frankly, Lazarus is a bit of a stinker (v39); he’s in a bad odour with God. He’s not only dead, but he’s dead in trespasses and sins. He has no right to come back to life. There is nothing in Lazarus that makes him worthy of life (Titus 3:3-7). There’s nothing that we can do for Lazarus in our own strength, but when the almighty Son of God declares, “Lazarus, come forth” (v43), then although he has died, and although he is bound hand and foot, Lazarus will indeed come forth from among the dead to new birth (c.f. John 5:25).

Jonah knew it (Jonah 2:9). The great crowd around the throne at the last day will know it. Why don't you know it? 'Salvation is of the LORD'

Should calvernists preach at the cemetery?

 

[JD731]

@JD731,


Let us consider the case of Lazarus. Lazarus is dead (John 11:14). He has been dead for quite some time. How shall we raise Lazarus from his tomb? Well, we can point out to him the seriousness of his position. Being dead is not a good state to be in, we might say. We can tell him how much better it is to be alive and how much more fun he would have if he were. We can even try telling him how much God loves him, how much He wants Lazarus to stop being dead and what a great plan God has for his life; we can reason with him, we can plead with him, but it won’t do any good because Lazarus can’t hear us. He’s dead.

"Martin Marprelate, I gotta say that I like your passion. You obviously put thought and effort and time into your comments. I wish you had not just ignored my argument but shown me where I am off track. But no matter, Lazarus is not intended to be a type of someone being born again. The new birth is not a resurrection from the dead. Sinners are not saved when they are resurrected, they are saved when they look. Obviously Lazarus could not look. He was dead and in a dark grave where he could not see.Besides Lazarus was not a lost man, he was a just man when he died. Lazarus is a type but not of the born again experience.

Jesus Christ had drawn the typology of the new birth in John 3 when he referenced Numbers 21. The people who received the new birth there could all see. They all were cognizant of their condition of dying. They knew they had been bitten of a fiery serpent and that the bite meant death in every case. What did Jesus say was the remedy? He said the brass serpent on the pole was the remedy, the only remedy. He said "look and live." Jesus Christ in his answer to Nicodemus when he asked "how can these things be" did not have the same view of the sinner as you have. He thought the sinner could hear and he thought the sinner could see and he thought the sinner could reason. He did not view the sinner as having on grave clothes and in a tomb and in a state where he could never look and live. You just have to look at this yourself;

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Paul interpreted this way in 2 Cor;

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Believing in reality is equal to looking in the type. What good would it have done for Paul to be speaking to a bunch of corpses in a dark tomb with grave clothes? However, if they had been bitten by the serpent and was facing death just looking as the means for the cure would be a glorious piece of good news.

It is a miraculous salvation for those who will look. I hope you have looked.

 

[Sai]

There are more than two hundred places in the New Testament where the condition for salvation is spelled out, and in all these, cases faith or belief is given as the one and only condition.

One must believe that Jesus has accomplished the salvation work on one's behalf. To be saved, one must believe not just that He died, but that He died for one's own sins. If one believes that Yeshua the Messiah died for his sins, that presupposes that one has confessed that he is a sinner. If Yeshua died for one's sins, obviously it means that he is a sinner. So one must believe that Yeshua died for his sins as his substitute, was buried and rose again, and therefore has provided salvation. Thus, one trusts Yeshua for his salvation.

This is the condition of salvation: faith must be placed in the Messiah as one's substitute for and as one's Savior from the penalty of sin.

First the word “faith” is used as “conviction that something is true.” Secondly, faith is used as “trust.” Thirdly, faith is used as “persuaded,” and it is stronger than mere opinion, though it is weaker than foreknowledge. Fourthly, faith is used as “belief based upon the facts of knowledge” (Rom. 10:14). And fifth, faith must have an object. The object of faith is God, while the content of faith is the death of the Messiah for one's sins, His burial and Resurrection.

If we are saved because of our faith then we aren't saved by what our faith is in. We are saved thru believing in the finished work not because we believe the finished work. The work of God saves and we receive the benefit of that work by trusting that that work alone is sufficient payment in the eyes of God our Father to satisfy His requirement for our sins, that payment is the blood of the only begotten Son of God.
Indeed my brothers and sisters the blood of Messiah is of infinite value.

 

[Reformed]

Scripture emphatically denies such a premise. Here's a threefold denial of any human involvement in the birth from above:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

Nothing but net.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

"Martin Marprelate, I gotta say that I like your passion. You obviously put thought and effort and time into your comments. I wish you had not just ignored my argument but shown me where I am off track.

Thank you for your kind words. The fact is, I seldom post on this forum. The discussions are rarely edifying and no one ever changes his mind. I only broke in because someone mentioned the Gideons.

But no matter, Lazarus is not intended to be a type of someone being born again. The new birth is not a resurrection from the dead. Sinners are not saved when they are resurrected, they are saved when they look. Obviously Lazarus could not look. He was dead and in a dark grave where he could not see.Besides Lazarus was not a lost man, he was a just man when he died. Lazarus is a type but not of the born again experience.

I don't think you are quite right. If you will look at Ephesians 1:17-21, especially at verses 19-20, you will see that it takes the same Amighty power of God to raise a sinner from spiritual death as it took to raise the Lord Jesus Christ from physical death - in other words, a mighty miracle.

Jesus Christ had drawn the typology of the new birth in John 3 when he referenced Numbers 21. The people who received the new birth there could all see. They all were cognizant of their condition of dying. They knew they had been bitten of a fiery serpent and that the bite meant death in every case. What did Jesus say was the remedy? He said the brass serpent on the pole was the remedy, the only remedy. He said "look and live." Jesus Christ in his answer to Nicodemus when he asked "how can these things be" did not have the same view of the sinner as you have. He thought the sinner could hear and he thought the sinner could see and he thought the sinner could reason. He did not view the sinner as having on grave clothes and in a tomb and in a state where he could never look and live. You just have to look at this yourself;

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Amen! I don't disagree with any of that. No one suggests that people can be saved without faith (except perhaps in the case of imbeciles and those dying in infancy). The question is, where does that faith come from? Is it generated by those who are dead in trespasses and sins, or does it come from God?

Paul interpreted this way in 2 Cor;

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Believing in reality is equal to looking in the type. What good would it have done for Paul to be speaking to a bunch of corpses in a dark tomb with grave clothes? However, if they had been bitten by the serpent and was facing death just looking as the means for the cure would be a glorious piece of good news.

You ask what good it would have done for Paul to be speaking to a bunch of corpses.
'The hand of the LORD came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed, they were very dry.
And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" You presumably would answer, no. But Ezekiel is wiser. So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know"' (Ezekiel 37:1-3).

Strangely, I was preaching this Lord's day on the Dry Bones as part of a series on the Gospel in Ezekiel. But note that though it is Ezekiel who is to prophesy or preach the word of the Lord, it is God Himself who will
1. Cause breath (or spirit, Heb ruach) to enter into the bones.
2. Put sinews and flesh on them.
3. Cover them with skin.

Here is some typology for you! It is man who does the preaching, but it is God who makes alive so that the dry bones, those dead in trespasses and sins, may hear, 'and those who hear will live' (John 5:25).

It is a miraculous salvation for those who will look. I hope you have looked.

Amen! Miraculous indeed! First God opened my eyes, and then I looked.

Here is my sermon on the Dry Bones, just in case you're interested.

And here's an appropriate hymn:

Lord, I was blind! I could not see
In Thy marred image any grace;
But now the beauty of Thy face
In radiant vision dawns on me.

Lord, I was deaf! I could not hear
The thrilling music of Thy voice;
But now I hear Thee and rejoice,
And all thine uttered words are dear.

Lord, I was dumb! I could not speak
The grace and glory of Thy name;
But now, as touched with living flame,
My lips Thine eager praises wake.

Lord, I was dead! I could not stir
My lifeless soul to come to Thee;
But now, since Thou hast quickened me,
I rise from death's dark sepulchre.

Lord, Thou hast made the blind to see,
The deaf to hear, the dumb to speak,
The dead to live; and lo! I break
The bonds of my captivity.' [William Tidd Matson, 1833-99]

 

[AustinC]

Wrong. Jesus gives us all a way to heaven, we have to choose Him or reject Him. That doesn't take away the glory God deserves and gets from being the merciful Giver who offers salvation. You're misunderstanding the whole purpose of a gift. The gifter gets the glory, not the reciever. Why would you praise a person that is given 100 dollars? He didn't DO anything to deserve it, but the person giving it gets all the glory for being merciful and kind enough to give said person the money. Pure logic. If you are wise enough in God to understand this parable.

Satan gives temptation, and temptation only, which leads to sin, which leads to death. God offers Life through His one and only son Jesus Christ. Amen. Glory to God in the highest!!

Let's just pat ourselves on the back for the great choice we made.

God had no plan other than to toss his gift down on the street corner and it was up to us to walk to that street corner, do the research on the gift and then choose to take it for ourselves while others just walked on by or kicked the gift down the street. All hail our great and mighty capacity to choose! To our minds be all the glory and praise!

Miss E, your position absolutely robs God of the glory he deserves. It removes grace from the equation and it lifts you up as the great one who chose God. You turn a gift that had your name on it and was specially wrapped and chosen just for you and you make it a gift that was of such little value to God that he just tossed it down on the street corner and required you to go find it and choose to open it.

In your analogy, you are not given $100 as a gift. The $100 is tucked inside an old nike shoebox that is sitting on a corner with 500 other shoeboxes. You had to rummage around all those boxes and by your own wise choosing, you picked the shoebox with the $100 in it. I'm wise enough to realize that you glorify yourself and treat God with disrespect.

God chose you out of your filthy existence as a slave to sin. He ransomed you, specifically, and purchased your redemption with his blood. He saved you out of your bondage. ...and you think you chose God. How pathetic and self-glorifying your position is. When I recognized that I held that same thought as a free-will proponent, I repented of my pride and bowed my knee to the amazing grace of God in choosing to redeem me, a vile and worthless sinner. How I wish you could see the danger of your position.

 

[JD731]

Thank you for your kind words. The fact is, I seldom post on this forum. The discussions are rarely edifying and no one ever changes his mind. I only broke in because someone mentioned the Gideons.

I don't think you are quite right. If you will look at Ephesians 1:17-21, especially at verses 19-20, you will see that it takes the same Amighty power of God to raise a sinner from spiritual death as it took to raise the Lord Jesus Christ from physical death - in other words, a mighty miracle.

Amen! I don't disagree with any of that. No one suggests that people can be saved without faith (except perhaps in the case of imbeciles and those dying in infancy). The question is, where does that faith come from? Is it generated by those who are dead in trespasses and sins, or does it come from God?

You ask what good it would have done for Paul to be speaking to a bunch of corpses.
'The hand of the LORD came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed, they were very dry.
And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" You presumably would answer, no. But Ezekiel is wiser. So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know"' (Ezekiel 37:1-3).

Strangely, I was preaching this Lord's day on the Dry Bones as part of a series on the Gospel in Ezekiel. But note that though it is Ezekiel who is to prophesy or preach the word of the Lord, it is God Himself who will
1. Cause breath (or spirit, Heb ruach) to enter into the bones.
2. Put sinews and flesh on them.
3. Cover them with skin.

Here is some typology for you! It is man who does the preaching, but it is God who makes alive so that the dry bones, those dead in trespasses and sins, may hear, 'and those who hear will live' (John 5:25).

Amen! Miraculous indeed! First God opened my eyes, and then I looked.

Here is my sermon on the Dry Bones, just in case you're interested.

And here's an appropriate hymn:

Lord, I was blind! I could not see
In Thy marred image any grace;
But now the beauty of Thy face
In radiant vision dawns on me.

Lord, I was deaf! I could not hear
The thrilling music of Thy voice;
But now I hear Thee and rejoice,
And all thine uttered words are dear.

Lord, I was dumb! I could not speak
The grace and glory of Thy name;
But now, as touched with living flame,
My lips Thine eager praises wake.

Lord, I was dead! I could not stir
My lifeless soul to come to Thee;
But now, since Thou hast quickened me,
I rise from death's dark sepulchre.

Lord, Thou hast made the blind to see,
The deaf to hear, the dumb to speak,
The dead to live; and lo! I break
The bonds of my captivity.' [William Tidd Matson, 1833-99]

Thank you for that. It helps. However, it brings some questions to my mind. One question; how often do you preach on being born again from John 3 where the context is to deal with the subject directly? Second, if you did preach from John 3 on being born again could you use the same points you used when you preach on the subject from the resurrection of Lazarus and the dry bones of Ezekiel? If your answer is no, what would be different?

You see, the typology given in Ezekiel and Lazarus are teaching the same truth but it is not of the born again experience of a man. There is nothing in those passages about a cross or a dying savoir. Salvation is not predicated upon a sinner being raised from the dead but a savoir being raised from the dead. Calvinists say that the sinner can not know anything about God yet Jesus said this to Nicodemus; Verse 10 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things"? Most people will agree that Nicodemus is a lost man here. Jesus is not treating him as if he is likened to a man who knows nothing in the grave like in the case of Lazarus. The question that Jesus was answering was the third question he asked in verse 9; "how can these things be?' He takes verse 10 through verse 21 to answer this question. He says a physical and earthly illustration of the new birth is in the actual event that happened in Numbers 21, an event a ruler of the Jews would be very aware of. The story is of sinning Israelites being bitten by fiery serpents that brings sure death. How can they be cured. Well, God tells Moses to make a replica of the serpent out of brass and put it on a pole and tell the people if they will look at the serpent on the pole they will live.

If you have ever read how the camp of Israel is set up you will understand that the pole set up in the camp could not be seen of all the people. There were more than likely in excess of one million Israelites at that time. They would have had to get to the pole to look at it and if they did they would live. It was nothing short of miraculous that one would be able to live just by looking at the brass serpent on the pole but that is what Jesus said to Nicodemus when he asked "how can these things be." He said, except the son of man be lifted up as the serpent was in the wilderness no one could be born again and then only if they believed on him.

Now, there might be a disgreement between readers of the Bible about whether the story of Lazarus or the Ezekiel passage is teaching about how a sinner is saved, and there is, because I am challenging your interpretation of those stories, but there can not be any disagreement as to whether Jesus Christ is dealing with how a man is born again. Disagreement here would be defined as unbelief.

I am not just trying to win an argument here. I know Calvinists are wrong because of what they teach.. Jesus says "look and live" and Calvinists say "live and look." That is the difference between our beliefs. That is 180 degrees different.I hope you will consider these things.

 

[Miss E]

Let's just pat ourselves on the back for the great choice we made.

God had no plan other than to toss his gift down on the street corner and it was up to us to walk to that street corner, do the research on the gift and then choose to take it for ourselves while others just walked on by or kicked the gift down the street. All hail our great and mighty capacity to choose! To our minds be all the glory and praise!

Miss E, your position absolutely robs God of the glory he deserves. It removes grace from the equation and it lifts you up as the great one who chose God. You turn a gift that had your name on it and was specially wrapped and chosen just for you and you make it a gift that was of such little value to God that he just tossed it down on the street corner and required you to go find it and choose to open it.

In your analogy, you are not given $100 as a gift. The $100 is tucked inside an old nike shoebox that is sitting on a corner with 500 other shoeboxes. You had to rummage around all those boxes and by your own wise choosing, you picked the shoebox with the $100 in it. I'm wise enough to realize that you glorify yourself and treat God with disrespect.

God chose you out of your filthy existence as a slave to sin. He ransomed you, specifically, and purchased your redemption with his blood. He saved you out of your bondage. ...and you think you chose God. How pathetic and self-glorifying your position is. When I recognized that I held that same thought as a free-will proponent, I repented of my pride and bowed my knee to the amazing grace of God in choosing to redeem me, a vile and worthless sinner. How I wish you could see the danger of your position.

HOW is it robbing God of the glory? HE GAVE THE GIFT. You don't give the person who receives the gift the glory, because the one who GIVES IT is the one that is due the glory! You have a screwed idea of what glory is my friend.

God OFFERING THAT GIFT OF SALVATION IS HIS GRACE. how am I robbing God of His great grace he gives to all? EVERY SINGLE PERSON HAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO RECEIVE SALVATION.

YOU make God out to be a God who FORCES who will choose Him or not. That is not love. Forcing someone to love you by choosing that person from the beginning, robbing them of their very will, is not a God of love. I refuse to believe God is a dictator as you believe he is, OR do I choose to believe that self-righteous thing you and others blind to this ideology want yourselves to receive which, in saying you were CHOSEN by GOD, is making YOU seem special when none of us are special by any means at all! NONE OF US DESERVES HEAVEN, NOBODY!. Why are you putting yourself on such a high pedestal to say you were BORN to receive grace by God with no conscious choice of your own?

Ridiculous!!

But if you have chosen to believe upon Jesus and make Him your Lord, you're still saved. But if you believe you were hand picked as a special star by God, your witness when you try and tell others about Jesus will make them hate you and God for giving God the choice to condemn or save. Men condemn themselves or choose to let God save them. That's it. Case in point.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Thank you for that. It helps. However, it brings some questions to my mind. One question; how often do you preach on being born again from John 3 where the context is to deal with the subject directly? Second, if you did preach from John 3 on being born again could you use the same points you used when you preach on the subject from the resurrection of Lazarus and the dry bones of Ezekiel? If your answer is no, what would be different?

My church endeavours to preach 'the whole counsel of God' (Acts of the Apostles 20:26-27). If your church is, in effect, preaching John 3:16 over and over again, it is not fulfilling its mandate.

You see, the typology given in Ezekiel and Lazarus are teaching the same truth but it is not of the born again experience of a man.

With respect, it is. I only brought up Ezekiel 37 because you asked what good it would be for Paul to preach to people in their graves. People are spiritually dead until God uses the preaching of the Gospel to bring them to life. Please read 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:1-10 until you understand this. There is nothing in those passages about a cross or a dying savoir.

Salvation is not predicated upon a sinner being raised from the dead but a savoir being raised from the dead.

It is, of course, both those things.

Calvinists say that the sinner can not know anything about God yet Jesus said this to Nicodemus; Verse 10 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things"? Most people will agree that Nicodemus is a lost man here. Jesus is not treating him as if he is likened to a man who knows nothing in the grave like in the case of Lazarus.

But He is! He absolutely is! Nicodemus hasn't got a clue, That is why the Lord Jesus tells him, "Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus needed something that all his book-learning and religious background couldn't give him. And our Lord goes on the speak of the need to be born of 'water and the Spirit.' And if Nicodemus was such a great O.T. teacher he would have picked up the reference to Ezekiel 36:25-27.

The question that Jesus was answering was the third question he asked in verse 9; "how can these things be?' He takes verse 10 through verse 21 to answer this question. He says a physical and earthly illustration of the new birth is in the actual event that happened in Numbers 21, an event a ruler of the Jews would be very aware of. The story is of sinning Israelites being bitten by fiery serpents that brings sure death. How can they be cured. Well, God tells Moses to make a replica of the serpent out of brass and put it on a pole and tell the people if they will look at the serpent on the pole they will live.

If you have ever read how the camp of Israel is set up you will understand that the pole set up in the camp could not be seen of all the people. There were more than likely in excess of one million Israelites at that time. They would have had to get to the pole to look at it and if they did they would live. It was nothing short of miraculous that one would be able to live just by looking at the brass serpent on the pole but that is what Jesus said to Nicodemus when he asked "how can these things be." He said, except the son of man be lifted up as the serpent was in the wilderness no one could be born again and then only if they believed on him.

There is nothing in all that to which a Calvinist would disagree. I don't know why you think there would be. But the typology in the passage is very challenging. Why a serpent? Where else in the Bible do you find a fiery or red serpent? Have a think about it. Also, you don't mention verse 13. Compare it with Proverbs 30:4. The Lord Jesus is preaching Himself to Nicodemus through the O.T. as the eternal, Divine Son of God. And that is another vital aspect of the Gospel. J.W.s believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, but they don't know who He is, and they don't understand the New Birth.

Now, there might be a disagreement between readers of the Bible about whether the story of Lazarus or the Ezekiel passage is teaching about how a sinner is saved, and there is, because I am challenging your interpretation of those stories, but there can not be any disagreement as to whether Jesus Christ is dealing with how a man is born again. Disagreement here would be defined as unbelief.

Your understanding of the New Birth is not wrong, but incomplete.

I am not just trying to win an argument here. I know Calvinists are wrong because of what they teach.. Jesus says "look and live" and Calvinists say "live and look." That is the difference between our beliefs. That is 180 degrees different.I hope you will consider these things.

Salvation is so much greater, and more wonderful, than you understand. It is God saying, 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you' (Jeremiah 31:3).

 

[JD731]

My church endeavours to preach 'the whole counsel of God' (Acts of the Apostles 20:26-27). If your church is, in effect, preaching John 3:16 over and over again, it is not fulfilling its mandate.
With respect, it is. I only brought up Ezekiel 37 because you asked what good it would be for Paul to preach to people in their graves. People are spiritually dead until God uses the preaching of the Gospel to bring them to life. Please read 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:1-10 until you understand this. There is nothing in those passages about a cross or a dying savoir. It is, of course, both those things.
But He is! He absolutely is! Nicodemus hasn't got a clue, That is why the Lord Jesus tells him, "Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus needed something that all his book-learning and religious background couldn't give him. And our Lord goes on the speak of the need to be born of 'water and the Spirit.' And if Nicodemus was such a great O.T. teacher he would have picked up the reference to Ezekiel 36:25-27.

There is nothing in all that to which a Calvinist would disagree. I don't know why you think there would be. But the typology in the passage is very challenging. Why a serpent? Where else in the Bible do you find a fiery or red serpent? Have a think about it. Also, you don't mention verse 13. Compare it with Proverbs 30:4. The Lord Jesus is preaching Himself to Nicodemus through the O.T. as the eternal, Divine Son of God. And that is another vital aspect of the Gospel. J.W.s believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, but they don't know who He is, and they don't understand the New Birth.

Your understanding of the New Birth is not wrong, but incomplete.

Salvation is so much greater, and more wonderful, than you understand. It is God saying, 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you' (Jeremiah 31:3).

Being born again is not a resurrection. It is never pictured that way in the scriptures. Resurrection has to do with the body. Salvation has to do with the soul, the heart. Being born again will not change the body but it will change the heart. The body of a born again man awaits it's change at the resurrection but the heart is changed in an instant.The only creature who is eligible for the new birth is one who has intellect, reason, and will. That is also the only creature who can sin because sin is the transgression of the law. Where there is no law there is no transgression the scripture says. An unsaved man is not robbed of his senses. If he were he could not sin and know it. He has intellect, reason, and will. However, he is absent the Spirit of life. He is born that way. That is the image of Adam after the fall. The lost man is in the image of Adam, soul and body. The image of Jesus Christ, the image of the born again man is soul, body, and Spirit. When the scriptures, Eph 2:1 for instance, says a man is dead in his trespasses and sins. Does that mean he is laying around in grave clothes with no capacity to think and reason? No, if he were in that condition someone would get a shovel and burying him before he started stinking. What death means to a man today is the same thing it meant to Adam after he sinned. He was dead spiritually, meaning the Spirit of God, the possession of whom had made him a tripartite creature was no longer with him because he cannot dwell with sin. That is the biblical meaning of death, separation. That is all it means. Sin is the cause of separation and death, both spiritual and physical is the result. Physical death is a separation of the soul and the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the Spirit from the man.Jesus Christ was a tripartite man from his conception.

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. Jesus Christ our Lord died on the cross as our substitute, all who have intellect, reason, and will, and he died as Adam did, both spiritually and physically and his body was placed in a tomb, his soul went to paradise, and his Spirit went to God who gave it while he was three days in the grave. However, death did not have any sin to charge him with and could not hold him and he rose from the dead, the Spirit quickening his body and his soul possessing the glorified body.

In Acts 2, after the resurrection and in due time he sent his Spirit as if it was rain from heaven in such abundance to immerse all Israel and later all the world, that whosoever would open their mouths and drink would have this life. No one can charge for the rain because there is too much of it. The Spirit was not infused on a certain few and no one was forced to drink, but the Spirit is the life of God who will indwell whoever drinks and is the life of the believer in Jesus because he was the life in him.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The gift of righteousness above is the Spirit and the operative word is "abundance."

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

How does one get the Spirit? Here it is;

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Martin Marprelate, please don't think I am trying to be snarky or offensive because I am glad for the opportunity to converse with you but I charge that the Calvinist does not preach the truth about how a man is saved from his sins, among many other things.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Salvation occurs for the sinner when he receives the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Chrsi and that requires intellect, reason, and will on the part of the sinner.

 

[Miss E]

Calvinists preach a God that forces people to love Him which is a FALSE GOSPEL and it HURTS the Truth when witnessing to unsaved folk by them essentially saying 'you are either chosen by God or you were not, your choice (AKA faith to believe) doesn't matter one quack'. You guys can word it and dress it up as deceitfully as you want but that above is in essence what ya'll believe and what ya'll preach. Which I think HURTS not only the Body of Believers but the unsaved who will see God as a God who picks based on whom He likes and not based on the Faith each person should ought to have in order to believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation.