No such thing as "free will"

[Silverhair]

Proverbs 16:4 JPS Tanakh 1917
"The LORD hath made every things for His own purpose, Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

I know you are trying to make some point but what is it. Do you think I do not know that God is sovereign. You just want to make God subservient to your theology.

Deal with the verses that I posted, respond to them.

 

[BasketFinch]

Did not think you were a calvinist. Augustine was the one that started the ball rolling for what became Calvinism.

My conclusion still stands "Calvinist determinism when taken to it's logical conclusion is not God honoring."

I trust what the bible says but not what comes from the calvinist theology.

God wrote the names of those he'd save in his Lamb's Book of Life before he created the world where the fall would occur and sin enter so that humankind would need saving.

 

[Reformed1689]

Actually I did, I trusted in the finished work of Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

And what is the gift of God
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So we are saved because we believe the gospel message
Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

And what is the message we are to believe
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

You have to accept this truth
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

His death paid the sin debt for all but we are saved by faith in the risen Son.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

And here is the Gordian Knot that we all struggle with.

God chose us "in Him" {Christ} before the foundation of the world
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

But we are only "in Him" {Christ} when we believe.
Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
Joh 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
Joh 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

Oh so you think you believed on your own and that is what saved you? Got it, works based salvation. Humanism.

 

[Reformed1689]

Once again you ignore what God desires, which is that all men would come to salvation. Logically if not all do there can only be one of two reasons.
1] God really did not want all men to be saved which would cause us to question His character
or
2] Man really has a free will and some believe unto salvation and some did not unto condemnation. Like Christ Jesus said
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

There you go adding words to the text. God did not say "He desired all individuals without exception" did He. He said
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Why do you insist on changing the text of scripture. It really is not necessary. You just have to start trusting the bible text.

Do you believe it is the will of God for all to be saved? Yes or no?

 

[BasketFinch]

I know you are trying to make some point but what is it. Do you think I do not know that God is sovereign. You just want to make God subservient to your theology.

Deal with the verses that I posted, respond to them.

I know you are trying to make some point but what is it. Do you think I do not know that God is sovereign. You just want to make God subservient to your theology.

Deal with the verses that I posted, respond to them.

No. If you know God is sovereign you wouldn't ignore scripture that tells you he predestined all things.

Bible prophecies are proof of predestination.
The Lord's prayer invokes predestination.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 2 am EDT (SAT) / 11 pm PDT (Fri)

 

[Silverhair]

Oh so you think you believed on your own and that is what saved you? Got it, works based salvation. Humanism.

No just doing what the bible say we should do when we hear the gospel. Man has to make a choice reject or believe and we then have to deal with the consequence of our choice. Don't you believe the bible?

 

[Silverhair]

Do you believe it is the will of God for all to be saved? Yes or no?

Well since God desires all to be saved as per
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
What do you think I would say?

You have such a struggle with scripture. Just trust what the text says.

 

[Silverhair]

No. If you know God is sovereign you wouldn't ignore scripture that tells you he predestined all things.

Bible prophecies are proof of predestination.
The Lord's prayer invokes predestination.

For someone that claims not to be a calvinist you sure have fallen into their mindset. So God predestined all the sin and evil in the world. That is an interesting point of view. You do not have much respect for the character of God it would seem.

From what you are posting it is obvious that you have not thought it through to its logical conclusion. If God predestined all things, that excludes nothing. Think that through, it is not a pretty picture.

 

[BasketFinch]

For someone that claims not to be a calvinist you sure have fallen into their mindset.

If you studied the scriptures thoroughly you'd know more than to think predestination is an invention unique to Calvinism.

About 27% of the Bible is prophecy.
Prophecy is predeterminism, predestination.

Surprise!

 

[Silverhair]

If you studied the scriptures thoroughly you'd know more than to think predestination is an invention unique to Calvinism.

About 27% of the Bible is prophecy.
Prophecy is predeterminism, predestination.

Surprise!

Surprise, I do not think calvinism invented predestination. Believe it or not it's in the bible. The more you post the more you post like a calvinist. Have you been taking lessons?

 

[Van]

You still don't get it and this post proves my point regarding you not getting it.

God ordains whatsoever he wills. What God wills...comes to pass.

You still post giberish to hide your unbiblical doctrine.

 

[BasketFinch]

Surprise, I do not think calvinism invented predestination. Believe it or not it's in the bible. The more you post the more you post like a calvinist. Have you been taking lessons?

Baiting is the sign of a tragic life.

I'll leave you alone in your ways now .

 

[BasketFinch]

You still post giberish to hide your unbiblical doctrine.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

What Does the Bible Say About God Ordains All Things?

 

[Silverhair]

Baiting is the sign of a tragic life.

I'll leave you alone in your ways now .

Not baiting anyone, but you do seem to think you can do that. Not working though. Have a good nite.

 

[Silverhair]

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

What Does the Bible Say About God Ordains All Things?

Still don't get it do you? Your view makes God the author of all things, good and bad. How can you keep missing that?

 

[BasketFinch]

You still don't get it and this post proves my point regarding you not getting it.

God ordains whatsoever he wills. What God wills...comes to pass.

(Offers Aspirin)

You shall never reach those God has hardened with regard to this matter.

Prophecy in scripture is God's predestination of the future.
The hardened are unaware. We cannot enlighten what God shuts out.

 

[Van]

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

What Does the Bible Say About God Ordains All Things?

Receiving the inheritance for all those saved was predestined. But no individual was chosen before creation, recall 1 Peter 2:9-10. I did not see any verse that says God ordains all things. Just post one verse and highlight where it says God ordains all things. The correct biblical doctrine is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass!!

 

[BasketFinch]

Receiving the inheritance for all those saved was predestined. But no individual was chosen before creation, recall 1 Peter 2:9-10. I did not see any verse that says God ordains all things. Just post one verse and highlight where it says God ordains all things. The correct biblical doctrine is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass!!

“The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4

"In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:4

“Knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world.” 1 Peter 1:18-20

“Also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:11-12

“This Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.” Acts 2:23

Proverbs 16:9 "The heart of a son of man plans his ways and LORD JEHOVAH orders his steps.All of the works of the Lord are done with righteousness; and the ungodly man is kept for the evil day."

Acts 17:26 "And has made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;"

Prophecy: God's predestination of all things. 27% of the Bible.

Revelation 13:8 "And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain."

Acts of the Apostles 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

"The dice are thrown in the lap, and every decision is from the Lord"
Proverbs 16:33

 

[Van]

]On one side we have exhaustive determinists, claiming our every thought and action was predetermined by God. This view is openly endorsed by Hyper-Calvinist, and perhaps secretly held by some main-stream Calvinists. However, on the other side are the majority of professing Christians, who believe we are "free" to choose whatever we fancy. Buried in this group are some fifth columnists claiming we can only "fancy" the dark side.

Lying between these two canards is biblical truth.

The biblical truth is that fallen humanity has limited autonomous will. We can choose what we fancy, but unless God has revealed His good news, we cannot choose to trust in it. Thus our will is obviously limited to what we have experienced or imagined.

Next we are predisposed in ways that curtail the likelihood of choosing to follow God's will. For example, if given the choice between self preservation and doing the right thing, we would tend to save ourselves. This is not a hard limit but an aggregate limit.

If God hardens our hearts, does that not limit our autonomous will? If we harden our own hearts, through the practice of sin, does that not limit our autonomous will? If we have not been "drawn" (attracted) by the Father, can we fully trust in Christ?

Basically both the "Free will" claims and the "Bondage of the Will" claims are bogus unbiblical doctrines.