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No such thing as "free will"

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Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Orrrrrr I look at the context and determine the meaning based on context.

If you actually looked at the context then you would not have to change what the text says. You keep putting your theology into the text so you can find what you need to support your theology. That is just circular thinking.

You said you NEVER change the meaning of words. But you just did in those verses. You need to change ALL MEN, which is a universal application, to your all types of men so you can hold to your theology of limited atonement. So context is not how you determine what the text says but rather whats needed to support your theology.
 

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Do you realize how dumb many of your comments are? Your version of the sovereignty of God is not biblical so why would you expect me to adhere to your version?
Ok, let's get at it this way. In your view, which you consider biblical, what is the sovereignty of God?
 

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
If you actually looked at the context then you would not have to change what the text says. You keep putting your theology into the text so you can find what you need to support your theology. That is just circular thinking.

You said you NEVER change the meaning of words. But you just did in those verses. You need to change ALL MEN, which is a universal application, to your all types of men so you can hold to your theology of limited atonement. So context is not how you determine what the text says but rather whats needed to support your theology.
No, I didn't change the meaning at all. All men are all men. But is that all men in the universe? Is it all men in a country? Is it all men of various types? I changed no definitions. I looked at how Paul was using the term.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Ok, let's get at it this way. In your view, which you consider biblical, what is the sovereignty of God?

Just what the bible says. He is the creator and sustainer of all things. We are saved by His grace through faith in the Son. That enough for you? Now your turn, what is the sovereignty of God?
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
I realize scripture says God either allows or causes whatsoever comes to pass. Something Calvinists do not seem to grasp.
Not true regarding Calvinists, which shows you just don't understand.

You are stating what Reformed persons state.
God ordains whatsoever he wills. What God wills...comes to pass.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
John Piper at the Ligonier National Conference in June 2000 said, “No Christian can be sure he is a true believer. Hence, there’s an ongoing need to be dedicated to the Lord and deny ourselves so that we might make it.”

Piper actually said this in front of Steven Lawson and other Calvinist leaders and no one challenged Him on this. Since you, as a Calvinist, have nothing to do with your salvation, including belief in the Son, this begs the question. How do you even know if you are really saved? Are your works going to be good enough or have you done enough of them? How would you know? Were you one of those chosen before the foundation of the world or do you just think you were?

Calvinists believe that those who have been truly regenerated will inevitably persevere to the end in saving faith. But how does one know that he is regenerate? The only true test is to persevere to the end in saving faith. If one fails to persevere, that person only reveals that while he may have thought his faith was real, it was only a case of self deception, or even worse, divine deception. John Calvin called this divine deception “evanescent grace”.

So my serious question for any Calvinist that cares to answer, is "How do you know for sure you are saved?"
You seem clueless what Piper is speaking about and why every Reformed person agreed with Piper.

Every Reformed person recognizes the perseverance of the saints as a continuing evidence of salvation. Drifting and falling back shows evidence that the person has never been redeemed. Perseverance in all storms is evidence of true faith. Therefore we will persevere, or we were never, ever redeemed in the first place. This is what Piper has consistently said, and it is what he said in the conference you reference. Therefore no one disagreed...because all Reformed believers agree with Piper.

But, you seem utterly confused by what Piper is saying and, because you are clueless regarding Reformed theology, you erroneously attribute to Piper a view that you think is inconsistent with Reformed theology...when it is just the opposite. I cannot say it enough times...you are theologically ignorant in these matters and your confusion is on display for everyone to see.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
I do not question the sovereignty of God. I question your version of the sovereignty of God. The calvinist wants to control what God can and can not do, you just ignore that fact.
You question and moreso...deny the Sovereignty of God. You simply are too blind to know what you are doing.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Not true regarding Calvinists, which shows you just don't understand.

You are stating what Reformed persons state.
God ordains whatsoever he wills. What God wills...comes to pass.
If I had a nickel for every time a Calvinist claimed I did not understand Calvinism I would be rich!

Here the expert and knowledgeable Calvinist claims Calvinism says God ordains whatsoever He wills. But their confession says God ordaines (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass.
God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.​
 

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
If I had a nickel for every time a Calvinist claimed I did not understand Calvinism I would be rich!

Here the expert and knowledgeable Calvinist claims Calvinism says God ordains whatsoever He wills. But their confession says God ordaines (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass.
God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.​
I'm not seeing the issue here.... :confused:
 

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Sov
Just what the bible says. He is the creator and sustainer of all things. We are saved by His grace through faith in the Son. That enough for you? Now your turn, what is the sovereignty of God?
It means that God is in charge. He has mercy on who he has mercy. He decides who to give faith to. He decides who to save and who to leave in their sin. There is nothing that is out of his grasp. He is the one in charge, not us.
 

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Whatsoever comes to pass includes our every sin, and is not the same as whatever He wills, which is consistent with God allowing or causing whatsoever comes to pass.
Do you believe God could have stopped Adam from sinning?
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
No, I didn't change the meaning at all. All men are all men. But is that all men in the universe? Is it all men in a country? Is it all men of various types? I changed no definitions. I looked at how Paul was using the term.

But you do not and that is the problem. You have to read into the text in order to arrive at the place you do.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you believe God could have stopped Adam from sinning?
More questions to extend the thread and side track discussion. This faker knows if God chooses to allow a person to sin, they can sin, and if a God chooses to harden their heart such that they will reject the gospel, He can do that too.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
If I had a nickel for every time a Calvinist claimed I did not understand Calvinism I would be rich!

Here the expert and knowledgeable Calvinist claims Calvinism says God ordains whatsoever He wills. But their confession says God ordaines (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass.
God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.​
You still don't get it and this post proves my point regarding you not getting it.

God ordains whatsoever he wills. What God wills...comes to pass.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
God is a just God. God gave Moses The 10 Commandments to show us what sinners we all are. The fact that we sin, shows why we need a Savior. That is when we are open to the Gospel. That is why Jesus is our only hope. God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved. That is not the same as God saying to person 1 "I want you to go to Heaven", and to person 2 "I want you to go to hell". Even as Christians, we still sin. When we sin, we need to confess it and forsake it. God would like all to go to Heaven but he knows that will not happen. It is still my job (and yours) to spread the good news of the Gospel.
Perhaps we could discuss Romans 9 sometime.
 
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