No such thing as "free will"

[Reformed1689]

Prove what you say. You just do not like or agree with what the bible says . That is not my problem it is yours. Deal with it.

I just did, you referenced John 12:32.

Does John 12:32 Go Against The Doctrines of Grace? – Reformed Truths

 

[Silverhair]

What word have I changed? None.

Your whole theology is built on special meanings of words and you know this. You can not even understand what the word world means in context but rather change it to mean a collective group. You can not conceive of the idea that God actually loves each member of His creation. That is a sad way to look at the love of God. When the bible says God desires all to be saved you say that God did not mean that. You treat the Holy Spirit as if He is basically an imbecile who has no idea what he's talking about. You have placed yourself over God, you know better of what He meant to say. Oh the arrogance you display.

 

[Silverhair]

I just did, you referenced John 12:32.

Does John 12:32 Go Against The Doctrines of Grace? – Reformed Truths

Well according to you have posted before when it says He will draw all people to Himself it actually means drag those people to Himself. {Post # 58 of Did a C or A say this?} So lets look at it from your understanding. Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will DRAG all peoples to Myself."

So here we see that the Son is not just going to DRAG some people, NO. He is going to DRAG ALL PEOPLE to Himself. You are now supporting universalism. That is heresy. Now perhaps you will say that the Son is going to DRAG the elect to Himself. But in order to do this you have to inject your theology into the text. Either that or you think the Holy Spirit or Christ Jesus just do not understand calvinism so you have to correct them. Or perhaps John did not know the difference between the Greek words ALL G1588 and ELECT G3956 and it up to you to correct his mistake.

While you may trust in your "reformed truths" you should actually trust in the bible.

 

[Reformed1689]

Your whole theology is built on special meanings of words and you know this. You can not even understand what the word world means in context but rather change it to mean a collective group. You can not conceive of the idea that God actually loves each member of His creation. That is a sad way to look at the love of God. When the bible says God desires all to be saved you say that God did not mean that. You treat the Holy Spirit as if He is basically an imbecile who has no idea what he's talking about. You have placed yourself over God, you know better of what He meant to say. Oh the arrogance you display.

Special meanings? No, that's not even remotely true. How absurd! God does desire all to be saved within the CONTEXT of what the all is talking about.

Well according to you have posted before when it says He will draw all people to Himself it actually means drag those people to Himself. {Post # 58 of Did a C or A say this?} So lets look at it from your understanding. Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will DRAG all peoples to Myself."

So here we see that the Son is not just going to DRAG some people, NO. He is going to DRAG ALL PEOPLE to Himself. You are now supporting universalism. That is heresy. Now perhaps you will say that the Son is going to DRAG the elect to Himself. But in order to do this you have to inject your theology into the text. Either that or you think the Holy Spirit or Christ Jesus just do not understand calvinism so you have to correct them. Or perhaps John did not know the difference between the Greek words ALL G1588 and ELECT G3956 and it up to you to correct his mistake.

While you may trust in your "reformed truths" you should actually trust in the bible.

Context determines meaning. No it does not mean to drag in John 12:32. But you are grasping for straws at this point.

 

[Silverhair]

Special meanings? No, that's not even remotely true. How absurd! God does desire all to be saved within the CONTEXT of what the all is talking about.
Context determines meaning. No it does not mean to drag in John 12:32. But you are grasping for straws at this point.

So what is the context of 1Ti 2:3-4? You never state what you think you just do your usual and make broad comments that say nothing. State what you actually believe. What is the "ALL" talking about?

Reformed you are he one that says God has to DRAG someone to Himself. Your the one grasping at straws trying to extricate yourself from the hole you have found yourself in.

"You have a desire, a sinful one, and that is the will you have and always go with unless that will is changed. Scripture confirms this when it says nobody seeks God and that God must draw (literally drag) someone to himself."
#58 Reformed1689, Mar 21, 2022

"So according to you Jesus drags all to Himself.
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
So you are prompting universalism by your own words."
#59 Silverhair, Mar 21, 2022

If you need to see what my position is in regard to the word "DRAW" in Joh 12:32 here it is.

"The word “draw” (ἑλκύσω G1670) is used here (Joh_6:44) in the same sense as in Joh_12:32. It is not a drawing against but with man’s will (cf Joh_5:40). [see Thayer below "draw" G1670] If (ἑλκύσω) always means “forcibly dragged”, as some people have alluded, then this passage would have to mean that all (πάντας G3956) people are saved!

We are drawn not by force, although powerfully. We are not treated as mere machines. The Father seeks to influence us as rational, accountable beings. He (Joh_6:45) presents the truth of His word to our understandings; makes it sharp to pierce our consciences; touches our hearts with the power of His love."
#86 Silverhair, Mar 23, 2022

 

[Van]

On one side we have exhaustive determinists, claiming our every thought and action was predetermined by God. This view is openly endorsed by Hyper-Calvinist, and perhaps secretly held by some main-stream Calvinists. However, on the other side are the majority of professing Christians, who believe we are "free" to choose whatever we fancy. Buried in this group are some fifth columnists claiming we can only "fancy" the dark side.

Lying between these two canards is biblical truth.

The biblical truth is that fallen humanity has limited autonomous will. We can choose what we fancy, but unless God has revealed His good news, we cannot choose to trust in it. Thus our will is obviously limited to what we have experienced or imagined.

Next we are predisposed in ways that curtail the likelihood of choosing to follow God's will. For example, if given the choice between self preservation and doing the right thing, we would tend to save ourselves. This is not a hard limit but an aggregate limit.

If God hardens our hearts, does that not limit our autonomous will? If we harden our own hearts, through the practice of sin, does that not limit our autonomous will? If we have not been "drawn" (attracted) by the Father, can we fully trust in Christ?

Basically both the "Free will" (unconstrained will) claims and the "Bondage of the Will" (Totally constrained Will) claims are bogus unbiblical doctrine

 

[Reformed1689]

So what is the context of 1Ti 2:3-4? You never state what you think you just do your usual and make broad comments that say nothing. State what you actually believe. What is the "ALL" talking about?

I have said all types of people. Not just kings and rulers, all types of people.

Reformed you are he one that says God has to DRAG someone to Himself. Your the one grasping at straws trying to extricate yourself from the hole you have found yourself in.

"You have a desire, a sinful one, and that is the will you have and always go with unless that will is changed. Scripture confirms this when it says nobody seeks God and that God must draw (literally drag) someone to himself."
#58 Reformed1689, Mar 21, 2022

"So according to you Jesus drags all to Himself.
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
So you are prompting universalism by your own words."
#59 Silverhair, Mar 21, 2022

Well here is the problem, you assume in post 58 I'm talking about John 12:32, I'm not. Like I said, context determines meaning.

Nobody wants to come to God on their own. Paul makes that clear. Nobody seeks God. I know you don't want to accept that but that is what Scripture says, not John Calvin.

It also says nobody can come to Christ unless they are drawn, literally dragged, by the Father. They have to be GRANTED by the Father to come to him.

So you can keep playing your little games, you lose every time.

 

[kyredneck]

God took the ultimate risk

God, take risks? What a silly carnal notion.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me;
10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure; Isa 46

 

[BasketFinch]

No, I don't think he has unconditional love for all individuals so I have no problem there. Pretty sure you don't bring wrath on someone you love. Unconditional love would mean he would overlook the sin. If God had unconditional love for all individuals, nobody would be in Hell.

They're not in Hell as yet. I do agree with you though.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works everything for its own ends--even the wicked for the day of disaster.

 

[tyndale1946]

God, take risks? What a silly carnal notion.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me;
10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure; Isa 46

What brethren on here feel to realize is that we HAD free will once and lost it and look what the cost was?... To appease our fallen nature of sin in Adam, the will of God we failed in was given to another... The Son Of God Jesus Christ to carry out, who didn't fail.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Btw... Where are my manners?... Welcome to the BB sister BasketFinch... Brother Glen

 

[Silverhair]

I have said all types of people. Not just kings and rulers, all types of people.
Well here is the problem, you assume in post 58 I'm talking about John 12:32, I'm not. Like I said, context determines meaning.

Nobody wants to come to God on their own. Paul makes that clear. Nobody seeks God. I know you don't want to accept that but that is what Scripture says, not John Calvin.

It also says nobody can come to Christ unless they are drawn, literally dragged, by the Father. They have to be GRANTED by the Father to come to him.

So you can keep playing your little games, you lose every time.

I agree context does determine things that is why I have said you should pay attention to it. Good to see that you are finally planing to do that.

Now you just have to carry that idea through to the rest of scripture. Look at what you say about 1Ti 2:1-6. You can not accept what the bible says you have to impose your theology on the text.

We see the same in 1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all G3956 men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all G3956, to be testified in due time,

If Paul really did not mean "all" G3956 in 1Ti 2:4-6 what should he have said here to make it any clearer?

Even when you look at this in context you still miss the point. 1Ti 2:1 ..giving of thanks be made for all men, 1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in authority. Would these not be part of the ALL MEN? 1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved, 1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all.
When we keep reading we find: 1Ti 4:10...who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Why can you not accept what the bible says and just admit that God really would like all to come to repentance and trust in the Son for salvation. 1Ti 2:3-4 We see in scripture that God is reaching out to people to convict them of their sin Joh 16:8. Man comes to God because they are drawn by the gospel message Eph1:13 or even creation Rom 1:20, but not all that are drawn will respond with faith some will reject the Son Joh 3:18 even though He had come to save the world Joh 3:17.

Do men seek God, of course they do. That is a natural thing in man. Some seek false Gods but, and this is what you have a problem with, some will seek the Son
Luk_9:23 Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
Luk_9:24 For whoever desires G2309 to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

G2309
θέλω
thélō; fut. thelḗsō. To will, wish, desire, implying active volition and purpose.
The Complete Word Study Dictionary
to exercise the will,
Mounce Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament

 

[Silverhair]

What brethren on here feel to realize is that we HAD free will once and lost it and look what the cost was?... To appease our fallen nature of sin in Adam, the will of God we failed in was given to another... The Son Of God Jesus Christ to carry out, who didn't fail.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Btw... Where are my manners?... Welcome to the BB sister BasketFinch... Brother Glen

Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."

Do you have a different version of these texts? I do not see where mans free will was lost. But I do see where man has to exercise his free will. We are to seek God Jer 29:13. We are to turn from our evil ways so that we might live Eze_18:23, Eze_33:11. We are to trust in God. Pro_3:5
We also see free will in the NT, some believed some did not and they would not change their minds. Mat_21:32 Man has to make the choice to believe. Mar_9:23 Some hear the gospel message and trust in the Son. Luk 8:15

I could give you more verses to check but I am sure you get the idea. Man has a free will with which he can make real choices even including trusting in the Son for their salvation.

 

[AustinC]

I agree context does determine things that is why I have said you should pay attention to it. Good to see that you are finally planing to do that.

Now you just have to carry that idea through to the rest of scripture. Look at what you say about 1Ti 2:1-6. You can not accept what the bible says you have to impose your theology on the text.

We see the same in 1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all G3956 men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all G3956, to be testified in due time,

If Paul really did not mean "all" G3956 in 1Ti 2:4-6 what should he have said here to make it any clearer?

Even when you look at this in context you still miss the point. 1Ti 2:1 ..giving of thanks be made for all men, 1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in authority. Would these not be part of the ALL MEN? 1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved, 1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all.
When we keep reading we find: 1Ti 4:10...who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Why can you not accept what the bible says and just admit that God really would like all to come to repentance and trust in the Son for salvation. 1Ti 2:3-4 We see in scripture that God is reaching out to people to convict them of their sin Joh 16:8. Man comes to God because they are drawn by the gospel message Eph1:13 or even creation Rom 1:20, but not all that are drawn will respond with faith some will reject the Son Joh 3:18 even though He had come to save the world Joh 3:17.

Do men seek God, of course they do. That is a natural thing in man. Some seek false Gods but, and this is what you have a problem with, some will seek the Son
Luk_9:23 Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
Luk_9:24 For whoever desires G2309 to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

G2309
θέλω
thélō; fut. thelḗsō. To will, wish, desire, implying active volition and purpose.
The Complete Word Study Dictionary
to exercise the will,
Mounce Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament

... well if 1 Timothy 2:1-6 were the only words God ever uttered, you might have an argument, since there wouldn't be all the rest of scripture to help us understand.
Our difference is that I allow the whole of scripture to inform my understanding, while you refuse to look beyond the narrow scope. In fact, you despise any scripture that could clarify your narrow scope. We have seen you do this time and time again.

 

[Reformed1689]

I agree context does determine things that is why I have said you should pay attention to it. Good to see that you are finally planing to do that.

Now you just have to carry that idea through to the rest of scripture. Look at what you say about 1Ti 2:1-6. You can not accept what the bible says you have to impose your theology on the text.

We see the same in 1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all G3956 men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all G3956, to be testified in due time,

If Paul really did not mean "all" G3956 in 1Ti 2:4-6 what should he have said here to make it any clearer?

Even when you look at this in context you still miss the point. 1Ti 2:1 ..giving of thanks be made for all men, 1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in authority. Would these not be part of the ALL MEN? 1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved, 1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all.
When we keep reading we find: 1Ti 4:10...who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Why can you not accept what the bible says and just admit that God really would like all to come to repentance and trust in the Son for salvation. 1Ti 2:3-4 We see in scripture that God is reaching out to people to convict them of their sin Joh 16:8. Man comes to God because they are drawn by the gospel message Eph1:13 or even creation Rom 1:20, but not all that are drawn will respond with faith some will reject the Son Joh 3:18 even though He had come to save the world Joh 3:17.

Do men seek God, of course they do. That is a natural thing in man. Some seek false Gods but, and this is what you have a problem with, some will seek the Son
Luk_9:23 Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
Luk_9:24 For whoever desires G2309 to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

G2309
θέλω
thélō; fut. thelḗsō. To will, wish, desire, implying active volition and purpose.
The Complete Word Study Dictionary
to exercise the will,
Mounce Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament

Why do I not accept that? Three reasons:

1. That's not what it says in context.
2. That's not what it says in the light of the rest of Scripture.
3. I have a high view of God and believe He actually can and does accomplish His will. He does not fail.

 

[Silverhair]

... well if 1 Timothy 2:1-6 were the only words God ever uttered, you might have an argument, since there wouldn't be all the rest of scripture to help us understand.
Our difference is that I allow the whole of scripture to inform my understanding, while you refuse to look beyond the narrow scope. In fact, you despise any scripture that could clarify your narrow scope. We have seen you do this time and time again.

Not sure why you would say that as I have dealt with quite a bit of scripture, you just do not like it when someone points out the errors of your thinking. You want scripture to fit into your theology rather than having your theology fit with the bible. You have the wrong standard.
If you allow the whole of scripture to inform your understanding you would not be a calvinist. But that is the hill you seem willing to die on.

 

[AustinC]

Not sure why you would say that as I have dealt with quite a bit of scripture, you just do not like it when someone points out the errors of your thinking. You want scripture to fit into your theology rather than having your theology fit with the bible. You have the wrong standard.
If you allow the whole of scripture to inform your understanding you would not be a calvinist. But that is the hill you seem willing to die on.

You know exactly why I say this. You fail to look at the whole of scripture and when you pick verses, you always spin them to fit your humanism.

 

[Silverhair]

Why do I not accept that? Three reasons:

1. That's not what it says in context.
2. That's not what it says in the light of the rest of Scripture.
3. I have a high view of God and believe He actually can and does accomplish His will. He does not fail.

1. you need to learn to read without the calvinist glasses
2. It is what it means in light of the rest of scripture
3. Gods plan will be accomplished. That's the plan that is in the bible, not the one that your theology would put forward.

 

[Silverhair]

You know exactly why I say this. You fail to look at the whole of scripture and when you pick verses, you always spin them to fit your humanism.

I am not the one whose theology has to read into scripture or give special meaning to words. This has been pointed out to you many times but you just ignore it. A closed mind is a terrible thing.

 

[Silverhair]

Austin you keep saying that I am a humanist which you know is untrue as I have pointed this out to you a number of times. Let me repeat this one more time and perhaps it will sink in. I am a Christian, try to remember that.

I could say that you have a cult like adherence to your theology but I would not say that. I just think you are confused about what the bible actually says.

 

[Reformed1689]

1. you need to learn to read without the calvinist glasses
2. It is what it means in light of the rest of scripture
3. Gods plan will be accomplished. That's the plan that is in the bible, not the one that your theology would put forward.

I don't read with Calvinist glasses. I read it for what it actually says. You should probably stop reading it with your anti-calvinist glasses.

No you blatantly ignore many Scriptures.

Yes, God's plan will be accomplished. And that includes some peole are vessels of wrath.