No such thing as "free will"

[SavedByGrace]

Pretty sure you don't bring wrath on someone you love

Psalm 106:40

"Therefore the wrath of the LORD was kindled against His people, So that He abhorred His own inheritance"

 

[Van]

On one side we have exhaustive determinists, claiming our every thought and action was predetermined by God. This view is openly endorsed by Hyper-Calvinist, and perhaps secretly held by some main-stream Calvinists. However, on the other side are the majority of professing Christians, who believe we are "free" to choose whatever we fancy. Buried in this group are some fifth columnists claiming we can only "fancy" the dark side.

Lying between these two canards is biblical truth.

The biblical truth is that fallen humanity has limited autonomous will. We can choose what we fancy, but unless God has revealed His good news, we cannot choose to trust in it. Thus our will is obviously limited to what we have experienced or imagined.

Next we are predisposed in ways that curtail the likelihood of choosing to follow God's will. For example, if given the choice between self preservation and doing the right thing, we would tend to save ourselves. This is not a hard limit but an aggregate limit.

If God hardens our hearts, does that not limit our autonomous will? If we harden our own hearts, through the practice of sin, does that not limit our autonomous will? If we have not been "drawn" (attracted) by the Father, can we fully trust in Christ?

Basically both the "Free will" (unconstrained will) claims and the "Bondage of the Will" (Totally constrained Will) claims are bogus unbiblical doctrine

 

[Reformed1689]

Psalm 106:40

"Therefore the wrath of the LORD was kindled against His people, So that He abhorred His own inheritance"

Eternal wrath? And if that verse is talking about Israel, and it most definitely was, not every person in Israel was true Israel. Surely you know that.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Eternal wrath? And if that verse is talking about Israel, and it most definitely was, not every person in Israel was true Israel. Surely you know that.

NOTE the phrases used here, "His People" and "His Own Inheritance"; both IMPOSSIBLE to refer to those who were not actual Children of God, saved!

Again your agrument FAILS!

 

[AustinC]

NOTE the phrases used here, "His People" and "His Own Inheritance"; both IMPOSSIBLE to refer to those who were not actual Children of God, saved!

Again your agrument FAILS!

You clearly are ignorant of Covenants whereby all Israel is under the Mosaic Covenant, but not all Israel is saved by grace and justified by faith.
Since you are clueless to this truth, you cannot see your error.

 

[Silverhair]

Jesus death is for everyone who believes, without exception. That is what the dialogue with Nicodemus presents. The context bears this out.

John 3:1-21

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Well since He came to save sinners, the world, the ungodly etc. That would have to include those that freely trust in Him for their salvation.

The text you quote supports free will, you just do not accept that it does.
Joh 3:20 For everyone practicing G4238 (G5723) evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But he who does G4160 (G5723) the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
G5723
Tense-Present See [G5774]
Voice-Active See [G5784]
Mood -Participle See [G5796]
The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time.
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.
The Greek participle corresponds for the most part to the English participle, reflecting "- ing" or "- ed" being suffixed to the basic verb form.

Notice that the one practicing "evil" and the one "who does/practices" truth are both in the active voice. The are the ones doing the action it is not being done to them or for them. Since you say that man has the free will to sin then it is obvious that man also has the free will to trust in God.

We see the same situation in
Joh 3:36 He who believes G4100 (G5723) in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe G544 (G5723) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

I could post all the intervening verses but I am sure you can find them in your bible.

 

[Silverhair]

Do I believe whole world means all individuals? No. So no problem there. Love is only ONE ASPECT of God. You can't just look at love and ignore everything else. But that is exactly what you are doing.

Question, do you have children? If you do do you love them. Does that mean that you never punish them when they do something wrong.

Your first mistake is that you ignore the text. When it says God loves the Whole World what do you think it means? You simply disregard scripture that you do not like as it does not fit your theology.

Your trusting in yourself not the bible.

 

[Reformed1689]

Question, do you have children? If you do do you love them. Does that mean that you never punish them when they do something wrong.

Your first mistake is that you ignore the text. When it says God loves the Whole World what do you think it means? You simply disregard scripture that you do not like as it does not fit your theology.

Your trusting in yourself not the bible.

I've been very clear God loving the world has to do with the collective, not the individual. So no, I don't disregard anything, I just don't make something mean something it doesn't.

 

[Silverhair]

I've been very clear God loving the world has to do with the collective, not the individual. So no, I don't disregard anything, I just don't make something mean something it doesn't.

So if God loves the world collectively and the collective is made up of individual people that would mean that He loves each person. The whole world means all the people in the world, each individual. When someone says they love their "whole family" that means they love each member of the family. You are just avoiding the obvious.

 

[Reformed1689]

So if God loves the world collectively and the collective is made up of individual people that would mean that He loves each person. The whole world means all the people in the world, each individual. When someone says they love their "whole family" that means they love each member of the family. You are just avoiding the obvious.

Except that is not what the Bible says. Nor is that what it means. You want to make world mean individual but it doesn't I'm sorry.

"The eyes of the whole world are on this moment" does that mean every individual? No.

 

[Silverhair]

Except that is not what the Bible says. Nor is that what it means. You want to make world mean individual but it doesn't I'm sorry.

"The eyes of the whole world are on this moment" does that mean every individual? No.

I realize that as a calvinist you have a problem with the idea that God would love the whole world enough that He would desire that all be saved. You seem more willing to uphold your calvinist theology than the bible.

You try to support your view by grabbing quotes from outside the biblical text and confuse hyperbole with scripture. Why do you not just trust what the bible says? You claim to be a Christian and yet you would rather trust a secular text than the bible. You seem very confused.

What does 1Jn 5:18-19 tell you. Christians are protected but the rest of humanity is under the power of the evil one. Even if you say it is collective then it still means all individuals. You work way to hard to avoid the obvious.

 

[Reformed1689]

I realize that as a calvinist you have a problem with the idea that God would love the whole world enough that He would desire that all be saved. You seem more willing to uphold your calvinist theology than the bible.

You try to support your view by grabbing quotes from outside the biblical text and confuse hyperbole with scripture. Why do you not just trust what the bible says? You claim to be a Christian and yet you would rather trust a secular text than the bible. You seem very confused.

What does 1Jn 5:18-19 tell you. Christians are protected but the rest of humanity is under the power of the evil one. Even if you say it is collective then it still means all individuals. You work way to hard to avoid the obvious.

I don't have a problem with that idea on its own. But the Bible says that is not the case. When have I quoted on this topic outside the biblical text? That's a false claim. What secular text am I trusting over the Bible? Where have I done this? That's bearing false witness sir. I'm not confused at all.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't have a problem with that idea on its own. But the Bible says that is not the case. When have I quoted on this topic outside the biblical text? That's a false claim. What secular text am I trusting over the Bible? Where have I done this? That's bearing false witness sir. I'm not confused at all.

I did a search for this quote but not in any bible I have "The eyes of the whole world are on this moment". What is the ref? Since you disagree with what the bible says then you must be getting your ideas from outside the bible. Logical conclusion. If you can not understand clear bible text on this matter then you are most assuredly confused. How clear does the text have to be before you can believe what it says?

 

[Reformed1689]

I did a search for this quote but not in any bible I have "The eyes of the whole world are on this moment". What is the ref? Since you disagree with what the bible says then you must be getting your ideas from outside the bible. Logical conclusion. If you can not understand clear bible text on this matter then you are most assuredly confused. How clear does the text have to be before you can believe what it says?

OH BROTHER! That's not a quote that is an ILLUSTRATION to show how absurd it is to say world equates all individuals. It's basic. You want to say world equals all individuals. I gave you as simple illustration to show that it does not necessitate that.

 

[Silverhair]

OH BROTHER! That's not a quote that is an ILLUSTRATION to show how absurd it is to say world equates all individuals. It's basic. You want to say world equals all individuals. I gave you as simple illustration to show that it does not necessitate that.

What does the text of the bible require? 1Jn 2:2 "...not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" That is what matters. You put the text in quote marks and then say it is not a quote and then say it is absurd for me to take it as a quote. Really!

You are really going to equate Christ Jesus being the saviour of the whole world to the illustration that you made up.

Do you not think that God wants all people to be saved? The bible says He does, 1Ti 2:4 "...who desires all men to be saved". Or are you going to tell me that He really only wants to save groups of people.

It seems you are letting your theology cloud your vision. Your philosophy is dictating what you see when you read the bible.

 

[Reformed1689]

What does the text of the bible require? 1Jn 2:2 "...not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" That is what matters. You put the text in quote marks and then say it is not a quote and then say it is absurd for me to take it as a quote. Really!

You are really going to equate Christ Jesus being the saviour of the whole world to the illustration that you made up.

Do you not think that God wants all people to be saved? The bible says He does, 1Ti 2:4 "...who desires all men to be saved". Or are you going to tell me that He really only wants to save groups of people.

It seems you are letting your theology cloud your vision. Your philosophy is dictating what you see when you read the bible.

Of course I am going to equate it because it is an equal comparison. You take things out of context, that's fine. But it doesn't change the reality that world does not mean individuals.

 

[Reformed1689]

Of course I am going to equate it because it is an equal comparison. You take things out of context, that's fine. But it doesn't change the reality that world does not mean individuals.

Furthermore, if God wanted ALL people to be saved @Silverhair , all people would be saved. So either God can't accomplish His will, or that isn't His will.

 

[Silverhair]

Of course I am going to equate it because it is an equal comparison. You take things out of context, that's fine. But it doesn't change the reality that world does not mean individuals.

Well I see tat you would rather hold to your false theology then trust what the bible says. I thought you were smart enough to read the text and understand what it says but your reluctance to do that or perhaps your inability to do so is clear by your response.

 

[Silverhair]

Furthermore, if God wanted ALL people to be saved @Silverhair , all people would be saved. So either God can't accomplish His will, or that isn't His will.

If this is what you actually believe, then your response shows a complete lack of understanding of the English language. The only logical answer that I can come up with is that you are just acting dumb. No one that says they are a teacher can misunderstand clear text unless they do it deliberately.

Now I do not think you are dumb so the only answer is that you refuse to take the text as it reads because it does not fit with your theology. If the bible text does not fit your theology then it is time your change your theology to fit with the bible.

Why do you not accept the text of the bible but rather openly disagree with what it says. "So either God can't accomplish His will, or that isn't His will." Do you actually read what you post. You are putting yourself over God.

 

[AustinC]

If this is what you actually believe, then your response shows a complete lack of understanding of the English language. The only logical answer that I can come up with is that you are just acting dumb. No one that says they are a teacher can misunderstand clear text unless they do it deliberately.

Now I do not think you are dumb so the only answer is that you refuse to take the text as it reads because it does not fit with your theology. If the bible text does not fit your theology then it is time your change your theology to fit with the bible.

Why do you not accept the text of the bible but rather openly disagree with what it says. "So either God can't accomplish His will, or that isn't His will." Do you actually read what you post. You are putting yourself over God.

Perhaps if you read the entire word of God instead of relying on a sentence that misses the context, you would see your error. But, that seems to be too much of an ask from you.