No such thing as "free will"

[Van]

Then on this verse and view we seem to agree.

Amazing both of us can occasionally see the truth of scripture.

 

[Alan Gross]

did you know when Jesus says in places like Luke 5:32, "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance", that the Greek verb καλέω which is translated CALL, also is used for INVITED? This means that the Gospel Message is an INVITATION, as seen from the Parable of the Wedding Feast. An INVITATION is something that can be ACCEPTED or REJECTED, as also seen in this Parable, where those who were originally INVITED, REFUSED to come, which means they CHOOSE to do so! This is known as FREE WILL!

"When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mark 2:17

 

[Silverhair]

No, I do not believe he loves all individuals unconditionally with the same love nor does the Bible say that.

Then you have a very low view of God. Do you not believe that the whole world is under the power of Satan? Do you not believe that the Son was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world? Do you not believe that God wants all men to be saved?

God, because He is love, loves all men unconditionally that is His nature/character but He will only save those that meet the condition He has set for salvation faith in His Son.

We are told in the Scriptures that
'the LORD is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and full of mercy. The LORD is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works' (Psa_145:8-9).
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1Jn 4:10
We can see how that works out in practice.
He 'makes His sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.' He 'is kind to the unthankful and evil' (Mat_5:45; Luk_6:35).
He 'gives to all life, breath and all things' (Act_17:25).

 

[SavedByGrace]

"When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mark 2:17

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23

ALL= THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE
SINNERS= THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE

simple!

 

[Silverhair]

On the contrary, context is not the friend of Silverhair. Very rarely do you allow context to determine your interpretation. Most often you ignore context and hone in on part of a sentence where you attempt to ignore all context. This has been your consistent pattern from the very beginning of posting at the BB.

The fact is, your above statement is a blatant falsehood, mainly because you are clueless about Reformed theology and simply throw out the word "calvinist" in complete ignorance. You use it like a swear word.

Blatant falsehoods but then I am used to that coming from you and a few others on this board. I do not try to add my own interpretation to the text I just trust what it says in context. You just do not like it when anyone would dare disagree with your questionable understanding of any text that you voice your opinion no. Your the ones that post scripture and then claim it does not mean what it says but rather what you think it says. I think many Calvinists have followed Alice down the rabbit hole.

 

[SavedByGrace]

So God has unconditional love for those in hell?

yes, do you think that His Love changes to hate?

 

[SavedByGrace]

There are some here from the "Reformed" camp, who are accusing others of not allowing the CONTEXT to determine the menaing of a verse or passage!

This has got to be a JOKE, as they are they WORST at doing this, as they DISTROT and TWIST what Jesus Christ very clearly says in John 3:16-18, that His Death is for "everyone without exception", as even John Calvin Himself admits!

 

[AustinC]

There are some here from the "Reformed" camp, who are accusing others of not allowing the CONTEXT to determine the menaing of a verse or passage!

This has got to be a JOKE, as they are they WORST at doing this, as they DISTROT and TWIST what Jesus Christ very clearly says in John 3:16-18, that His Death is for "everyone without exception", as even John Calvin Himself admits!

Jesus death is for everyone who believes, without exception. That is what the dialogue with Nicodemus presents. The context bears this out.

John 3:1-21

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

 

[AustinC]

Blatant falsehoods but then I am used to that coming from you and a few others on this board. I do not try to add my own interpretation to the text I just trust what it says in context. You just do not like it when anyone would dare disagree with your questionable understanding of any text that you voice your opinion no. Your the ones that post scripture and then claim it does not mean what it says but rather what you think it says. I think many Calvinists have followed Alice down the rabbit hole.

Your imagination says this. Your actual words reject the context and force free will onto the context when it is not there. You do this consistently and everyone reading your posts recognizes what you do.

Realize that in this context, you are Alice.

 

[Alan Gross]

ASV Philemon 1:14, ". . . but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will. . . ."

You realize I provided a 6 page document of verses for you. Would you like me to share that again so you grasp the Sovereign choice of God across the entire Bible? Sure you would. Here it is.

from your work: "T – Total Depravity: Humans are corrupted by sin."

 

[Alan Gross]

Gill on Philemon 1:14b = he is oblivious to anything having to do with "Salvation",
with the mention of "willingness", or "free will".

"That thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly; that is, that his goodness in forgiving his servant, and renouncing all claim and property in him, and admitting him to continue in the service of the apostle, might not look like a forced thing; but that it might appear to be a voluntary action,..."

 

[BasketFinch]

This I believe. In the dominion-domain of Sovereign God we have no free will. The Lord's prayer invokes that accord and concession from us when we recite it

"When ye pray pray like this....
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."


Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord determines his steps.

 

[Van]

This I believe. In the dominion-domain of Sovereign God we have no free will. The Lord's prayer invokes that accord and concession from us when we recite it

"When ye pray pray like this....
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord determines his steps.

I look at the verse in the opposite way, we exercise our limited autonomous will, when we make plans, but God can redirect our thoughts and actions if He chooses. Or He can allow us to sin or choose life.

 

[AustinC]

I look at the verse in the opposite way, we exercise our limited autonomous will, when we make plans, but God can redirect our thoughts and actions if He chooses. Or He can allow us to sin or choose life.

Van, in both cases, God is Sovereignly directing.

 

[Van]

Van, in both cases, God is Sovereignly directing.

Folks note the use of vague verbiage, "sovereignly directing."

From the internet, I found, " God's sovereignty directing the trajectory of history as well as an exhortation for us to remain devoted followers of Jesus Christ in the midst of all kinds of trial, tribulation, and triumph. And also I found "sovereignly directing" in an article about John Piper's sermon of Psalm 16:7. The idea is by trusting God as your counselor, then God was "sovereignly directing your life. However, such an undefined term might refer to the Hyper-Calvinist false doctrine of exhaustive determinism.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord determines his steps.​

I look at the verse in the opposite way, we exercise our limited autonomous will, when we make plans, but God can redirect our thoughts and actions if He chooses. Or He can allow us to sin or choose life.

 

[AustinC]

Folks note the use of vague verbiage, "sovereignly directing."

From the internet, I found, " God's sovereignty directing the trajectory of history as well as an exhortation for us to remain devoted followers of Jesus Christ in the midst of all kinds of trial, tribulation, and triumph. And also I found "sovereignly directing" in an article about John Piper's sermon of Psalm 16:7. The idea is by trusting God as your counselor, then God was "sovereignly directing your life. However, such an undefined term might refer to the Hyper-Calvinist false doctrine of exhaustive determinism.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord determines his steps.​

I look at the verse in the opposite way, we exercise our limited autonomous will, when we make plans, but God can redirect our thoughts and actions if He chooses. Or He can allow us to sin or choose life.

Nothing vague in what I said, Van. In both scenarios you brought up, it is God directing the scenario.

 

[Reformed1689]

yes, do you think that His Love changes to hate?

No, I don't think he has unconditional love for all individuals so I have no problem there. Pretty sure you don't bring wrath on someone you love. Unconditional love would mean he would overlook the sin. If God had unconditional love for all individuals, nobody would be in Hell.

 

[Reformed1689]

Then you have a very low view of God. Do you not believe that the whole world is under the power of Satan? Do you not believe that the Son was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world? Do you not believe that God wants all men to be saved?

God, because He is love, loves all men unconditionally that is His nature/character but He will only save those that meet the condition He has set for salvation faith in His Son.

We are told in the Scriptures that
'the LORD is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and full of mercy. The LORD is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works' (Psa_145:8-9).
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1Jn 4:10
We can see how that works out in practice.
He 'makes His sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.' He 'is kind to the unthankful and evil' (Mat_5:45; Luk_6:35).
He 'gives to all life, breath and all things' (Act_17:25).

Do I believe whole world means all individuals? No. So no problem there. Love is only ONE ASPECT of God. You can't just look at love and ignore everything else. But that is exactly what you are doing.

 

[Reformed1689]

Then on this verse and view we seem to agree.

Yes this thread has perplexed me a little bit on his views given his usual vitriol against the doctrines of grace.

 

[Van]

Nothing vague in what I said, Van. In both scenarios you brought up, it is God directing the scenario.

Truth and clarity seem missing from the repartee of Calvinism's defense.