No such thing as "free will"

[AustinC]

I don't read with Calvinist glasses. I read it for what it actually says. You should probably stop reading it with your anti-calvinist glasses.

No you blatantly ignore many Scriptures.

Yes, God's plan will be accomplished. And that includes some peole are vessels of wrath.

None of us do. We read the Bible and see that God is fully Sovereign over every molecule so that none are rogue. This runs a humanist the wrong way and when we point out that the Bible is not conformed to the image of man, the humanist cries out "calvinist" as his only response.

 

[AustinC]

Austin you keep saying that I am a humanist which you know is untrue as I have pointed this out to you a number of times. Let me repeat this one more time and perhaps it will sink in. I am a Christian, try to remember that.

I could say that you have a cult like adherence to your theology but I would not say that. I just think you are confused about what the bible actually says.

It is not untrue at all. You have consistently placed your will as superior to God's will with every response.
I have never said, you are not claiming to be a Christian and frankly, that would break the rules at the BB to make that claim. I do claim that as a Christian you place your own will above God's will.

 

[Reformed1689]

Austin you keep saying that I am a humanist which you know is untrue as I have pointed this out to you a number of times. Let me repeat this one more time and perhaps it will sink in. I am a Christian, try to remember that.

I could say that you have a cult like adherence to your theology but I would not say that. I just think you are confused about what the bible actually says.

We aren't saying secular humanist, not saying you are a Richard Dawkins. But rather, you hold to a humanist worldview.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't read with Calvinist glasses. I read it for what it actually says. You should probably stop reading it with your anti-calvinist glasses.

No you blatantly ignore many Scriptures.

Yes, God's plan will be accomplished. And that includes some peole are vessels of wrath.

Not anti-anything, I just do not see your errant theology in the bible. When you have to change the meaning of words or read your theology into the text you, reformed, have a problem. You just refuse to see it.

 

[Reformed1689]

Not anti-anything, I just do not see your errant theology in the bible. When you have to change the meaning of words or read your theology into the text you, reformed, have a problem. You just refuse to see it.

You keep saying changing the meanings of words. I have NEVER changed the meaning of a word.

 

[Silverhair]

It is not untrue at all. You have consistently placed your will as superior to God's will with every response.
I have never said, you are not claiming to be a Christian and frankly, that would break the rules at the BB to make that claim. I do claim that as a Christian you place your own will above God's will.

No I just read what the bible says and the bible requires that we place our trust in the risen Son for our salvation. You do not think you have to believe before you are saved but rather God makes you believe, that is not biblical.

If you can not or rather refuse to see the truth of scripture because of your adherence to your calvinism that becomes your stumbling block. I think you really do want to know the truth but you have convinced yourself that calvinism is it. You have missed the mark.

 

[Silverhair]

You keep saying changing the meanings of words. I have NEVER changed the meaning of a word.

Does your bible have different text in it, it must. Mine says in 1Ti 2:1-6 "ALL MEN" where do you get this "types of people" in the text. You change the meaning of all men to types of men. So you either change the meaning of ALL or you read into the text what you need to find. Either way you are changing the text of the bible to fit your theology.

Why do you find it necessary to change the clear text. Does the fact it is for ALL MEN cause a problem for your theological view?

Does the fact God desires ALL MEN to be saved bother you? What about the fact He gave Himself as a ransom for ALL? Your denial of the text shows you really do not trust the text but rather the theological position which you hold.

 

[Van]

On one side we have exhaustive determinists, claiming our every thought and action was predetermined by God. This view is openly endorsed by Hyper-Calvinist, and perhaps secretly held by some main-stream Calvinists. However, on the other side are the majority of professing Christians, who believe we are "free" to choose whatever we fancy. Buried in this group are some fifth columnists claiming we can only "fancy" the dark side.

Lying between these two canards is biblical truth.

The biblical truth is that fallen humanity has limited autonomous will. We can choose what we fancy, but unless God has revealed His good news, we cannot choose to trust in it. Thus our will is obviously limited to what we have experienced or imagined.

Next we are predisposed in ways that curtail the likelihood of choosing to follow God's will. For example, if given the choice between self preservation and doing the right thing, we would tend to save ourselves. This is not a hard limit but an aggregate limit.

If God hardens our hearts, does that not limit our autonomous will? If we harden our own hearts, through the practice of sin, does that not limit our autonomous will? If we have not been "drawn" (attracted) by the Father, can we fully trust in Christ?

Basically both the "Free will" (unconstrained will) claims and the "Bondage of the Will" (Totally constrained Will) claims are bogus unbiblical doctrine.

 

[AustinC]

On one side we have exhaustive determinists, claiming our every thought and action was predetermined by God. This view is openly endorsed by Hyper-Calvinist, and perhaps secretly held by some main-stream Calvinists. However, on the other side are the majority of professing Christians, who believe we are "free" to choose whatever we fancy. Buried in this group are some fifth columnists claiming we can only "fancy" the dark side.

Lying between these two canards is biblical truth.

The biblical truth is that fallen humanity has limited autonomous will. We can choose what we fancy, but unless God has revealed His good news, we cannot choose to trust in it. Thus our will is obviously limited to what we have experienced or imagined.

Next we are predisposed in ways that curtail the likelihood of choosing to follow God's will. For example, if given the choice between self preservation and doing the right thing, we would tend to save ourselves. This is not a hard limit but an aggregate limit.

If God hardens our hearts, does that not limit our autonomous will? If we harden our own hearts, through the practice of sin, does that not limit our autonomous will? If we have not been "drawn" (attracted) by the Father, can we fully trust in Christ?

Basically both the "Free will" (unconstrained will) claims and the "Bondage of the Will" (Totally constrained Will) claims are bogus unbiblical doctrine.

Perhaps you don't realize that Reformed Theology recognizes we act within the confines of God's will for his perfect goals. This means that there is no rogue molecule.

 

[gmeyers1944]

God is a just God. God gave Moses The 10 Commandments to show us what sinners we all are. The fact that we sin, shows why we need a Savior. That is when we are open to the Gospel. That is why Jesus is our only hope. God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved. That is not the same as God saying to person 1 "I want you to go to Heaven", and to person 2 "I want you to go to hell". Even as Christians, we still sin. When we sin, we need to confess it and forsake it. God would like all to go to Heaven but he knows that will not happen. It is still my job (and yours) to spread the good news of the Gospel.

 

[Silverhair]

None of us do. We read the Bible and see that God is fully Sovereign over every molecule so that none are rogue. This runs a humanist the wrong way and when we point out that the Bible is not conformed to the image of man, the humanist cries out "calvinist" as his only response.

You keep saying that God is sovereign, I agree He is. The problem is that according to you calvinists He can only be sovereign over what you say He can be. Does not sound like your God is really sovereign does it.

 

[Silverhair]

Perhaps you don't realize that Reformed Theology recognizes we act within the confines of God's will for his perfect goals. This means that there is no rogue molecule.

Oh right, divine meticulous determination. Your God has to control everything or He is not God. So your God has to be a puppet master and make you dance to His every whim. You actually only worship that God because He makes you do it.

 

[AustinC]

Oh right, divine meticulous determination. Your God has to control everything or He is not God. So your God has to be a puppet master and make you dance to His every whim. You actually only worship that God because He makes you do it.

What a foolish statement on your part. Take a look at my God, if you dare.

Hebrews 1:1-4
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Ephesians 1:11-14
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Psalm 115:1-3
Not to us, O Lord, not to us, but to your name give glory, for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness! Why should the nations say, “Where is their God?” Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Isaiah 14:24-27
The Lord of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand, that I will break the Assyrian in my land, and on my mountains trample him underfoot; and his yoke shall depart from them, and his burden from their shoulder.” This is the purpose that is purposed concerning the whole earth, and this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations. For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?

Isaiah 45:5-8
I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. “Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain down righteousness; let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit; let the earth cause them both to sprout; I the Lord have created it.

Psalm 22:27-28
All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you. For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations.

You are a tiresome, broken record in your rejection of God's Supremacy.

 

[Silverhair]

John Piper at the Ligonier National Conference in June 2000 said, “No Christian can be sure he is a true believer. Hence, there’s an ongoing need to be dedicated to the Lord and deny ourselves so that we might make it.”

Piper actually said this in front of Steven Lawson and other Calvinist leaders and no one challenged Him on this. Since you, as a Calvinist, have nothing to do with your salvation, including belief in the Son, this begs the question. How do you even know if you are really saved? Are your works going to be good enough or have you done enough of them? How would you know? Were you one of those chosen before the foundation of the world or do you just think you were?

Calvinists believe that those who have been truly regenerated will inevitably persevere to the end in saving faith. But how does one know that he is regenerate? The only true test is to persevere to the end in saving faith. If one fails to persevere, that person only reveals that while he may have thought his faith was real, it was only a case of self deception, or even worse, divine deception. John Calvin called this divine deception “evanescent grace”.

So my serious question for any Calvinist that cares to answer, is "How do you know for sure you are saved?"

 

[Silverhair]

What a foolish statement on your part. Take a look at my God, if you dare.

Hebrews 1:1-4
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Ephesians 1:11-14
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Psalm 115:1-3
Not to us, O Lord, not to us, but to your name give glory, for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness! Why should the nations say, “Where is their God?” Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Isaiah 14:24-27
The Lord of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand, that I will break the Assyrian in my land, and on my mountains trample him underfoot; and his yoke shall depart from them, and his burden from their shoulder.” This is the purpose that is purposed concerning the whole earth, and this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations. For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?

Isaiah 45:5-8
I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. “Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain down righteousness; let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit; let the earth cause them both to sprout; I the Lord have created it.

Psalm 22:27-28
All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you. For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations.

You are a tiresome, broken record in your rejection of God's Supremacy.

I do not question the sovereignty of God. I question your version of the sovereignty of God. The calvinist wants to control what God can and can not do, you just ignore that fact.

 

[Silverhair]

If you believe Calvinism is true and if you believe God causally determines everything and people don’t have free will, then consider the logical consequence to that belief – which is no one can know if they have the truth.

Calvinist and a non-Calvinist are each offering strong and opposite perspectives, only one can be correct. But which one? According to Calvinism God has determined both to believe what they believe. Also, if Calvinism is true then how can they say that the JW or LDS views are not valid or for that matter Muslim, Buddhist or even no faith at all. Remember God determines all things according to Calvinism. He my have just determined them to think that way and if He did that then are they not fulfilling His will for them?

Calvinism seems to lead to all kinds of problems that you do not have if you just follow the bible.

Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
Joh 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

 

[Van]

Perhaps you don't realize that Reformed Theology recognizes we act within the confines of God's will for his perfect goals. This means that there is no rogue molecule.

I realize scripture says God either allows or causes whatsoever comes to pass. Something Calvinists do not seem to grasp.

 

[Reformed1689]

Does your bible have different text in it, it must. Mine says in 1Ti 2:1-6 "ALL MEN" where do you get this "types of people" in the text. You change the meaning of all men to types of men. So you either change the meaning of ALL or you read into the text what you need to find. Either way you are changing the text of the bible to fit your theology.

Why do you find it necessary to change the clear text. Does the fact it is for ALL MEN cause a problem for your theological view?

Does the fact God desires ALL MEN to be saved bother you? What about the fact He gave Himself as a ransom for ALL? Your denial of the text shows you really do not trust the text but rather the theological position which you hold.

Orrrrrr I look at the context and determine the meaning based on context.

 

[Reformed1689]

Do you

I do not question the sovereignty of God. I question your version of the sovereignty of God. The calvinist wants to control what God can and can not do, you just ignore that fact.

Do you realize how dumb this statement is?

 

[Silverhair]

Do you

Do you realize how dumb this statement is?

Do you realize how dumb many of your comments are? Your version of the sovereignty of God is not biblical so why would you expect me to adhere to your version?