No such thing as "free will"

[AustinC]

If you believe Calvinism is true and if you believe God causally determines everything and people don’t have free will, then consider the logical consequence to that belief – which is no one can know if they have the truth.

Calvinist and a non-Calvinist are each offering strong and opposite perspectives, only one can be correct. But which one? According to Calvinism God has determined both to believe what they believe. Also, if Calvinism is true then how can they say that the JW or LDS views are not valid or for that matter Muslim, Buddhist or even no faith at all. Remember God determines all things according to Calvinism. He my have just determined them to think that way and if He did that then are they not fulfilling His will for them?

Calvinism seems to lead to all kinds of problems that you do not have if you just follow the bible.

Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
Joh 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Silverhair, this post shows you are falling upon humanist philosophy to get at your answer. Then you attempt to shore up your philosophy with a prooftext, out of context, to fit your pretext.
Thank you for posting this so that everyone can see your methodology.

 

[Silverhair]

Not true regarding Calvinists, which shows you just don't understand.

You are stating what Reformed persons state.
God ordains whatsoever he wills. What God wills...comes to pass.

So God is a universalist now, well no, that is just the way calvinists have to read
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

desires G2309
- Original: θέλω ἐθέλω
- Transliteration: thelo
- Phonetic: thel'-o
- Definition:
1. to will, have in mind, intend

Calvinism digs itself into some really good holes. Your errant theology just does not hold up to scripture does it.

 

[Silverhair]

Oh brother, it's like talking to a brick wall. You wouldn't know context if it slapped you in the face.

That is what I have been trying to point out to you. Reformed you have to read things in context and stop reading into the text what you hope to find. If and when you finally understand this then and only then will you start to see the truths in scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

That is what I have been trying to point out to you. Reformed you have to read things in context and stop reading into the text what you hope to find. If and when you finally understand this then and only then will you start to see the truths in scripture.

You mean like when you change the definition of world to individual people? That is you reading that into the text. The text does not actually say that and the usage does not necessitate that understanding. In fact, the more literal reading of John 3:16 is "For God loved the world in this way"

That does not necessitate individuals. That's general. So you accuse me and @AustinC regularly of reading things into the text when we are actually the ones that are taking the plain reading.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair, this post shows you are falling upon humanist philosophy to get at your answer. Then you attempt to shore up your philosophy with a prooftext, out of context, to fit your pretext.
Thank you for posting this so that everyone can see your methodology.

Did you miss the conditional particle "IF"? Read the verses again SLOOOWLY perhaps you will get it.

"If you believe Calvinism is true and if you believe God causally determines everything and people don’t have free will, then consider the logical consequence to that belief – which is no one can know if they have the truth."

As a calvinist you have to hope that what you understand as the truth is actually the truth. God may just be making you think it is so that when He finally opens your eyes you will realize that you have been wrong all along. You have to hope that you really are saved, because remember you had nothing to do with it. You did not even have faith until God dropped, what you have to hope was real faith, it into you.

 

[BasketFinch]

If you believe Calvinism is true and if you believe God causally determines everything and people don’t have free will, then consider the logical consequence to that belief – which is no one can know if they have the truth.

Calvinist and a non-Calvinist are each offering strong and opposite perspectives, only one can be correct. But which one? According to Calvinism God has determined both to believe what they believe. Also, if Calvinism is true then how can they say that the JW or LDS views are not valid or for that matter Muslim, Buddhist or even no faith at all. Remember God determines all things according to Calvinism. He my have just determined them to think that way and if He did that then are they not fulfilling His will for them?

Calvinism seems to lead to all kinds of problems that you do not have if you just follow the bible.

Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
Joh 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Given how much of the Bible is prophecy, the argument that insists God cannot have predetermined all things falls short.
Prophecies are God's predetermination of future events.

Further, God tells us he's made those for righteousness and those for the day of wrath. Which would explain false faiths.

The Lamb's Book of Life, containing the names of those God predestined for Salvation, was written by God before the creation of the world.

 

[BasketFinch]

John Piper at the Ligonier National Conference in June 2000 said, “No Christian can be sure he is a true believer. Hence, there’s an ongoing need to be dedicated to the Lord and deny ourselves so that we might make it.”

Piper actually said this in front of Steven Lawson and other Calvinist leaders and no one challenged Him on this. Since you, as a Calvinist, have nothing to do with your salvation, including belief in the Son, this begs the question. How do you even know if you are really saved? Are your works going to be good enough or have you done enough of them? How would you know? Were you one of those chosen before the foundation of the world or do you just think you were?

Calvinists believe that those who have been truly regenerated will inevitably persevere to the end in saving faith. But how does one know that he is regenerate? The only true test is to persevere to the end in saving faith. If one fails to persevere, that person only reveals that while he may have thought his faith was real, it was only a case of self deception, or even worse, divine deception. John Calvin called this divine deception “evanescent grace”.

So my serious question for any Calvinist that cares to answer, is "How do you know for sure you are saved?"

Probably for and through the same assurance you have.

 

[Silverhair]

You mean like when you change the definition of world to individual people? That is you reading that into the text. The text does not actually say that and the usage does not necessitate that understanding. In fact, the more literal reading of John 3:16 is "For God loved the world in this way"

That does not necessitate individuals. That's general. So you accuse me and @AustinC regularly of reading things into the text when we are actually the ones that are taking the plain reading.

Did you miss the part where it says " that whoever believes in Him" that is individuals that believe not groups. Groups may hear the gospel but each person has to accept the truth or reject it. Does God love the earth or does He love the people? I know this may be a hard concept for you to grasp but even when you say He loves the group it is still the individuals that He loves so as to save. Remember God does not save groups He saves people, individuals. Are all Jews saved are all Gentiles saved?

Just because God desires something, contrary to what Austin said, does not mean that it will happen. God desires that all men come to faith. Has it happened?

Context matters and you run in to any number of problems when you ignore it.

 

[AustinC]

Did you miss the conditional particle "IF"? Read the verses again SLOOOWLY perhaps you will get it.

"If you believe Calvinism is true and if you believe God causally determines everything and people don’t have free will, then consider the logical consequence to that belief – which is no one can know if they have the truth."

As a calvinist you have to hope that what you understand as the truth is actually the truth. God may just be making you think it is so that when He finally opens your eyes you will realize that you have been wrong all along. You have to hope that you really are saved, because remember you had nothing to do with it. You did not even have faith until God dropped, what you have to hope was real faith, it into you.

I read everything you posted and what you posted was humanist philosophy where you attempt a prooftext, out of context, to support your pretext. What you did was just awful stuff that isn't worth anyone taking seriously.
When that is exposed, you simply fall on your calvinist boogeyman as your crutch to keep you from falling.

 

[AustinC]

Did you miss the part where it says " that whoever believes in Him" that is individuals that believe not groups. Groups may hear the gospel but each person has to accept the truth or reject it. Does God love the earth or does He love the people? I know this may be a hard concept for you to grasp but even when you say He loves the group it is still the individuals that He loves so as to save. Remember God does not save groups He saves people, individuals. Are all Jews saved are all Gentiles saved?

Just because God desires something, contrary to what Austin said, does not mean that it will happen. God desires that all men come to faith. Has it happened?

Context matters and you run in to any number of problems when you ignore it.

You always ignore context.

 

[Reformed1689]

You have to hope that you really are saved, because remember you had nothing to do with it.

The Non-Calvinist has this same scenario.

 

[Reformed1689]

Did you miss the part where it says " that whoever believes in Him" that is individuals that believe not groups. Groups may hear the gospel but each person has to accept the truth or reject it. Does God love the earth or does He love the people? I know this may be a hard concept for you to grasp but even when you say He loves the group it is still the individuals that He loves so as to save. Remember God does not save groups He saves people, individuals. Are all Jews saved are all Gentiles saved?

Just because God desires something, contrary to what Austin said, does not mean that it will happen. God desires that all men come to faith. Has it happened?

Context matters and you run in to any number of problems when you ignore it.

Of course I know about the whoever. That is who Jesus died for, the whoever. God loved humanity so much that He gave His son to die for those who would believe in him. EXACTLY. God has a general love for humanity. He does not have unconditional love for all individuals. He does not love everyone to salvation otherwise all would be saved. I did not say God saves groups, unless you mean the elect. Of course he saves people and he chose which ones he would save. If God desired all individuals without exception come to faith, all would. But that isn't God's will.

 

[Silverhair]

Given how much of the Bible is prophecy, the argument that insists God cannot have predetermined all things falls short.
Prophecies are God's predetermination of future events.

Further, God tells us he's made those for righteousness and those for the day of wrath. Which would explain false faiths.

The Lamb's Book of Life, containing the names of those God predestined for Salvation, was written by God before the creation of the world.

According to what you have written here we can come to a logical conclusion. God is the author of all the sin and evil that has or will happen. Further those that are saved and those that are doomed is fixed so I have to ask, why Jesus? Those that are saved were saved without Him and those that are lost can not be saved by Him. So why was it necessary for Christ Jesus to die, be buried, and be raised if it was of no effect? You can't say it was so the people could be saved as they would never have been in the position where they needed to be saved.

Calvinist determinism when taken to it's logical conclusion is not God honoring.

 

[AustinC]

According to what you have written here we can come to a logical conclusion. God is the author of all the sin and evil that has or will happen. Further those that are saved and those that are doomed is fixed so I have to ask, why Jesus? Those that are saved were saved without Him and those that are lost can not be saved by Him. So why was it necessary for Christ Jesus to die, be buried, and be raised if it was of no effect? You can't say it was so the people could be saved as they would never have been in the position where they needed to be saved.

Calvinist determinism when taken to it's logical conclusion is not God honoring.

Humanist philosophy on display from you, Silverhair. The problem is...your thoughts are neither biblical nor logical...but they are humanist. Your conclusion is the same as any non-believer who has a low opinion of God.

 

[Silverhair]

The Non-Calvinist has this same scenario.

Actually I did, I trusted in the finished work of Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

And what is the gift of God
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So we are saved because we believe the gospel message
Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

And what is the message we are to believe
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

You have to accept this truth
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

His death paid the sin debt for all but we are saved by faith in the risen Son.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

And here is the Gordian Knot that we all struggle with.

God chose us "in Him" {Christ} before the foundation of the world
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

But we are only "in Him" {Christ} when we believe.
Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
Joh 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
Joh 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

 

[Silverhair]

I read everything you posted and what you posted was humanist philosophy where you attempt a prooftext, out of context, to support your pretext. What you did was just awful stuff that isn't worth anyone taking seriously.
When that is exposed, you simply fall on your calvinist boogeyman as your crutch to keep you from falling.

Actually I just post scripture that you just ignore.

 

[BasketFinch]

According to what you have written here we can come to a logical conclusion. God is the author of all the sin and evil that has or will happen. Further those that are saved and those that are doomed is fixed so I have to ask, why Jesus? Those that are saved were saved without Him and those that are lost can not be saved by Him. So why was it necessary for Christ Jesus to die, be buried, and be raised if it was of no effect? You can't say it was so the people could be saved as they would never have been in the position where they needed to be saved.

Calvinist determinism when taken to it's logical conclusion is not God honoring.

I'm not a Calvinist so you're not insulting me in the least.

Calvinisms doctrine, aka the Reformed tradition, was predated by Augustine. And 3ven earlier and it's all sustained by scripture.

God is Omniscient and Sovereign. God created Lucifer. And after Lucifer's fall allowed him to reenter Heaven and even confer with God. (Book of Job)
There is no thing that is not of and from the creator.

Read Isaiah 45.

 

[Silverhair]

Of course I know about the whoever. That is who Jesus died for, the whoever. God loved humanity so much that He gave His son to die for those who would believe in him. EXACTLY. God has a general love for humanity. He does not have unconditional love for all individuals. He does not love everyone to salvation otherwise all would be saved. I did not say God saves groups, unless you mean the elect. Of course he saves people and he chose which ones he would save. If God desired all individuals without exception come to faith, all would. But that isn't God's will.

Once again you ignore what God desires, which is that all men would come to salvation. Logically if not all do there can only be one of two reasons.
1] God really did not want all men to be saved which would cause us to question His character
or
2] Man really has a free will and some believe unto salvation and some did not unto condemnation. Like Christ Jesus said
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

There you go adding words to the text. God did not say "He desired all individuals without exception" did He. He said
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Why do you insist on changing the text of scripture. It really is not necessary. You just have to start trusting the bible text.

 

[BasketFinch]

Once again you ignore what God desires, which is that all men would come to salvation. Logically if not all do there can only be one of two reasons.
1] God really did not want all men to be saved which would cause us to question His character
or
2] Man really has a free will and some believe unto salvation and some did not unto condemnation. Like Christ Jesus said
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

There you go adding words to the text. God did not say "He desired all individuals without exception" did He. He said
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Why do you insist on changing the text of scripture. It really is not necessary. You just have to start trusting the bible text.

Proverbs 16:4 JPS Tanakh 1917
"The LORD hath made every things for His own purpose, Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

 

[Silverhair]

I'm not a Calvinist so you're not insulting me in the least.

Calvinisms doctrine, aka the Reformed tradition, was predated by Augustine. And 3ven earlier and it's all sustained by scripture.

God is Omniscient and Sovereign. God created Lucifer. And after Lucifer's fall allowed him to reenter Heaven and even confer with God. (Book of Job)
There is no thing that is not of and from the creator.

Read Isaiah 45.

Did not think you were a calvinist. Augustine was the one that started the ball rolling for what became Calvinism.

My conclusion still stands "Calvinist determinism when taken to it's logical conclusion is not God honoring."

I trust what the bible says but not what comes from the calvinist theology.