You stick with scripture -- you know, that same scripture in which no one was able to see Calvinist beliefs until Calvin miraculously discovered them or rather invented them.
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- Thread starter Robert William
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You stick with scripture -- you know, that same scripture in which no one was able to see Calvinist beliefs until Calvin miraculously discovered them or rather invented them.
So, stop perverting them with Calvinism.
The topic is free will, not Calvinism.
What in sam heck are you talking about!
The phrase is "What in the name of Sam Hill are you talking about?" Sam Hill was a real person from Texas. He is almost as well known as Tom Ball and Bob Wills. Back to the OP.
Arminians are heretics and you deny being a Calvinist. You self-described as being a biblicist. What in the name of Sam Hill is a biblicist?
Rebel it is best you leave the troll alone. He is only trying to get a rise out of you. Don't take the bait.
Because you don't preach sound doctrine, you are disqualified to be a Pastor.
Tit 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
And....he proves my point.
If you see me as a gainsayer, then convince me with scripture, if you are ignorant of these subjects I can wait.
I agree. But sometimes the opportunity for ridiculous humor presents itself, and I can't resist.
PreachTony
Active Member
RW - I'm sorry to hear about your mother. My condolences.
But I would like to ask you something about your comment here. You said "...I'm not sure if she put her trust in sacraments or in Christ alone."
If she had no free will, how could SHE place HER trust in Christ? Wouldn't Christ simply force her to trust Him, seeing as that's the only way we can believe without free will?
I'm sorry to dredge up potentially painful memories, but your statement above does not stand in line with your ardent stance that mankind has no free will.
Calvinism, as with all isms, is a battle waged within the intellect. But it is the heart, the spirit persuaded by Spirit, which determines what we actually believe. All Christians are free will at heart, it's how we live day to day, and it is how we even preach and teach when speaking without a written agenda. The Holy Spirit preaches free will through us in spite of any intellectually held isms. This is why we often see the contradictions between what a Calvinist declares they believe and what they actually practice in everyday conversations.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
that last statement is total nonsense.
"Whosoever will may come" --
"He came to HIS Own and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11.
The Bible flatly refute the factless arguments of Calvinism.
I have provided the "irrefutable" case from scripture that exposes the Bible deficiency of Calvinism - and Protestant's response was "yes but ... Ellen White..." (As we saw here - #73 )
With that sort of "answer" to the Bible problems confronted by Calvinism - how COULD it survive??
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
So since this is apparently "yet another thread" dedicated to Robert Williams not noticing the glaring problems from scripture confronting Calvinism --
I offer this... "again".
The irrefutable problem for Calvinism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Yes He does. "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.
"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.
God knew Judas would fail - and yet he washed his feet.
God knew His own would reject Him - and yet He came to them and yet he weeps over them in places like Matt 23. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. how I wanted to save your children...but YOU would not"
[FONT="]Hosea 11[/FONT]
[FONT="]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
[FONT="]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
[FONT="]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
[FONT="]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
[FONT="]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
[FONT="]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
[FONT="]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT="].[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]Ezek 18[/FONT][FONT="]
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT="]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT="]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]
"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1
[FONT="]2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Ezek 18[/FONT]
[FONT="]30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT="]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT="]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]
[FONT="]2Cor 5: [/FONT][FONT="]20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 Peter 3[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT="]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT="]” John 1[/FONT]
[FONT="]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT="]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT="]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]
[FONT="]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT="]28 [/FONT][FONT="]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT="]29 [/FONT][FONT="]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT="]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT]
In addition to the irrefutable problem for Calvinism as stated previously we have this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT="] Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Yes He does. "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.
"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.
[/FONT] Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT="]God who “who is willing for all mankind to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth[/FONT]”.[FONT="] 1Tim 2[/FONT]
[FONT="]“I will draw ALL mankind unto Me” John 12:32[/FONT]
[FONT="]The Holy Spirit “Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment” John 16:8[/FONT]
[FONT="]God “sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD” 1John 4:14
There is no such "World of only believers" or any such thing in the Bible when it comes to "God so Loved the World".
John 3 "God so Love the WORLD" -- "yes really"! not simply over-marketing.
John 1 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 6 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
1John 2:2 "He is the Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".
1 Tim 4:10 "10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Peter in Acts 10
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Behold I STAND at the door and knock if ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in” Rev 3[/FONT]
__________________
I offer this... "again".
The irrefutable problem for Calvinism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Yes He does. "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.
"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.
God knew Judas would fail - and yet he washed his feet.
God knew His own would reject Him - and yet He came to them and yet he weeps over them in places like Matt 23. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. how I wanted to save your children...but YOU would not"
[FONT="]Hosea 11[/FONT]
[FONT="]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
[FONT="]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
[FONT="]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
[FONT="]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
[FONT="]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
[FONT="]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
[FONT="]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT="].[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]Ezek 18[/FONT][FONT="]
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT="]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT="]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]
"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1
[FONT="]2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Ezek 18[/FONT]
[FONT="]30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT="]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT="]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]
[FONT="]2Cor 5: [/FONT][FONT="]20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 Peter 3[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT="]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT="]” John 1[/FONT]
[FONT="]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT="]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT="]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]
[FONT="]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT="]28 [/FONT][FONT="]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT="]29 [/FONT][FONT="]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT="]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT]
In addition to the irrefutable problem for Calvinism as stated previously we have this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT="] Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Yes He does. "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.
"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.
[/FONT] Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT="]God who “who is willing for all mankind to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth[/FONT]”.[FONT="] 1Tim 2[/FONT]
[FONT="]“I will draw ALL mankind unto Me” John 12:32[/FONT]
[FONT="]The Holy Spirit “Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment” John 16:8[/FONT]
[FONT="]God “sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD” 1John 4:14
There is no such "World of only believers" or any such thing in the Bible when it comes to "God so Loved the World".
John 3 "God so Love the WORLD" -- "yes really"! not simply over-marketing.
John 1 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 6 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
1John 2:2 "He is the Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".
1 Tim 4:10 "10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Peter in Acts 10
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Behold I STAND at the door and knock if ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in” Rev 3[/FONT]
__________________
Steaver, When I talk about free will, I'm referring to spiritually dead heathens, whether or not they can embrace the gospel. Born from above Christians have a free will and have willed to embrace the gospel.
Last edited by a moderator:
One is born from above only when they call upon the Lord Jesus Christ and God gives them the Holy Spirit by which they forever cry ABBA Father. If God just zapped folks into believers through regeneration apart from any choice of their own free will, then He would have implemented a different plan in the garden of Eden and avoided all of this sin and pleas to repentance.
No, Calvinism teaches that all does not mean all all the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue21vCvpoqI
So now I need to flesh this out Tony..... By your defination, what is free will? I am assuming now (remember, I said assuming) that it goes something like this : “God does not assert any power or influence over the will of human beings.” So if this is true then this is what I extrapolate in laymen terms,....you would be saying that God allows humans to do whatever we want to do because God aint a gonna do nothing about it. Do I have that right?