Nobody cares

[Robert William]

You act as though only free will believers would ever think of boasting. Cannot the Calvinist likewise boast that he is better than his neighbor because God chose him and not his neighbor?

I don't know what free will believers you have been around, RW, but if I ever heard someone boasting about being better simply because they accepted the free gift of God, then I would be the first to call them out. We do not boast. If we believe scripture, then we recognize we are saved by grace through faith, not of any work, so that no man can boast. This is applicable to the free will believer as much as to the Calvinist.

By the by, I know you claim not to be a Calvinist, but I don't think I've ever met someone who holds to so much of the Cal doctrine without claiming Calvinism as his own. It's quite impressive.

Tony, why is it that you chose and your neighbor didn't? By the way, chose is a verb a work.

 

[PreachTony]

Tony, why is it that you chose and your neighbor didn't? By the way, chose is a verb a work.

When I say "choose" I mean faith. I believed. Something we are commanded to do in the scripture. If you believe faith (believing) is a work, then we can never have true discussion on this issue.

I had asked you earlier about your mother (again, my condolences). You say that you are unaware if she placed her trust in Christ or in sacraments. Isn't "placing trust" also a verb, or a work?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF, I agree with you that my salvation is a precious, generous gift. But I know for a fact that I could have rejected it. I could have spurned God when He called my name.

How can a sinner, dead in his sin have anything but scorn & hatred in his heart....mostly for his creator? From my understanding, he is completely incapable of anything but being the enemy of a holy God. Only God can, through Grace arrest the malformed sinful creatures we have become. Tony we are damaged goods & we all are as filthy rags (menstrual clothes) there is no good in us. Therefore into that pit of depravity the Lord comes.....and He comes as a conqueror of sin. We can only acknowledge that we have been made whole again by His Grace .....yes & then cry out " Lord save me" ....because now there is realization. But still we have to recognize our sin & grieve it, feel the shame for it, repent of it & heal our lives so we can develop into the new creature we were meant to be. See, God does control that process .....that is my understanding of predestination. I do not believe that He micromanages every single action in the persons life.....that would be tad amount to creating robots & not in his divine nature.

 

[Robert William]

When I say "choose" I mean faith. I believed. Something we are commanded to do in the scripture. If you believe faith (believing) is a work, then we can never have true discussion on this issue.

I had asked you earlier about your mother (again, my condolences). You say that you are unaware if she placed her trust in Christ or in sacraments. Isn't "placing trust" also a verb, or a work?

Yes, placing trust in Christ or sacraments is a work a verb an action a choice of man.

Faith is believing, it's a verb a work an action of man making a free choice to embrace the gospel.

If you say it's by faith alone then you are saying faith is a self righteous act of man, and you are preaching salvation by works.

 

[PreachTony]

Yes, placing trust in Christ or sacraments is a work a verb an action a choice of man.

Faith is believing, it's a verb a work an action of man making a free choice to embrace the gospel.

If you say it's by faith alone then you are saying faith is a self righteous act of man, and you are preaching salvation by works.

I'll ask you like I asked SBM when he kept trying to hammer this idea into the BB: If faith is a work, then is Ephesians 2:8-9 wrong? Paul writes:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul says we are saved "by grace...through faith," but he goes on to say it is not of works. How can we be saved by faith, and it not be a work, if faith is actually a work?

 

[steaver]

I'll ask you like I asked SBM when he kept trying to hammer this idea into the BB: If faith is a work, then is Ephesians 2:8-9 wrong? Paul writes:

Paul says we are saved "by grace...through faith," but he goes on to say it is not of works. How can we be saved by faith, and it not be a work, if faith is actually a work?

Exactly! :thumbsup: To give you an honest answer, he will have to drop the faith is a work strawman.

 

[steaver]

How can a sinner, dead in his sin have anything but scorn & hatred in his heart....mostly for his creator? From my understanding, he is completely incapable of anything but being the enemy of a holy God. Only God can, through Grace arrest the malformed sinful creatures we have become.

Adam, after he sinned, was capable of acknowledging God and believing Him. Nowhere do we read of Adam having hatred towards God.

I do not believe that He micromanages every single action in the persons life.....that would be tad amount to creating robots & not in his divine nature

Yet that is where Calvinism must lead one, if it comes to pass then God caused it to come to pass, that would be everything. On the contrary, God set the plan up, within that plan God implemented a free will, otherwise, there is no true justice in condemning an individual to everlasting torment.

 

[PreachTony]

Therefore into that pit of depravity the Lord comes.....and He comes as a conqueror of sin. We can only acknowledge that we have been made whole again by His Grace .....yes & then cry out " Lord save me" ....because now there is realization. But still we have to recognize our sin & grieve it, feel the shame for it, repent of it & heal our lives so we can develop into the new creature we were meant to be.

One of the main things I've noticed over the course of many conversations is that the "free will" side is often accused of "weakening" God. We are accused of making Jesus weak by saying mankind can reject Him. Yet does not your statement present a similar case?

You say that the Lord comes "into that pit of depravity...and He comes as a conqueror of sin." If He is indeed conquering sin, then why did He not conquer sin for all mankind, instead of just an Elect few? Why leave so many (more than the Elect) in a damned state, bound for a Lake of Fire, when He is the irresistible conqueror? What glory is there in creating such a vast number of human souls with no intention of saving them from their own damnation?

Or could it actually be that He allows mankind a modicum of free will, the amount or range being arguable even among my side of the aisle, with which to accept or reject Him?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

One of the main things I've noticed over the course of many conversations is that the "free will" side is often accused of "weakening" God. We are accused of making Jesus weak by saying mankind can reject Him. Yet does not your statement present a similar case?

You say that the Lord comes "into that pit of depravity...and He comes as a conqueror of sin." If He is indeed conquering sin, then why did He not conquer sin for all mankind, instead of just an Elect few? Why leave so many (more than the Elect) in a damned state, bound for a Lake of Fire, when He is the irresistible conqueror? What glory is there in creating such a vast number of human souls with no intention of saving them from their own damnation?

Or could it actually be that He allows mankind a modicum of free will, the amount or range being arguable even among my side of the aisle, with which to accept or reject Him?

Do you realize just what you are suggesting? Think of the implications if this is true. Your eternal destiny rests in your hands. You make the decision on whether you will go to heaven or hell.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Tony, perhaps the divide on beliefs is too wide for either of us to traverse, but I have come from a free will roman Catholic background ....and when I thought of it even back then I was always confused that an Almighty God who reins Supreme would allow an idiot like me to map out my eternal salvation & have sway over my eternal life. See cause if I had then Id be destined for hell.

Now however, through the grace of God Im NOT ON THE PATH TO HELL. I needed His guidance, I needed Him to step in & to correct me from my errors (born out of sin) ....ahhhhh, OK my scripture that I rest in is

John 6:39-40New International Version (NIV)

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yet that is where Calvinism must lead one, if it comes to pass then God caused it to come to pass, that would be everything. On the contrary, God set the plan up, within that plan God implemented a free will, otherwise, there is no true justice in condemning an individual to everlasting torment.

And yet how many times have i told you Steve that I'm not a Calvinist. But tell me, do you in fact actually know the will of God? May I be so bold to suggest that maybe in fact He knows something you don't & maybe he has good reason to condemn.....after all, we are all sinners standing before a Holy God. I will be brief....I am a sinner that deserves hell. Why did the HS mess with my own personal path to eternal damnation. Truly, I do not know. so lets let it rest there....some go to heaven while others go south. I leave it to His decision. I also don't judge him....how could I, he gave me life.

 

[DHK]

Better call it the theory of implausibility or universal non - compliance rather than unified theory.:laugh:

I'll ask the same question then, that I asked else where.

The most oft-quoted verse and probably the most popular verse in the Bible, translated into hundreds of different languages, and memorized by not only hundreds, or thousands, but millions of different children all over this world is:
John 3:16.

How do you suppose all those children understand John 3:16?
Does the "whosoever" mean just the elect to them?
Does the "world" mean just the world of the elect to them?
Did God give his Son only to die for elect in that verse? Is that how they would understand it?

When they find out differently at some later time in life by some Calvinist egghead will their faith be shaken? Will that simple assurance and faith that they so freely put in the Lord Jesus Christ now be at doubt? Will they now start questioning their salvation because "perhaps they are not one of the elect" all because of some foolish teaching of some Calvinist "teacher" so-called.
What damage these people do to local churches and biblical teaching is untold. Redefining basic scriptural knowledge to make it fit into Calvin's teaching, the teaching of a man, is abhorrent.

 

[PreachTony]

Do you realize just what you are suggesting? Think of the implications if this is true. Your eternal destiny rests in your hands. You make the decision on whether you will go to heaven or hell.

I was merely trying to point out the obvious distinctions between the way our varied and different camps view the process of salvation and how we can so easily take shots at each other. That being said, I read in scripture of Jesus Christ lamenting that people would not turn to Him. Why lament if the only reason they are not turning to God is that God is not drawing them? I read of Jesus Christ inviting any who thirsts to come and take of the water freely. Why make that invitation to "any" if only a few will actually be invited. I read of Christ saying if He was lifted up He would draw all men unto Him. I read of a God who commands ALL men EVERYWHERE to repent. I simply cannot ignore these verses, as to me they reveal the nature of the free will God has blessed each of us with.

 

[steaver]

And yet how many times have i told you Steve that I'm not a Calvinist. But tell me, do you in fact actually know the will of God? May I be so bold to suggest that maybe in fact He knows something you don't & maybe he has good reason to condemn.....after all, we are all sinners standing before a Holy God. I will be brief....I am a sinner that deserves hell. Why did the HS mess with my own personal path to eternal damnation. Truly, I do not know. so lets let it rest there....some go to heaven while others go south. I leave it to His decision. I also don't judge him....how could I, he gave me life.

I believe the will of God is revealed in the scriptures, I don't find it illusive, and I don't find it Calvinistic.

Why did the HS mess with my own personal path to eternal damnation? I do know. Because that is the work of the HS, to convict the WORLD of sin and truth. What that person does with such a conviction is of their own God given free will, which will either excuse them or accuse them at the final judgment day.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe the will of God is revealed in the scriptures, I don't find it illusive, and I don't find it Calvinistic.

Why did the HS mess with my own personal path to eternal damnation? I do know. Because that is the work of the HS, to convict the WORLD of sin and truth. What that person does with such a conviction is of their own God given free will, which will either excuse them or accuse them at the final judgment day.

So you dont believe that God is silent in anything?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I was merely trying to point out the obvious distinctions between the way our varied and different camps view the process of salvation and how we can so easily take shots at each other. That being said, I read in scripture of Jesus Christ lamenting that people would not turn to Him. Why lament if the only reason they are not turning to God is that God is not drawing them? I read of Jesus Christ inviting any who thirsts to come and take of the water freely. Why make that invitation to "any" if only a few will actually be invited. I read of Christ saying if He was lifted up He would draw all men unto Him. I read of a God who commands ALL men EVERYWHERE to repent. I simply cannot ignore these verses, as to me they reveal the nature of the free will God has blessed each of us with.

But Christ was lifted up...so why hasnt ALL been saved?

And you appear then to ignore ....
John 6:37-39 (KJV)

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[BobRyan]

Tony, you can boast that you are better in some way than your neighbor, because you chose to embrace the gospel and he didn't, scripture teaches that you shouldn't have anything to boast about, but you boast that you are smarter, wiser, more loving or something than your neighbor.

Tony, a man choose only according to his sin nature.

Both of those statements are false according to the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The irrefutable problem for Calvinism.


=============================== begin quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Yes He does. "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.

"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

God knew Judas would fail - and yet he washed his feet.

God knew His own would reject Him - and yet He came to them and yet he weeps over them in places like Matt 23. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. how I wanted to save your children...but YOU would not"


[FONT=&quot]Hosea 11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

[FONT=&quot]2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2Cor 5: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

========================================================= end quote

In addition to the irrefutable problem for Calvinism as stated previously we have this...


====================================================
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan

[FONT=&quot] Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Yes He does. "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.

"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

[/FONT] Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT=&quot]God who “who is willing for all mankind to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth[/FONT]”.[FONT=&quot] 1Tim 2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“I will draw ALL mankind unto Me” John 12:32[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Holy Spirit “Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment” John 16:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God “sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD” 1John 4:14

There is no such "World of only believers" or any such thing in the Bible when it comes to "God so Loved the World".

John 3 "God so Love the WORLD" -- "yes really"! not simply over-marketing.
John 1 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 6 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
1John 2:2 "He is the Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".
1 Tim 4:10 "10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Peter in Acts 10
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Behold I STAND at the door and knock if ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in” Rev 3[/FONT]






__________________==========================



And instead of extracting Calvinism from the problem of the texts above - the free will choice of many Calvinists is to "dig the whole deeper"

Tony, a man choose only according to his sin nature.

 

[PreachTony]

But Christ was lifted up...so why hasnt ALL been saved?

Christ also said that there is a broad path and wide gate that leads to destruction, and many enter it, while there is a narrow way and a strait gate through which few enter which is the right way to go. According to the Calvinist, those that go through the broad gate do so not because they rejected God, but because they were never chosen to begin with. They were never even given a chance by our supposedly Loving and Caring God, but were simply made to be destroyed with everlasting fire. They were made so God could destroy them and so God could take glory in destroying them. That is not the God I read of in the scripture.

If it is the God you see, then I would agree that the gulf between us might be too far to span.

 

[BobRyan]

But Christ was lifted up...so why hasnt ALL been saved?

All are drawn. But all are not zombie-forced.

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11


[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]