Non-Baptist Religions and Security of the Believer

[Watchman]

Common sense: If one has eternal life and, let's say ten years later, loses it, then whatever he/she had was not eternal life, but a ten year life. How can it be any other way? We do not deserve to go there and we do not deserve to stay there.
As for the charge that this is a license to live anyway one wants to: If you are saved and you are a child of God, God will discipline you like you would your children. If a parent looked out the window at his/her children and saw them doing something seriously wrong, would the parent go out and shoot them?
Now, if one is not disciplined by God, he/she is not His child. You don't correct children that are not your own. (Okay, some kids you see at the grocery store you would like to!) Sitting here, I do not know what the spiritual state of Ananias and his wife was. It sounds as though they committed a sin onto death; that is, just as the children above should probably be brought inside and have their outdoor priveleges revoked, these two were brought inside i.e., loss of this life.

 

[tyndale1946]

Originally posted by WonderingOne:

I believe we can lose fellowship with God if we stop seeking His face, or stop putting him first in our lives. But I do not believe that once we have accepted Christ as our Savior, God disowns us.

Amen... WonderingOne... But I will venture one step further... We love him because he first loved us

According to the 11th Chapter of Romans both Jews and Gentiles were concluded in unbelief that God might have mercy on all!... Brother Glen

& Sister Charlotte

 

[hrhema]

Ananias and Sapphira both lied to the Holy Ghost.
They both died with unrepentant sin in their hearts. The Bible plainly states that liars will not inherit the Kingdom of God or Heaven.

These two willfully conspired to lie to the Holy Ghost. They willfully chose to sin. The scriptures make it clear that you cannot willfully sin and in the end make Heaven. These two did not repent. They died unrepentant.

The words eternal life is future promise. If it was present then man would not die because they have become eternal. These words are assurance that if we live for God and continue in the faith we will have eternal life.

So many people have taken and twisted scriptures to fit an easy believism. They claim that the Bible says all they have to do is believe and they will be saved. That they can do as they please. Live like they please and in the end be saved. Sorry, but the Bible does not teach this.

Jesus said in Matthew 5 that unless we obey God better than the religious teachers we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven at all. So obedience to Gods commandments is necessary.

Everytime the Apostle Paul addressed the grace versus law issue it was because of ceremonial laws such as circumcision. Never once did Paul tell Christians they did not have to obey the Ten Commandments or the moral law. Matter fact Paul many times made it very clear that those who violated these would not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Peter said if the righteous are SCARCELY SAVED.
Why would they scarcely be saved if Easy Believism is the truth?

John said, "And how can we be sure that we belong to him? By obeying his commandments."

 

[Dualhunter]

^ Good luck. Just remember that if you get tired of failing to earn your way in to heaven, Christ paid the way for you.

 

[BobRyan]

Seeking to answer the dilemma of Luke 8:4-14 Dual writes...

DualHunter
Those in those 2 kinds of ground appear to be alive because of their apparent growth, however they are not born again Christians.

Wishfull thinking at best Dual.

In fact -- instead of condemning the Thorny and Rocky ground for "failure to remain LOST and falling into a lostER condition" as your argument above proposes... The text ACTUALLY shows that LIFE sprang up and FAILURE to CONTINUE in that form was due to letting the cares of the world CROWD OUT that GOOD thing that was begun.

Notice that the Word is BELIEVED and RECEIVED with FAITH and LIFE springs out of the DEAD in the illustration.

But in YOUR preferred version - there is NO life, No real faith, no true believe, it is only the FIRST case of the "roadside" where NOTHING ever sprang to life. And in fact "ENDURING" in the first "false-life-state" as you paint it - would STILL have been a "bad thing". Whereas in CHRIST version INDURING was a GOOD thing - since the LIFE that started is NOT what was in doubt but rather the ENDURANCE - the failure to CONTINUE on that road of ESTABLISHED life.

The parable could not BE more devastating to Calvinism.

And no wonder - it was told by an "arminian" - or at least one who believed in free will.

DualH
If they were they'd be secure in God's hand just as He promised and they would not have left just as John writing by the Holy Spirit stated:

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. - 1 John 2:19 NASB

The idea of MANY forms of FAILURE is the point of Luke 8:4-14. If John identifies ONE OF THOSE FORMS - the FIRST FORM where LIFE never had sprung up from the start - that does NOTHING to eliminate the other forms of failure that Christ identifies.

You can not use the FIRST ground to delete the truths taught in the 2nd and 3rd ground examples.

Have another go at it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Dualhunter]

On closer inspection, my previous statement was partially wrong:

"Those in those 2 kinds of ground appear to be alive because of their apparent growth, however they are not born again Christians."

11 "Now the parable is this: (11) the seed is the word of God.
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance. - Luke 8:11-15 NASB

Verses 12 and 15 we probably both agree on.
Verse 12 describes those who reject the gospel.
Verse 15 describes the ideal fruitful Christians.

Verse 14 describes a Christian who is not fruitful, one who is saved but only as by fire. Even in the correspondig verse 7, the thorns do not kill the plant but merely prevent it from bearing fruit.

Verse 13 describes a person who does not appear to be truly born again, the person has no root. Such a person hears the word and for it sounds good but their heart is not changed, they are not a new creature in Christ and so when their enviroment changes they leave.

As John stated, their falling away shows that they were never truly Christians.

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. - 1 John 2:19 NASB

 

[BobRyan]

Verse 14 describes a Christian who is not fruitful, one who is saved but only as by fire. Even in the correspondig verse 7, the thorns do not kill the plant but merely prevent it from bearing fruit.

As Christ says in John 15 when no fruit is present "They are cut off of the vine and cast into the fire".

As Christ says in Matt 7 of those whose fruit does not SHOW them to be born-again "the do not enter the kingdom of heaven".

The Salvation of the fruitless - is not presented in the Gospel accounts that Christ gives.

Once he identifies the group that bears no fruit - the John 15 scenario takes them "into the fire".

Verse 13 describes a person who does not appear to be truly born again, the person has no root. Such a person hears the word and for it sounds good but their heart is not changed, they are not a new creature in Christ and so when their enviroment changes they leave.

In verse 13 - they fully "believe" and receive the JOY of salvation. The problem is not that LIFE does not spring up from the dead barren lifeless ground. It does. In fact the emphasis on true "belief" and "JOY" of salvation that you get in vs 13 is MORE than what you get from the example of vs 14's thorny ground. Such strong affirmations are not given for the start given to the thorny ground "life".

And notice - it is not failure "to start" that is the problem in vs 13. It is "Failure to REMAIN alive and growing".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by hrhema:
Ananias and Sapphira both lied to the Holy Ghost.
They both died with unrepentant sin in their hearts. The Bible plainly states that liars will not inherit the Kingdom of God or Heaven.

Accordingly, Heaven will be fairly empty.

Rom.3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;
DHK

 

[Dualhunter]

15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. - 1 Corinthians 3:15 NASB

I suppose the above refers to faithful and fruitful Christians.

 

[FRED WILSON]

THE BIBLE SAYS,
1John 5;12-13-He who hath the Son hath life,and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Verse 13-These things have i written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God;that ye may know that ye have eternal life,and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Receiving Christ,we are born into God's family through the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit who indwells every believer...this is called regeneration or the new birth.

God Bless.

 

[hrhema]

DHK: You totally missed the point. Ananias and Sapphira died with lies on their lips. Unrepentant sin.

Too many people think that the sacrifice of Jesus removed all sins and that they never everhave to ask for giveness again. That they can keep living in deep sin. This is false doctrine. The Bible does not teach this. This is why Jesus is called our Mediator and High Priest. He mediates for our present sins and failures.

The sacrifice Jesus made was the price and the penalty that sins can be forgiven by God. Blood has always been the source of God's forgiveness.
This is why animals were sacrificed.

When Jesus died the blood sacrifice was made. That was the supreme penalty. That opened up the door for man's salvation. It allowed man access to the Holy of Holies. Yet, it did not give man the right to continue living in sin.

People mix up works with sinning. They are not the same. Works is going to church. Giving offerings. Teaching a sunday school class. Giving a Bible class or lesson. Singing in the choir or specials and on and on.

The sacrifice on Calvary did away with all ceremonial laws. No more holding to sabbaths and feasts. No more need for circumcision and ritual cleansings. No more dietary laws. These are what Paul was speaking about when he said works was not necessary for salvation. Yet Paul made it very clear that moral law is still in effect and those who violated them would not be part of the Kingdom of Heaven.

This is why we ask for forgiveness. People sin and fall short of the Glory of God but people have the ability to say God Please Forgive me.
Ananias and Sapphira did not do this. Thus they were lost.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by hrhema:
DHK: You totally missed the point. Ananias and Sapphira died with lies on their lips. Unrepentant sin.

Is this like the Catholic doctrine of mortal sin? God doesn't distinguish between sin. When I came to Christ, He forgave all my sin: the past, present, and future.
Rom.8:1 "There is therefore now NO condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." NO CONDEMNATON. I would say that is a fairly clear statement about one's salvation.

Too many people think that the sacrifice of Jesus removed all sins and that they never everhave to ask for giveness again. That they can keep living in deep sin. This is false doctrine. The Bible does not teach this. This is why Jesus is called our Mediator and High Priest. He mediates for our present sins and failures.

Your concept of the Christian life is wrong. No one is saying that salvation is a licence to sin. Far be it from that. In fact Paul said just the opposite:

Rom.5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom.6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

2Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
--A true Christian is changed from the inside out. He is a new creature in Christ. His old habits of sin will gradually pass away, and he will gradually conform more and more to the image of Christ. There will be obvious change for the better in his life.

Obviously that doesn't mean that a Christian will not sin. John writing to Christians said:

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
--This concerns our fellowship with God, not our salvation. Everyday we need to come to him and confess our sin to remain in good standing with Christ--not to maintain our salvation, but rather our fellowship with Christ. But look at verse 10. If you say you have no sin, not only are you a liar, you make Christ a liar, and His Word is not in you. You are not even saved. Perhaps the incident with Ananias and Sapphira was evidence that they were human, fallible, sinners like us. They sinned. The judgement upon them did not necessarily send them to Hell. There is no proof of that. The judgemet was an example to other believers of the seriousness of sin. Take a look at 1Cor.11:30.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
--Were all those believers that died (sleep) "unbelievers?"
DHK

 

[Dualhunter]

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. - Romans 10:4-5 NASB

The above is what Paul means by "works". As already mentioned by DHK, being bought by the blood of Christ is not a license to sin:

16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. - 1 Peter 2:16 NASB

None of that changes this fact however:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB

 

[Frank]

Hrhema:
Sin is the transgresssion of the law. I John 3:4.
Sin damns us. Romans 3:23,I John 5: 17.
Sin must be forgiven through repentance. Luke 13:3.
Sin not forgiven through repentance causes death. I John 5:17.
The parables of the soils is one of the best commentaries I know of for forfeiting salvation. Luke 8. Furthermore, In John 6 the Bible says many of his disciples turned away and walked with him no more. Can a man not walk with Christ and be saved? Can a man thta refuses Jesus asked the 12 " will ye also go away?" Peter replied to whom shall we go Lord thou hast the words of life. " God will hold us in his hand IF we will let him. John 10: 29-31.
John, in the book of revelation, said nothing shall enter in to heaven that is defiled. Of the defiled, he stated specifically that it included whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. The Bible teaches that Aninias and Saphira were lost through their Lie to God. Acts 5:1. Any unrepentant sin will cause us to be lost. I John 5:17.

 

[Dualhunter]

My you are very powerful Frank. You can snatch yourself from the hand of God! Forgive me for not believing you.

 

[Frank]

Dual:
The Bible says we have a choice to follow or not to follow. Again, Jesus proclaimed this in John 6. Peter chose the words of Christ. John 6. However, he also rejected him. Mat. 27. Jesus, in John 21 restored him to service in the kingdom. The Bible teaches men can and do leave their first love and should repent. Rev. 3:19. If they do not, they will be lost. Luke 13;3, II Tim. 2:25-27, Acts 8.12-20.
Jesus also warned the Christians of the seven churches he would remove their candlestick if they did not repent. Eternal reward is received by keeping his commandments, not the refusal to walk in them. Rev. 22:14, Rev 14:13. Let WHOSOEVER WILL come and drink of the water of life freely, not whosoever is forced to come. Rev. 22:17.
The Bible is replete with warninngs of the faithful becoming unfaithful. Jude, II Tim. 4:1-4, I Tim. 4:1-6. The book of Revelation is an exhortation to remaining faithful. Rev. 2:10, Rev. 7:12-16. It also warns of the perils of not remaining faithful. Rev. 20:10.
Men can and do fall from grace. Gal. 5:3-5. Judas was chosen of God and went to his own place because of his transgression. Acts 1:25. Where does the Bible teach his own place is? Heaven or Hell? I John 5:17.
This is what the Bible teaches. I choose to believe it and make no apology for doing so.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan --

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DualHunter -- Verse 14 describes a Christian who is not fruitful, one who is saved but only as by fire. Even in the correspondig verse 7, the thorns do not kill the plant but merely prevent it from bearing fruit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As Christ says in John 15 when no fruit is present "They are cut off of the vine and cast into the fire".

This is not the WORKS of the person being burned - it is the Person grafted into the vine - that is cut out and burned... hard to miss

As Christ says in Matt 7 of those whose fruit does not SHOW them to be born-again "the do not enter the kingdom of heaven".

The Salvation of the fruitless - is not presented in the Gospel accounts that Christ gives.

Once he identifies the group that bears no fruit - the John 15 scenario takes them "into the fire".


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DualHunter --
Verse 13 describes a person who does not appear to be truly born again, the person has no root. Such a person hears the word and for it sounds good but their heart is not changed, they are not a new creature in Christ and so when their enviroment changes they leave.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In verse 13 - they fully "believe" and receive the JOY of salvation. The problem is not that LIFE does not spring up from the dead barren lifeless ground. It does. In fact the emphasis on true "belief" and "JOY" of salvation that you get in vs 13 is MORE than what you get from the example of vs 14's thorny ground. Such strong affirmations are not given for the start given to the thorny ground "life".

And notice - it is not failure "to start" that is the problem in vs 13. It is "Failure to REMAIN alive and growing".

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18 shows "forgiveness revoked".

Luke 8 shows two kinds of ground where the spiritual dead Spring to LIFE in Chirst but fail to REMAIN alive.

The position that they "sprang to DEATH and failed to remain dead and so proved themselve to be dead" is the circular argument of the OSAS position and does not work in the text.

There is no way to exegete that OSAS position out of Luke 8.

In christ,

Bob

 

[Dualhunter]

Matthew 18 does not show forgiveness revoked. What it does show is that the unforgiving heart finds no forgiveness.

35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." - Matthew 18:35 NASB

No where does it say that they had forgiveness and then it was revoked. Instead it says that if they are unwilling to forgive, they will not be forgiven. If they do not have forgiveness, it cannot be revoked.

15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. - 1 Corinthians 3:15 NASB

I suppose the above refers to faithful and fruitful Christians.

As for the rest, no use in repeating arguments.

Judas was chosen of God and went to his own place because of his transgression.

Judas was never saved and not only that He died before the Spirit was given. Judas was a thief before betraying Jesus.

Jesus also warned the Christians of the seven churches he would remove their candlestick if they did not repent.

Notice that it is the churches who will have their candlestick removed. Nothing is mentioned of Christians losing salvation.

And so again I repeat myself:

My you are very powerful Frank. You can snatch yourself from the hand of God! Forgive me for not believing you.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 18 does not show forgiveness revoked. What it does show is that the unforgiving heart finds no forgiveness.

35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." - Matthew 18:35 NASB

No where does it say that they had forgiveness and then it was revoked. Instead it says that if they are unwilling to forgive, they will not be forgiven. If they do not have forgiveness, it cannot be revoked.

The MAtt 18 story makes its point 'you SHOULD have forgiven your brother that small debt AS I FORGAVE YOU the large debt". This is the entire BASIS for the MAtt 18 story.

It starts with the sinner owing God a huge debt. Then FORGIVENESS is granted. But then the sinner does not SHOW THAT SAME spirit of forgiveness that God provided for HIM. The ARGUMENT of the chapter is that SINCE he already EXPERIENCED a HUGE blessing of forgiveness - he SHOULD have had the grace to forgiven that SMALL amount owed to him by his fellow slave.

In the end - he is made to PAY BACK the HUGE debt that was ALREADY forgiven.

"So Shall My Father do to EACH OF YOU". It is an argument TO the forgiven that they TOO must forgive AS they have been forgiven.

It is NOT an argument to the Lost "YOU TOO should forgive others or you will be LostER".

This text is devastating to OSAS - there is not amount of reworking it to reconcile "Forgiveness revoked" with OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob