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Non-Cals prayer for Non-Believers

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Inspector Javert

Active Member
Luke2427 said:
It seems to me that no matter how you slice it, you still have God not doing everything he can to save everybody.
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That is only so if a man's praying for the lost is arbitrary and not previously interrelated to what God will do in a man's heart.

In some sense, an Arminian can agree with the Calvinist that God has pre-destined the MEANS as well as the salvation of the elect. Not in the same way...

But enough such that God is able to both "do all he can" and also work through the prayers of the Saints as well. The prayers of the saints aren't arbitrary while God's choice to call all men isn't. An Arminian would likely assume they work in perfect harmony with one another, even if they aren't positive how exactly God does so.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Inspector Javert said:
Since when is free-will a "gift" or even necessarily a "good" thing?

It's simply a fact of life.
You have steeped yourself so far into Calvinism that you are assuming Arminians must think free-will to be an inherently "good" thing, that we "WANT". Only Calvinists think that freedom of Will is always something
to be desperately DESIRED.

Arminians think that to not have a free-will would exonnerate us from sin.

To think that Arminians desire to have freedom of will is as reasonable as thinking that Calvinists desire to have a sin nature.

Calvinist carping about how Arminians "cling" to their freedom of will, and defend the notion, as though we regarded it as somehow precious or inherently to be desired is absurd of them, and always makes me chuckle.

Freedom of Will is simply a-priori fact...
It's not a "gift".
It just is.
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I’d add that a hard line approach is not necessarily reflective of belief for either the Arminian or Calvinist. Traditional Arminianism does not grant human nature the freedom of choosing God - rather they hold that it is the grace of God through the Holy Spirit that allows men (all men) to choose God. Calvinism does not reject free will (as defined as free human agency - the ability to choose) although it does insist (like the Arminian) that apart from grace man will not choose God. There are, of course, vast differences how free choice fits into the matter, but the difference may be less a matter of free will than the posts here suggest...or as least not as encompassing as defining the view of each camp as a whole.
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V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Up to seven pages now and still no one is asserting what scripture says about praying for the lost. Are we to test God, please God, soften the heart of so and so. Or are we to pray, please God help me boldly proclaim your gospel and be an effective witness. Has no one actually read God on this topic?
 
steaver

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Van said:
Up to seven pages now and still no one is asserting what scripture says about praying for the lost. Are we to test God, please God, soften the heart of so and so. Or are we to pray, please God help me boldly proclaim your gospel and be an effective witness. Has no one actually read God on this topic?
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I didn't know the bible said anything about praying for the lost, please share the scriptures.
 
Greektim

Greektim

Well-Known Member
Van said:
Up to seven pages now and still no one is asserting what scripture says about praying for the lost. Are we to test God, please God, soften the heart of so and so. Or are we to pray, please God help me boldly proclaim your gospel and be an effective witness. Has no one actually read God on this topic?
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Dude, are you kidding me!?!? YOu must have me on ignore b/c I have referenced Scripture in multiple posts. Jaded much?
 
Greektim

Greektim

Well-Known Member
steaver said:
Amen! :thumbsup:


Now, you asked how a non-cal prays for the lost. Well, we have Paul as an example.
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So was Paul pleading that the unsaved would make the right choice??? Or was it that God might save them (effectually)?
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonC said:
It does not over simplify the Arminian position, it misrepresents that position.

(e.g.: “You provided salvation for every person” is universalism, not Arminianism. “Every person has the equal opportunity to that salvation” should have left out “equal.” The “freedom to choose” is not a “gift” but an attribute in that view, and keep in mind that many Calvinists believe we have the ‘freedom to choose’ but always choose in accord with our fallen nature. The idea that an Arminian would not be grateful for salvation based on the logical outcome of their theology is also incorrect - salvation remains a grace of God rather than man although our philosophical arguments will try to show otherwise).

But...as you point out...it is a satire. Perhaps the topic of the satire not only applies to Arminian "inconsistencies" but also Calvinistic misjudgments.
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We are still left with the unpleasant truth that God is not planning to have all sinners saved by his grace and mercy, that He had determined who those are, and that the classic Arminian doctrine would imply that He wants/desires and has provided the means needed to save all, but he lives that ultimate choice with the vaunted "free will!"
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Earth said:
Re

Define lost please......does it mean reprobate or does it mean not regenerated yet?
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If you tell a sinner about jesus, one who has not been saved yet by God, do you pray that God would open them up to receive and act upon what they heard?
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apparently everyone posting believes the one and only verse that addresses praying for the lost is Romans 10:1. So nothing else God said bears on the topic! Good Golly Miss Molly. Talk about wandering stars.

News flash, we must consider every, repeat every, statement God makes on the topic before we assert that testing God by asking Him to unilaterally save others is in the name of Jesus.
 
Greektim

Greektim

Well-Known Member
Van said:
Apparently everyone posting believes the one and only verse that addresses praying for the lost is Romans 10:1. So nothing else God said bears on the topic! Good Golly Miss Molly. Talk about wandering stars.

News flash, we must consider every, repeat every, statement God makes on the topic before we assert that testing God by asking Him to unilaterally save others is in the name of Jesus.
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So I should have just said, "read the Bible," when you asked for Scriptural support? I see.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Yeshua1 said:
We are still left with the unpleasant truth that God is not planning to have all sinners saved by his grace and mercy, that He had determined who those are, and that the classic Arminian doctrine would imply that He wants/desires and has provided the means needed to save all, but he lives that ultimate choice with the vaunted "free will!"
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I believe that God desires that none should perish and that He has provided the means needed to save all, but not that that He leaves the ultimate choice with man.
 
J

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Greektim said:
How do you pray for the lost? What exactly do you say/ask of God?

This is curious to me. I may press your ideas, but I am truly inquisitive.
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Arminian prayers usually involve the phrase "my will be done", either in word or in sentiment.
 
padredurand

padredurand

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JohnDeereFan said:
Arminian prayers usually involve the phrase "my will be done", either in word or in sentiment.
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You need to get out more JDF! What ever brand of Arminians you're surrounded by must be half a bubble off level. I don't know of any that stumble over "Thy will be done..." in the Lord's prayer.

You might be surprised to know there are Arminians that can read these words in James and offer a hearty AMEN!

James 4:13-15 NAS77
13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow, we shall go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit."
14 Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.
15 Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that."
 
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