Non-Calvinists: Best argument?

[Rippon]

TT : does hate mean hate in Romans 9:13 for instance ?

 

[Baptist in Socialist Land]

Here's my best argument.

The Reformation was a try to Reform the Roman Catholic Whore,
anything that came out of there wheter it be Lutheranism, Calvinism or any other weirdo teaching is Reformed Catholicism.

Remember if you have something totally rotten, in this case Roman Catholicism, you won't purge out the leaven with your new ideas.

Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

In this case you have A LOT of leaven...

So the word here would be to REPENT!

 

[Timtoolman]

Must have missed this?

Mark 10/;21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

 

[webdog]

TT : does hate mean hate in Romans 9:13 for instance ?

Since Romans 9 is dealing with Israel and not salvation...no. Does hate mean hate when we are told to hate our brothers, parents and ourselves?

 

[skypair]

WB and TT : Calvinists subscribe to Calvinism . SP has habitually said disgraceful and even blasphemous things about those who hold to Calvinism . Yes , of course he loves to distort our beliefs and will continue to say untrue things about us even when corrected a multitude of times .

rip --- the things I mention, if I understand them correctly, are contradictions to scripture. I am inviting you to disprove my assertions and hope you can for I know that even you don't want to be a false teacher.

The OP invited the comment I made. I made an observation that seems to be true -- that Calvinism's God hates most infants from the womb and if they were to die, Calvinism would have to make extra-biblical provisions for the salvation of those that they claim would be saved.

Please educate me on this issue and stop taking credible observations as insults worthy of banishment.

TT : does hate mean hate in Romans 9:13 for instance ?

Here's an example. Apparently you don't have an answer. Is that right? Maybe you have been teaching something that wasn't right.


skypair

 

[skypair]

Since Romans 9 is dealing with Israel and not salvation...no. Does hate mean hate when we are told to hate our brothers, parents and ourselves?

I agree with you. Maybe this will show Calvinism how to actually use these Rom 9-11 passages on "election."

skypair

 

[Rippon]

Since Romans 9 is dealing with Israel and not salvation...no. Does hate mean hate when we are told to hate our brothers, parents and ourselves?

That is so silly when you ignore verses like 22 and 23 . Of course it has to do with salvation .

Deal with what I said . Does the word 'hate' in Romans 9:13 mean hate or something else ?

 

[Rippon]

rip --- I know that even you don't want to be a false teacher

"Even you" shame on you SP .

 

[Rippon]

The OP invited the comment I made. I made an observation that seems to be true -- that Calvinism's God hates most infants from the womb

A classic stupid remark by SP .

 

[Rippon]

Please educate me on this issue and stop taking credible observations as insults worthy of banishment.

You took a verse and applied it to Calvinism . Calvinists adhere to Calvinism . The verse you connected with Calvinism is Romans 1:23 . It says : "and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles." ( NIV )

You have the gall to say that is a credible observation ?! You spew nonsense and insults of the worst kind SP .

 

[webdog]

That is so silly when you ignore verses like 22 and 23 . Of course it has to do with salvation .

Deal with what I said . Does the word 'hate' in Romans 9:13 mean hate or something else ?

What part of "no" didn't you understand? NO it is not dealing with hate as we know the term in english. Romans 9-11 is in regards to Israel's sovereign election and redemption, NOT individual salvation. What's silly is the hermeunetical approach taken by calvinists applying this chapter to God's election of individuals to salvation unconditionally.

 

[webdog]

A classic stupid remark by SP .

True class.....

 

[Rippon]

True class.....

Okay join Sp in his class . Did you even bother to read what he said about Calvinism's God ? If his remark doesn't qualify as stupid , nothing does .

 

[Rippon]

What part of "no" didn't you understand? NO it is not dealing with hate as we know the term in english. Romans 9-11 is in regards to Israel's sovereign election and redemption, NOT individual salvation. What's silly is the hermeunetical approach taken by calvinists applying this chapter to God's election of individuals to salvation unconditionally.

I know you have trouble expressing yourself with a direct answer WB . I'll ask again -- what does the word "hate" mean in Romans 9:13 ?

Romans 9 certainly does deal with individual salvation as well as reprobation .

Verses 22 and 23 : What if God , choosing to show his wrath and make his power known , bore with great patience the objects of his wrath -- prepared for destruction ? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy whom he prepared in advance for glory

 

[webdog]

I know you have trouble expressing yourself with a direct answer WB . I'll ask again -- what does the word "hate" mean in Romans 9:13 ?

Romans 9 certainly does deal with individual salvation as well as reprobation .

Verses 22 and 23 : What if God , choosing to show his wrath and make his power known , bore with great patience the objects of his wrath -- prepared for destruction ? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy whom he prepared in advance for glory

You're a riot..."no" is not a direct answer? :laugh:

Hate is rejection in Romans 9:13, not the absence of love. Romans 22-23 in no way support individual salvation but nations. It is VERY clear if it is taken in proper context.

 

[skypair]

You have the gall to say that is a credible observation ?! You spew nonsense and insults of the worst kind SP .

What I said was that, by comparing Calvinism's interpretation of Rom 9:11-13 where God hates Esau from the womb before either had done any wrong, you make God out to be a God of hate (which God would be like man). I am not alone in this observation, BTW. Sermons from the "Founder's Seminar" on unity found the same observations coming from some of those participants -- "hates and condemns infants."

Alternatively, I asked you to explain that another way to understand that verse. I would hope it was only a "stupid" statement on my part but you have not rersponded with an intelligible answer. BTW, "hating Esau" doesn't appear in scripture until Malachi and refers to his descendants who continually attacked and were against Isaac's descendants. But Calvinism tries to make this "hate" to be about fetuses.

skypair

 

[Timtoolman]

Again

Mark 10/;21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

[qoute=Rip] You're right SP. There is no such thing in the Bible . God hates the sinner . He hates all who do wrong according to Psalm 5:5 [qoute]

 

[Rippon]

You're right SP. There is no such thing in the Bible . God hates the sinner . He hates all who do wrong according to Psalm 5

Do believe otherwise ? Does God love the sinner , but only hates the sin in your estimation ?

Ps. 11:5 : The Lord examines the righteous , but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates .

So hate is not really hate here ?

Ps. 53:5 ... for God despised them .

So God did not really despise them ?

Proverbs 3:32 : for the Lord tetests a perverse man ...

So the Lord doesn't really detest here ?!

Proverbs 11:20 : The Lord detests men of perverse heart ...

So the Lord doesn't really detest them ?!

I could cite many more passages where you ( to maintain your position ) would have to go against God's Holy Word .

 

[Timtoolman]

The answer may be right there!

I guess then Rippon we have a contradiction or we both have an explanation why these verses seem to contradict. Mine is yes God and we can and do hate the sin but love the sinner. Yours seems to be that other verses that say otherwise (God does love the peson) do not exsist. I can post more too if you like. I was just wondering, cause I know you do have one, what your reasoning was for the tension here.

Tim

 

[Rippon]

What I said was that, by comparing Calvinism's interpretation of Rom 9:11-13 where God hates Esau from the womb before either had done any wrong, you make God out to be a God of hate ...



skypair

God is called Love . Yet he is shown to hate some individuals . Scripture does not refer to Him as Hate as such , so I will not . But I know that the Lord is not just a giant fuzzball who is not about wrath and judgment .The Bible presents Him as loving and expressing hatred as well . It's not one or the other . Remember that God is God and not human . If you forget that fact you will end up in perpetual confusion .