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Non-physical Humanity (was Millennium Thread)
- Thread starter asterisktom
- Start date
You see, Tom? Say the word 'spiritual' in a hive of Darbyists and you're finished.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Claiming that Jesus now lives in a non-physical spiritual body has many important ramifications. The Spirit revealed that the beast and the false prophet will be cast alive into the lake of fire:
Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
These human beings will be cast into that place in their physical bodies.
A thousand years later, the devil will be cast into that same place, and the beast and the false prophet will still be alive in torment there:
Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
If one were to deny that physical bodies, such as those of the beast and the false prophet, can exist in a "spiritual" realm, such as heaven or the lake of fire, one would deny what the Bible says about the eternal conscious torment of the wicked.
Rev. 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
I wonder if those who are advocating that Jesus now lives in a "spiritual, non-physical" body also deny this key doctrine that wicked humans will be tormented eternally in their physical bodies.
Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
These human beings will be cast into that place in their physical bodies.
A thousand years later, the devil will be cast into that same place, and the beast and the false prophet will still be alive in torment there:
Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
If one were to deny that physical bodies, such as those of the beast and the false prophet, can exist in a "spiritual" realm, such as heaven or the lake of fire, one would deny what the Bible says about the eternal conscious torment of the wicked.
Rev. 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
I wonder if those who are advocating that Jesus now lives in a "spiritual, non-physical" body also deny this key doctrine that wicked humans will be tormented eternally in their physical bodies.
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I've been waiting for someone to make an issue of the wounds in His hands and side.
Those are still visible, but no stripes on His back, no bald patches where His beard was torn out. No impression of the thorny crown. And nothing said about His feet.
[Edit: Oh, I see it now.]
Those are still visible, but no stripes on His back, no bald patches where His beard was torn out. No impression of the thorny crown. And nothing said about His feet.
[Edit: Oh, I see it now.]
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
says who?
1 Cor 15:44, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body"
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
The scriptures tell us that we believers have been predestinated to inherit a Christ-like resurrection body (Eph.1:5/Rom.8:23; Rom.8:29; Php.3:21; 1Co.15:49; etc.).
So we will be as he was in the passage above: a physical body fully adapted to operate in both the physical and spiritual realms: it can be touched, it can eat, it has flesh and bones, and it can also walk through walls, appear and disappear, and change form (Mk.16:12), etc.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
The scriptures tell us that we believers have been predestinated to inherit a Christ-like resurrection body (Eph.1:5/Rom.8:23; Rom.8:29; Php.3:21; 1Co.15:49; etc.).
So we will be as he was in the passage above: a physical body fully adapted to operate in both the physical and spiritual realms: it can be touched, it can eat, it has flesh and bones, and it can also walk through walls, appear and disappear, and change form (Mk.16:12), etc.
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My advice to you is to read the thread through for understanding, not ammunition. Your verses are opening and shutting on some point I never raised.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
We've been through this before, though you may not recall.
Also, I wasn't necessarily just addressing you. There are many here.
Note that my post was a not in the "reply" format to the OP.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
The point has already been made that Paul uses both words (for spirit and for physical body) to describe the resurrected body.
Thus, we lay the foundation for “glorified body”.
peace to you
I am not going to get into a cut and paste war with you, John. Also, every time I disagree with you you take it personally. This gets tiresome .
Sticking a fork in this one. It's done.
Okay. In that case I am sorry. I will try to be more careful.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Although I agree with John on the doctrine, he does tend to go over-blown offended at slight pricks.
But he did provide you with scriptures.
Paul actually explained what he meant so that some heady translator couldn't rob his letter of its theology. Spiritual: not of this earth.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
No worries.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Not of this earth does not automatically = non physical.
The following is from a concurrent thread on pretty much the same subject. Because some here may not see that thread I will add it here:
In those verse, 1st Cor. 15:42-49, we read about the originators of the two classes, Adam and Christ. Adam “became a living being”. Christ, “a life-giving Spirit.” KJV unhelpfully provides “became“, which is not at all the point.
The following verses show a very important truth about our future natures.
Notice first the origins of these two persons:
“The first man is of the earth (ἐκ γῆς), earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven (ἐξ οὐρανοῦ) .”
This passage is a continuation of verse 40: somata epigeia and somata epourania now become “ek ges” and “ex ouranou”. This preposition (ek, ex – the forms only differ because of euphonics) shows origin. Adam came from the earth, from the dust. This brings to mind the very passage from Genesis. The “Second Adam” came from heaven. Note: In both cases, the origins determine the essence of who these two are – and (v. 48) the essence of their “followers”.
Verse 49 says that “we shall [or “let us”] bear the image of the heavenly man” (the Second Adam, from heaven).
Now here is the application:
1.We shall be like Christ. 1st John 3:2
2.And what is Christ like – according to this passage? He is like He was before He came to Earth. He is spiritual.
3.Was Christ fleshly before he came here to Earth? No. He was pure Spirit.
4.We – according to this passage – will also be like Him.
Spiritual bodies. Spirits of just men made perfect, as we are told in Hebrews.
We cannot have part Adam’s essence (“dust”) and part Christ’s, seeing that we could not then “enter into the Kingdom of God”. “Dust” has to do with “flesh and blood”, not spirit.
In those verse, 1st Cor. 15:42-49, we read about the originators of the two classes, Adam and Christ. Adam “became a living being”. Christ, “a life-giving Spirit.” KJV unhelpfully provides “became“, which is not at all the point.
The following verses show a very important truth about our future natures.
Notice first the origins of these two persons:
“The first man is of the earth (ἐκ γῆς), earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven (ἐξ οὐρανοῦ) .”
This passage is a continuation of verse 40: somata epigeia and somata epourania now become “ek ges” and “ex ouranou”. This preposition (ek, ex – the forms only differ because of euphonics) shows origin. Adam came from the earth, from the dust. This brings to mind the very passage from Genesis. The “Second Adam” came from heaven. Note: In both cases, the origins determine the essence of who these two are – and (v. 48) the essence of their “followers”.
Verse 49 says that “we shall [or “let us”] bear the image of the heavenly man” (the Second Adam, from heaven).
Now here is the application:
1.We shall be like Christ. 1st John 3:2
2.And what is Christ like – according to this passage? He is like He was before He came to Earth. He is spiritual.
3.Was Christ fleshly before he came here to Earth? No. He was pure Spirit.
4.We – according to this passage – will also be like Him.
Spiritual bodies. Spirits of just men made perfect, as we are told in Hebrews.
We cannot have part Adam’s essence (“dust”) and part Christ’s, seeing that we could not then “enter into the Kingdom of God”. “Dust” has to do with “flesh and blood”, not spirit.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Hence the reason for our flesh needing to be changed (not eradicated) and our blood being transformed into crystal clear water, like Christ's.
Physical does mean 'of this earth' though. That doesn't mean that spiritual could mean Martian soil. It means heavenly, as in the realm of heaven.
What you mean to say is, that it is substantial. I agree with that, and understand only that it is a substance quite apart from the substance that was planted.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Christ is our example. It's the same body that went into the sepulchre that came out, but changed.
But as long we agree that it will be substantial flesh, and not just pure spirit, good.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
My first problem with your theory is that there is no millennium. God cursed the Pharisees with a bare literal interpretation of the Kingdom and scripture. But Jesus taught the kingdom is spiritual and can only be seen by the born-again. This means all the kingdom prophecies are symbols of spiritual realities. If you can get that straight, the rest goes away allowing for time better spent on biblical themes.