It's not a mistake or poor choice of words when he has been repeatedly corrected. Then it is purposeful and intentional falsehood.
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None can come but those "given" - Jn. 6:36-40
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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It's not a mistake or poor choice of words when he has been repeatedly corrected. Then it is purposeful and intentional falsehood.
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Yes. You are right on that point:
I just know that the entire argument actually hinges on whether those "drawn" and those "given" are one and the same....
It's actually the whole crux of the issue.
So, I didn't take kindly to the word "EXPLICITLY" being used when obviously, the entire difference in that passage is an "IMPLICIT" one which you and I would disagree about...
You have an argument about what is "implied" by that passage (as does he)...and I disagree about those IMplications...
But, we just can't claim that it's "explicit". If it were..........then, actually, Calvinism would be provably true! :thumbs:
Perhaps, though.....he didn't mean to be "dishonest" as I said...just a little confused and not nuanced enough.
It is then, my error for calling him "liar".
That isn't fair.
Biblicist.........I think you chose a VERY poor word there, but, it isn't fair for me to have said that. I can't know your heart, and I should assume you meant only the best. I apologize.
You were mistaken to say "explicit"..........
but likely not intentionally dishonest.......
I was wrong to assume as much.
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Often....it is very easy for people to mistake what they BELIEVE to be the logical conclusions of their own premises to be fait-accompli truths..
Maybe he didn't mean to be dishonest...and Pinoy is right to call us out on assuming as much.
It's tricky, but, what I think happens is that most people don't really comprehend logic very well....
SOMETIMES one might string together a complete set of Biblical truths, and their premises are all correct, but the conclusions they come to simply don't actually follow. They THINK they do. But, they don't know any better.
Perhaps that is so with Biblicist:
You may notice that he throws the word "therefore" around like nothing and he's usually assuming WAY too much when he does....but, he doesn't know any better.
I don't think it is fair for us to accuse him of intentionally "lying" (at least given what Pinoy said)...
When to tell you the truth....he's simply so ingrained in his system that Biblicist actually BELIEVES that vs. 65 says that EXPLICITLY.
Does it??
No, and that's provable.
But does Calvinist thinking so warp one's mind that they become truly deranged such that they actually THINK it does????
Yes.
These few poor souls need treatment, (perhaps some fancy drugs) but, they can at least appeal to having not "intentionally" blatantly substituted what God's word says for what John Calvin said....
They don't do it on purpose.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I honestly hope so...
Then demonstrate it.
Inspector Javert
Active Member
NO........because "draw" doesn't mean "compel" and never does.
It is used as an inference from the OLD TESTAMENT
When a serpent was put on a pole and everyone was beckoned to look upon it for healing.........
But, many, alas, refused.
It may help you to seek out the origin of Christ's being "lifted-up" to understand it's context....
It comes from the OLD TESTAMENT.....not Calvin's writings....
and a whole LOT of people refused to, and therefore, they died. But, they were free to look upon it...
Here's the passage for context:
Jhn 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Jhn 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Refers to this:
Num 21:5
And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6
And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Num 21:7
Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
Num 21:8
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one (not some whom I elected) that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Num 21:9
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Alas, though....many died. (According to the text anyway).
Inspector Javert
Active Member
You are asking Skan to "demonstrate" what????
That he HOPES they will (because that's what he said)....
Or that they ACTUALLY will....(because he knows it isn't the case)...
What do you DEMAND he demonstrate for you???
That he dislikes the notion of people tortured perpetually in hell???
No, he doesn't like it.
Does he BELIEVE that most of humanity will escape it???
No, he doesn't.
Just what are you demanding he DEMONSTRATE for you???
How should he do it?
With trained chimpanzees?
Should he "demonstrate" it with geometric anomalies?
a logarithmic equation???
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
How do you demonstrate something you hope for?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Ok, I have to admit I really did laugh out loud at that one...:laugh:Will this do?
Sorry, couldn't find any chimpanzees.
Hope this will satisfy the Calvinists who demand a demonstration.
danged if I don't say I didn't as well....that was a good one...lol
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
My closing comment in that post -
- [FONT="]There is not ONE text in all of scripture in which the drawing of God necessitates coming to Christ - it merely allows for it.[/FONT]
- [FONT="]There is not ONE text that says that "Drawing of God" cannot happen until you are born again or that it is the act of causing you to be born again[/FONT]
- [FONT="]There is not ONE text in all of scripture that says that if the person who is drawn - does not come to Christ - then it is a sign of God's failure.[/FONT]
- [FONT="]There is not ONE text in all of scripture that says "all whom God draws Will COME to Christ".[/FONT]
[FONT="]So then 'no' there is no reason to suppose from scripture that "all drawn will come to Christ" since there is no such scripture that says such a thing.[/FONT]
[FONT="]All squares are rectangles.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Not all rectangles are squares.[/FONT]
[FONT="]All given were also drawn. But not all drawn are in the "given" group because the state of "Given" is a highly qualified state and no one is given by God to Christ in the complete absence of God's knowledge about the past, present or future.[/FONT]
[FONT="]in Christ,[/FONT]
[FONT="]Bob[/FONT]
In previous posts I took the time to demonstrate that Christ is obviously referrencing verse 44 in his explanatory response to verse 64 in verse 65.
I already pointed out the different wording "given" versus "draw" and yet both words are the response of the Father to "no man can come to me EXCEPT" showing that both terms are synonyms that provide the very same solution to the very same problem "no man can come to me EXCEPT" the Father "draw" him or "it is given" him of the Father.
That is, the inability to come to the Son is resolved by the Father either drawing "him" (v. 44) or "it given him" by the Father.
Both terms are attributed to the work of the Father, and both terms are descriptive of the same solution for inability to come to the Son.
I do not know of any interpretor's that argue John 6:64 is not a repeat of John 6:44 or that the word "given" in verse 65 obtains anything different than "draw" in verse 44. Hence, they are synonyms ascribing to the Father the very same work He does to resolve the inability of man to come to Christ.
So, with that in mind, it was proper to say "explicit" as they are synonymous terms that resolve the very same problem - "no man can come EXCEPT...."
Note in both verse 44 and verse 65 the problem "no man can come to me EXCEPT" is only resolved or made possible by what the Father does. In both cases it is the very same problem.
The words "therefore I said unto you"would be meaningless if the solution provided in verse 6:65 was different than provided in verse 44. If that were case then he should not have said "therefore I said unto you" but only "No man can come unto me except it were given to him by the Father." However, the introductory words "Therefore I said unto you" demand that He is merely repeating what he previously said but because he is directly referring to the problem just stated "believe not" in verse 64 which is again the stated problem in verse 65 "no man can come to me" or coming to Christ in faith" this called for a change from "draw" to "it given" or the ability to beleive is given as the problem of unbelief is what He is addressing in both verse 64 and 65.
Some want to avoid this obvious conclusion, and so they argue that "it" in verse 65 refers to PHYSICALLY hearing the "words of life" and being taught the gospel, and thus having heard and learned the gospel from Christ in verse 63.
However, that interpretation has many problems.
1. First, they are recognized by Christ as "his" disciples and none are recognized as "his" disciples except those who have EXTERNALY heard, been taught and learned the gospel and that is manifested by public profession in baptism. Hence, this EXTERNAL process does not make believers in Christ and is not what the Father must give so that man can come to Christ in faith.
2. They "believed not" but that was their state known to Christ "from the beginning" of their profession as disicples - v. 64.
3. To say "therefore I said unto you no man can come except" as explanatory for that contined state of unbelief makes absolutely no sense if the definition of "draw...taught....heard...and learned....it given" is EXTERNAL and PHYSICAL in nature as they did receive all that and yet remained in "unbelief."
convicted1
Guest
Hummmmm, seems like we have two who love to quote their own posts more than they do the ones they oppose....
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Given is used in two different contexts in John 6.
A. there are those "given to Christ" by the Father. (A highly qualified list that includes seeing, believing, learning, coming to Christ etc).
vs 39
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
There is no text that says "The Father has given ALL mankind To CHRIST".
B. Then There is that which the Father "gives the lost" person. It is the case of the lost person to whom it is "Given" to come to Christ by the Father. "All Drawn" can come to Christ according to vs 44.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
But not all DO come that are drawn. To get the "all drawn DO come to Christ" we need to find a Calvinist someplace and quote him/her
It is possible that in the Father's drawing of that person (and He draws ALL mankind) He is said to have "given that person" the ability to come to Christ. Whether that is a qualified form (that takes into account foreknowledge) or that is an unqualified form that is equal to the "Drawing of ALL mankind" is yet to be stated.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
And of course God draws "ALL MANKIND unto Him" John 12:32.
=========================
The OP effort so far appears to be in masking the difference between that which the Father has "Given to Christ" and that which the Father "Gives to the Lost" through the "Drawing of all mankind unto Him".
The 'Drawing of all mankind to him" is unqualified. That which the Father "has given to Christ" is highly qualified via foreknowledge.
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My point exactly! When John 17:2 and John 6:37-39 are considered together as they both contain the very same "given" people to Christ by the Father, then it will be clearly seen that they are "given" by the Father FOR THE PURPOSE that they "SHALL" come to Christ so that Christ can give "eternal life TO AS MANY AS GIVEN HIM" by the Father.
Hence, this is an elect people BEFORE THE INCARNATION (v. 38) given to Christ to come to Christ for eternal life.
You are intentionally ignoring the immediate context which shows that John 6:37-40 is given as an EXPLANATORY CONTRAST to the response of those persons and their reactions described in verse 36.
1. Those in verse 36 both saw and believed not and thus did not come to Christ by faith (v. 35).
2. The reason is they had not been given by the Father to come to Christ BECAUSE "ALL" the Father gives "shall come" to Christ and they saw and did not come.
3. ALL those given shall not only come to Christ(v. 37) but none will be lost (v. 39a) AND they shall be raised up to life eternal (v. 39b).
4. Those in verse 40 come from among this same "ALL" in verses 37-39 whereas those in verse 36 are not among this same "ALL" in verses 37-39 as their failure to come proves.
5. He is still addressing those in verse 36 when he continues to speak in verses 41-46. They were not "of all" given by the Father and they are not drawn by the Father and the proof is that they do not come to the Son.
6. The proof that your interpretation of John 6:44-45 is wrong is that even those who EXTERNALLY hear the gospel, taught and learned the gospel and profess the gospel in baptism ("disciples") can still remain in "unbelief" right "from the beginning" of their profession which demands John 6:44-45 is not fulfiled by EXTERNAL hearing, teaching, learning or professing.
Nowhere in John 6 does it say those drawn "can come" but it only says denies those not drawn "can come."
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Nowhere does John 6 say this - nowhere! Indeed, John 6:64-65 denies that anyone really ever does come to Christ in faith that are drawn by the way you interpert John 6:44-45 - they remain in unbelief "from the beginning" of their false profession.
convicted1
Guest
Will this do?
Sorry, couldn't find any chimpanzees.
Hope this will satisfy the Calvinists who demand a demonstration.
Hey, it's the 3 Amigos, Bros. Winman, Skan, and IJ. They're available for birthdays, bar mitzvahs, bachelorette parties, and all church socials.
I don't know who the crying baby is. Maybe Bro. Bob Ryan?
LOL...j/k.
It is obvious that Biblicist is trying to prove Irresistible Grace with John 6:44 but it is not working. There is no scripture that supports that all who are drawn shall come. There is much scripture that shows persons who are called and drawn do not come, such as Matthew 22;
Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
It is clear in this passage that Jesus is teaching that God calls many men to come to the wedding of his son, but men refuse to come. Again he sends his servants to call men to the wedding and again they make light of it and make excuse not to come.
That God was completely sincere is shown by his anger because these persons would not come when he called them, and so destroyed their city.
There are many other examples that show God sincerely calls and entices or draws men to come to him, but they refuse to come.
Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
Again, Jesus shows that God sincerely calls to men and tries to draw them, comparing his enticements to children playing music in the streets and calling for their fellows to dance.
And finally Jesus compares himself to a mother hen who attempts to gather her chicks under her wings and they would not come!
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
It is clearly obvious that God calls and entices men to come to him, but many refuse. Irresistible Grace is false doctrine that is easily refuted by much scripture as any honest person can see.
Biblicist attempts to wrest scripture to prove a false doctrine refuted by much scripture.
Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
It is clear in this passage that Jesus is teaching that God calls many men to come to the wedding of his son, but men refuse to come. Again he sends his servants to call men to the wedding and again they make light of it and make excuse not to come.
That God was completely sincere is shown by his anger because these persons would not come when he called them, and so destroyed their city.
There are many other examples that show God sincerely calls and entices or draws men to come to him, but they refuse to come.
Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
Again, Jesus shows that God sincerely calls to men and tries to draw them, comparing his enticements to children playing music in the streets and calling for their fellows to dance.
And finally Jesus compares himself to a mother hen who attempts to gather her chicks under her wings and they would not come!
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
It is clearly obvious that God calls and entices men to come to him, but many refuse. Irresistible Grace is false doctrine that is easily refuted by much scripture as any honest person can see.
Biblicist attempts to wrest scripture to prove a false doctrine refuted by much scripture.
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