North Carolina Council of Churches Pits 2nd Commandment vs. 2nd Amendment

[1689Dave]

Sue me for what ? LOL. This isn’t England, yet.

Is it slander to call someone a liar without proof?

slan·der
ˈslandər/
noun
LAW

1. 1.
   the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.
   "he is suing the TV network for slander"

 

[Bro. Curtis]

LOL. I think I’m safe to say I am in zero danger from you.

 

[1689Dave]

LOL. I think I’m safe to say I am in zero danger from you.

I'm glad you do not feel threatened by me. We are to be harmless as doves.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Yup. Not wolves in sheeps clothing.

 

[I Love An Atheist]

Remember, Paul fell among thieves and countrymen. Many times the Jews, not Romans who were in control of the government, beat him leaving him for dead. If I could justify Christian violence from the NT, I would probably think in those terms, and try to interpret scripture that way too. But I cannot justify violence in self defence if if I love my enemies.

Did Jesus love his enemies while he was whipping them in the temple? If you denied that He did, you would be calling Him a liar. You have no choice but to expand your definition of what love can mean to include a component of justice within it. Otherwise you are saying Jesus is a liar or is self-contradictory.

Moving back to my previous argument. You shifted the grounds of consideration once again. The grounds of consideration were these, and I will spell them out clearly:

Dying for the faith under persecution signals and vivifies messages. Don't fear most those who can harm your body, but He Who is in charge of your soul. Don't value most your material existence, but value more your eternal life.

Does dying as a victim of a random criminal signal and vivify the same messages?

 

[I Love An Atheist]

God reserved that for the Civil Magistrate. He tells us to love our enemies.

What if the Civil Magistrate passes or upholds a law allowing self-defense?

 

[I Love An Atheist]

Then why did Jesus say all the other things he said about non violence, turning the other cheek, not rendering evil for evil, etc., etc?

Jesus communicated through hyperbole in the Sermon on the Mount. But a slap to the cheek signifies an insult. And notice what Jesus did not say. He did not say, if a criminal cuts your right cheek with a knife, turn your left cheek so that one may also be cut. That would be a grotesque perversion. Is this what you want to make out of it?

Why can you not point to one single Christian using violence in self defence in the NT?

Why does there need to be an example of this in the NT? Are you implying that the laws God gave people in the OT were immoral?

Further, are you implying that if the NT does not give us an explicit instruction or example of any given thing, we are to assume Jesus would frown upon it?

 

[I Love An Atheist]

For me it takes more courage to face an enemy unarmed. But can you look back on your life where you suffered abuse and wrong without defending yourself? And committed your defence to the Lord? And later saw the outcome of those who came against you?

I think the Lord has been training me in this path for some time. And honestly, I shudder when look back on how things turned out for my enemies after I refused to defend myself, and placed my defence in the Lord's hands. I have some stories if a thread ever develops for sharing testimonies of providence.

How do you know God is not working through you to save an innocent bystander, or through a bystander to save you or a loved one? When I have prayed, people have helped. It makes me think God works through people. God doesn't need to directly do everything Himself.

When my son almost drowned in Resurrection Creek in Alaska, immediately after I prayed, a man pulled him out.

What would you have thought the man should do? Pull him out, or pray too?

 

[I Love An Atheist]

Jesus left us an example to follow.

“For to this you were called, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving an example for you to follow in his steps. He committed no sin nor was deceit found in his mouth.When he was maligned, he did not answer back; when he suffered, he threatened no retaliation, but committed himself to God who judges justly.” (1 Peter 2:21–23) (NET)

Plus, there is not one instance of any NT believer defending themselves violently.

This is coming awfully close to telling every Christian to behave just as certain so-called ministers of God tell abused wives to behave. I have read of one so-called minister instructing wives that they need to be willing to suffer every bit as much at the hands of their husband as Christ suffered when He was crucified.

Would you agree or disagree with this type of advice to a battered Christian wife?

 

[1689Dave]

Would you agree or disagree with this type of advice to a battered Christian wife?

I would not tell a wife to remain in an abusive marriage. And abusive husband is an unbeliever or he would not be abusive. Only, if she separates (divorces) to remain single until he dies.

 

[1689Dave]

What would you have thought the man should do? Pull him out, or pray too?

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (KJV 1900)

We always do what God would have us to do whether we pray or not.

 

[I Love An Atheist]

I would not tell a wife to remain in an abusive marriage. And abusive husband is an unbeliever or he would not be abusive. Only, if she separates (divorces) to remain single until he dies.

But you would tell the Church, the Bride of Christ for whom Christ died on the cross, that she is called to be a battered wife at the hands of the world, or else Christ will divorce her.

Would you divorce your wife if she learned karate to defend herself from attacks or if she sought any type of legal justice after being beat up, raped or robbed?

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus communicated through hyperbole in the Sermon on the Mount. But a slap to the cheek signifies an insult. And notice what Jesus did not say. He did not say, if a criminal cuts your right cheek with a knife, turn your left cheek so that one may also be cut. That would be a grotesque perversion. Is this what you want to make out of it?

Why did Jesus tell Peter (us) to put away the sword when Peter used it for self defense?

Why does there need to be an example of this in the NT? Are you implying that the laws God gave people in the OT were immoral?

They were temporary and not for us today. Only if the NT imports any of them do they remain. Nothing about violence remains.

Further, are you implying that if the NT does not give us an explicit instruction or example of any given thing, we are to assume Jesus would frown upon it?

“But Nadab and Abihu died when they offered strange fire before the Lord.” (Numbers 26:61) (NET)

 

[InTheLight]

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (KJV 1900)

We always do what God would have us to do whether we pray or not.

The Apostle Paul would disagree. See Romans 7:19-20.

 

[1689Dave]

The Apostle Paul would disagree. See Romans 7:19-20.

“In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” (Ephesians 1:11) (KJV 1900)

 

[1689Dave]

What if the Civil Magistrate passes or upholds a law allowing self-defense?

Does Jesus do this?

 

[1689Dave]

Yup. Not wolves in sheeps clothing.

I like your icon picture. Is that a wolf?

 

[1689Dave]

But you would tell the Church, the Bride of Christ for whom Christ died on the cross, that she is called to be a battered wife at the hands of the world, or else Christ will divorce her.

Would you divorce your wife if she learned karate to defend herself from attacks or if she sought any type of legal justice after being beat up, raped or robbed?

Normally, in the NT the Christians ran and hid rather that use violence to defend themselves.

 

[I Love An Atheist]

Why did Jesus tell Peter (us) to put away the sword when Peter used it for self defense?

It was not for Peter's self defense, and you know it. It would have been a case of Peter fighting the state on behalf of Jesus and doing so to prevent Jesus' fulfillment of his mission in the world. Others have already told you this, including Revmitchell almost right off the bat. But nobody should have to tell you.

For shame if you can't make this simple deduction, yet you have adamant opinions about the topic, and don't listen to others.

“But Nadab and Abihu died when they offered strange fire before the Lord.” (Numbers 26:61) (NET)

Now you are quoting from an OT passage? All this time you have been insisting upon only NT passages. Does this indicate you have changed your mind about the OT in a couple of days' time?

 

[I Love An Atheist]

Normally, in the NT the Christians ran and hid rather that use violence to defend themselves.

No, they stood and died. They did not run and hide. That makes a mockery of the NT to say that Christians ran and hid, in those terms, as a blanket statement. That is a flippant and snide remark.