I Love An Atheist
Active Member
Was Jesus a Civil Magistrate?
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North Carolina Council of Churches Pits 2nd Commandment vs. 2nd Amendment
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Was Jesus a Civil Magistrate?
I Love An Atheist
Active Member
If you really believe this, then why do you bother to persuade anybody of anything?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Those who want to see justification for violence always find a way. But scripture denounces it.
How can we add to God's word with impunity?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
No, but neither are Christians in the NT.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
What did Jesus tell them to do when the siege of Jerusalem took place? What did they do in response? They ran and hid at Pella. Also, they fled at the stoning of Stephen. Paul also may times in Acts.
I Love An Atheist
Active Member
Scripture denounces violence, or unjust and lawless violence?
I didn't do anything of the kind. I'll repeat my observation I made before this non sequitur. I observed that you were suddenly quoting from the Old Testament, after spending a whole thread insisting upon only New Testament examples.
And I'll repeat my question: in the space of this thread, did you change your mind about the OT?
I Love An Atheist
Active Member
Are you going to tell me now that Christians are forbidden by the NT to work for the government?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Look at the trouble is causes. We are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers, especially under oath.
I Love An Atheist
Active Member
Most of us call that working for a living. Are you saying we should not do that, either, then?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
We are not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For me it meant marrying a Christian wife, no military service, no membership in labor unions, or entanglements with unbelievers. Which meant giving up my career and skills as a young Christian, and starting over from scratch working dead end part time minimum wage jobs. So this is not "armchair" discipleship speaking.
In Romans 7 Paul says he does evil things even though he wants to do good.
Your reply quotes a verse that God works all things according to the counsel of his own will.
Therefore I conclude that in your theology God causes Christians to do evil things.
I Love An Atheist
Active Member
Okay, but you made a blanket statement that Christians always ran and hid in the NT. There are examples of them fleeing persecution, yes. But there are even more examples of them courageously risking even more persecution to spread the Word, as well as being willing to sacrifice their lives rather than deny Christ.
Jesus Himself did not run and hide. He went deliberately to the cross.
The purpose of all of this was to fight spiritual war, not to lose earthly battles. It is an important distinction.
Losing in this life is not the point. Winning eternal life in the next life, for ourselves and others, is the point.
It is not automatically profitable in the next life to be a victim in this life. Intention and effect matter.
I Love An Atheist
Active Member
I respect your choices, and I hope you also respect the choices of other believers.
God made it easy for me as a mother who is not working to follow His Word, but I could not do what I do without a husband who has to work in a lying corporate environment. Although he is not a believer, he is the most compulsively honest person I have ever met in my life except maybe for one other person. He is honest in this corporate environment, although he has to hold back speaking up on his own behalf when unfairly criticized during executive presentations.
When I pray for him before the presentations, I pray that he will be able to speak the truth without being offensive, and that the CEO will be able to see the truth. When I neglect to pray, it goes badly. When I pray, it gets interesting, because he says something and is astonished that they did not know that before and insists he's told them many times, but they don't care.
God in His Graciousness has not put my family to an overly severe test, though tested we have been. Christ said that all those who have heavy burdens can put their burdens down and take up His yoke, for it is light.
I would fail and be damned if I did not gradually grow as a Christian and have help from above figuring this out as I go along.
Either that or I could go live with the Amish people, if they would take me.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
There is no one more courageous than a Christian who gives their life upholding Christ's teaching. But many times just running worked in Acts. And I think we should always remove ourselves from violence rather than becoming a victim. But then too, if I'm cornered, I know dying for Christ is better than a million years of life on earth. And also far better than wasting away with the diseases that claim so many. But knowing you are willing to die for Christ and overcoming the fear of death is priceless.
I Love An Atheist
Active Member
I agree.
But what does it mean to always protect people you love?
1 Corinthians 13 New International Version (NIV)
13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
My wife and I agree that if non violence means death, we cannot lose. We go to heaven immediately. But we aren't above running, or using non violent means to deal with aggressors. Think of all the ways you can thwart these kinds of situations non violently.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
God uses evil to perfect us. Do you think Peter's denial of Jesus and his bitter remorse had anything to do with his impact on the early Church. Why do we ask God not to lead us into evil if he cannot do so?
So when Jesus said to Peter, "before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times", this was:
1. A prophecy
2. God compelling Peter to deny Christ
Which was it?
I Love An Atheist
Active Member
My husband thwarted violence by three oil workers seeing his Glock on his kitchen table in his apartment, just a couple weeks after arriving in Alaska for the first time in his life. They were angry because he had thrown all their boxes out of his garage so he could park his truck in it. He had thought the landlord had put the boxes in there. He had no place to park his truck without blocking somebody else, other than his garage. He had already had a string of ridiculous problems with the landlord.
The three men confronted him and threatened him in the hall while his door was open. When he took his gun out and put it on the table, while explaining to them the misunderstanding, they laughed. He offered them beers, and they stood in the doorway drinking beers and talking to him for a while. But they kept looking at the gun, and they did not come in and sit down.
Without his having been armed, they would have jumped him. Because he was armed, he deterred their violence long enough to get them to back off and listen to them, and he had no further problems with his new neighbors from that point forward.
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