Not an either or atonement.

[37818]

Already addressed this...

Which understanding is simpler? I think mine is. God paid for our sins before we believed, Romans 5:8. Before one believes there is no difference between the elect and non-elect. That difference is with God and not our causing.

 

[Dave G]

The text says of the believers, "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Christ died for said believers before they believed.

I agree, and to me it very clearly says that He did.

How is the reader to know it would excluded any sinner?

Because the rest of the letter tells us in Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 10 and Romans 11, the full extent of how and why the believers, believed.
Add to this Acts of the Apostles 2:39, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, John 6:37-65, John 10:26-29, and many other places where the Lord clarifies and defines who believes and why they believe...

When others do not.

There is nothing anywhere in the New Testament which teaches particular redemption must excluded the general redemption.

Romans 8:28-30
Romans 9:6-24
Ephesians 1
Ephesians 2
John 6.
John 10.
Matthew 1:21.
Isaiah 53:8.

...and many others.

The epistles ( as well as Christ's words in places like John 10:11-15 and the angel Gabriel's words to Mary in Matthew 1:21 ) clarify who Christ died for, why he died and rose again, and what His atonement accomplished for them.

 

[Reformed1689]

Which understanding is simpler? I think mine is. God paid for our sins before we believed, Romans 5:8. Before one believes there is no difference between the elect and non-elect. That difference is with God and not our causing.

The first part I agree with. But there is a MAJOR difference before salvation between the elect and non-elect. Their election. I cannot tell someone who is not saved that Christ paid for their sins because I do not know that to be true.

 

[Dave G]

God paid for our sins before we believed, Romans 5:8.

I agree.
God the Father sent the Son to pay for the elect's ( those who would later believe through the foolishness of preaching ) sins before they believed ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11, John 10:15, 1 Peter 1:20 ).

Before one believes there is no difference between the elect and non-elect.

There is to the Lord, but not to us as men:

To Him,
There are vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory, and vessels of wrath fitted to destruction ( Romans 9:22-24 ).
God's children, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ), and the devil's children reserved to everlasting punishment.

As the Scripture tells us,
The Lord only calls to Himself, justifies and glorifies those that He has foreknown, and predestinated conformed to the image of His Son ( Romans 8:29-30 ).

That difference is with God and not our causing.

Amen.

 

[37818]

Romans 8:28-30
Romans 9:6-24
Ephesians 1
Ephesians 2
John 6.
John 10.
Matthew 1:21.
Isaiah 53:8.

Many others.

How does any of those passages exclude a general redemption? Understand particular redemption is the particular redemption. How does it disallow the general redemption of those who do not become part of the particular redemption such as Judas, Luke 22:20-21? Or false teachers, 2 Peter 2:1? [Jude 1:4.]

 

[37818]

I agree.
God the Father sent the Son to pay for the elect's ( those who would later believe through the foolishness of preaching ) sins before they believed ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11, John 10:15, 1 Peter 1:20 ).

There is to the Lord, but not to us as men:

Vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory, and vessels of wrath fitted to destruction ( Romans 9:22-24 ).
God's children, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ), and the devil's children reserved to everlasting punishment.

Does not change 1 John 2:2, 1 John 5:19 etc.

 

[37818]

The first part I agree with. But there is a MAJOR difference before salvation between the elect and non-elect. Their election. I cannot tell someone who is not saved that Christ paid for their sins because I do not know that to be true.

I know it to be true. Luke 22:20-21 etc.

 

[Reformed1689]

I know it to be true. Luke 22:20-21 etc.

He paid for the sins of the non-elect? That verse does not state that at all.

 

[37818]

He paid for the sins of the non-elect? That verse does not state that at all.

The didactic of the text Luke 22:20-21 does not exclude Judas.

 

[Reformed1689]

The didactic of the text Luke 22:20-21 does not exclude Judas.

You have to square that with the rest of Scripture. It does not fly.

 

[37818]

You have to square that with the rest of Scripture. It does not fly.

Ok. who bought the false teachers Peter refers to in 2 Peter 2:1, ". . . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . "? My cross refer is Jude 1:4, ". . . For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ."

 

[Dave G]

How does any of those passages exclude a general redemption? Understand particular redemption is the particular redemption. How does it disallow the general redemption of those who do not become part of the particular redemption such as Judas, Luke 22:20-21? Or false teachers, 2 Peter 2:1? [Jude 1:4.]

This has been answered many times, my friend.
You have the Bible, and it is your privilege to study it for yourself.

All I can tell you is how I understand it and why.

Ok. who bought the false teachers Peter refers to in 2 Peter 2:1, ". . . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . ."

I see that saying that the Lord bought the people, not the false teachers.
However, for a very long time I did see it the other way around.

 

[Reformed1689]

Ok. who bought the false teachers Peter refers to in 2 Peter 2:1, ". . . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . "? My cross refer is Jude 1:4, ". . . For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ."

2:1 Peter describes the false teachers. secretly. They will subvert the truth by surreptitiously bringing destructive heresies into the church. These heresies will be contrary to what Christ and the apostles laid down as foundational doctrines (cf. Eph. 2:20–22), resulting in spiritual ruin rather than life. The false teachers will even deny the truth about the Master (Jesus Christ) who bought them. Peter apparently uses the language of redemption (“bought them”) here in the same way that he describes the counterfeit “salvation” of the false teachers at the end of ch. 2: that is, they claimed to be “redeemed” and “saved” because they were part of the church, but their apostasy showed that they were not truly believers. Another interpretation is that Christ’s death paid the penalty for their sins (“bought them”) but God did not apply this payment to them because they rejected Christ.
Crossway Bibles, The ESV Study Bible (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2008), 2420.

 

[37818]

This has been answered many times, my friend.

Arguements made yes. But no simple proofs.

I see that saying that the Lord bought the people, not the false teachers.

2 Peter 2:1, ". . . denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

 

[37818]

2:1 Peter describes the false teachers. secretly. They will subvert the truth by surreptitiously bringing destructive heresies into the church. These heresies will be contrary to what Christ and the apostles laid down as foundational doctrines (cf. Eph. 2:20–22), resulting in spiritual ruin rather than life. The false teachers will even deny the truth about the Master (Jesus Christ) who bought them. Peter apparently uses the language of redemption (“bought them”) here in the same way that he describes the counterfeit “salvation” of the false teachers at the end of ch. 2: that is, they claimed to be “redeemed” and “saved” because they were part of the church, but their apostasy showed that they were not truly believers. Another interpretation is that Christ’s death paid the penalty for their sins (“bought them”) but God did not apply this payment to them because they rejected Christ.
Crossway Bibles, The ESV Study Bible (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2008), 2420.

Makes no sense to my understanding. I would not wast my money on that study Bible.

 

[Reformed1689]

Makes no sense to my understanding. I would not wast my money on that study Bible.

Your understanding is wrong. Jesus said he laid his life down for the SHEEP. Not for all.

 

[37818]

Your understanding is wrong. Jesus said he laid his life down for the SHEEP. Not for all.

That Jesus laid down His life for His sheep is not being denied by the general redemption, the general redemption which you deny.

 

[Dave G]

2 Peter 2:1, ". . . denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

Exactly.
False teachers may go so far as to deny the Lord that bought the people, and bring upon themselves ( the false teachers ) swift destruction.
Also, see this:

" the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 but chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous [are they], selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots [they are] and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam [the son] of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;" ( 2 Peter 2:9-15 ).

Here's how I understand the above:

9) The Lord knows how to deliver the godly ( His elect made so by His power and by the blood of His Son ) out of trials, and to reserve the unjust ( those who do not believe and are not His elect from before the foundation of the world ) to the day of judgement to be punished.
10) Speaking of the false teachers in verse 1...God is reserving the unjust, especially them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise government.
They are presumptuous, self-willed ( hard-headed ), and not afraid to speak evil of public officials.
11) Comparatively, angels, which are greater in power and might then us mere men, do not bring railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12) These false teachers, as the natural brute beasts to God that they are, were made by Him to be taken and destroyed.
They speak evil of the things that they do not understand, and they shall utterly perish in their own corruption.


The rest describes the qualities of false teachers... who they are, what they do and where they come from.

So, with all that in mind, how is it that the Lord Jesus Christ, who only saves those whom the Father has given Him ( John 17:2 ) and who gave His life for the sheep ( John 10:11-15 ), also made it possible for false teachers who were specifically made to be taken and destroyed, to be saved and to be forgiven of their sins through His blood?

I see that He did not, as there cannot be a general atonement for those whom the Lord specifically made to be taken and destroyed.

Therefore,
I conclude that God only casts into Hell ( and reserves for everlasting punishment ) those that His Son did not atone for, and who hate Him and His Son.
Those that He has afore prepared unto glory ( Romans 9:22-23 ) are those Christ died for, and it was a sure and dedicated work for them and them alone.

 

[Reformed1689]

That Jesus laid down His life for His sheep is not being denied by the general redemption, the general redemption which you deny.

The general redemption that is not spoken of in Scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

If General Redemption were true (it isn't) then Jesus was not powerful enough to save. His sacrifice was not enough.