Not attending all services

[Pastor Larry]

if all I have to do to complete God's will for my life is sit in church 4 hours a week, I'm working to hard!

If all one is doing is sitting in services for 4 hours a week, then they are not doing enough.

The point of my question was teh basis on which we arbitrarily (apparently) assign something are "requirements" and others not.

Church is the body of Christ fellowshipping and meeting together.

I agree ... and if they are meeting and you aren't there (whether Sunday night, Wednesday, Thursday or whatever), then how is that good?

That can be done Pastor Larry's way,

I am curious as to what you think my way is.

I am a big believer that church is about purposes (and I believed that before Warren's book came out). We do things to accomplish purposes. We have Sunday night here because I believe that God commands the church to worship corporately and preach to believers. We have Wednesday night because I believe God commands the church to learn doctrine and fellowship together. If we did not have a Sunday night service, or if a believer doesn't come on Sunday night, he is not fulfilling God's expectation of corporate worship. I am not saying everyone needs to do it "my way" ... I don't even know what Paul thinks that is. I do believe every church needs to be doing what the NT says to do.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I see your way as expecting every member to attend every service the church offer unless "providentially hindered". Providentially hindered meaning, someone died on the way to church, or a baby about to be born. Extreme circumstances that have to be dealt with then and can't be put off till after church.

Now that may work for your group of church members, but it doesn't work for everyone.

Who/where have we gotten the idea that worships must/can only happen, in the church building at the proper time set?

It is a manmade idea. God doesn't command us anywhere, to attend services at set times. Jews were supposed to attend on the Sabbath. Nothing said about the rest of the week, Wednesday wasn't mentioned.

How, where, when and for what length of time, is all left up to us as individuals who are led by the Holy Spirit. Some of us individuals are led to do things differently than the majority. Different doesn't mean wrong and we shouldn't be gossiped about.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
If all one is doing is sitting in services for 4 hours a week, then they are not doing enough.

Agreed. The simple act of sitting in services results in 0 hours of worship.

We should have 24x7 hours of worship a week and several of those hours may happen inside a church building or within the context of a "church program".

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Pastor_Bob:


Too many people "lay out of church" for no other reason than for convenience sake. Too many people have the gross misconception that "once a week is all I need" when it comes to church.

My first church was a church that was near death. It had ten people left who met so often that they did not even know their neighbors. They had been taught that if they did not meet very often that it was not good. They regularly complained about their busyness. Were they ever surprised when I shut down almost everything. When I began to ask them about their neighbors few could tell me much. We ended up having a Sunday morning service and prayer meeting before Sunday School. During the week I started a Bible study for them. Eventually everyone of those original ten were doing some kind of outreach ministry in the community. Most of them were leading Bible studies.

Nearly 100% of them were in church, prayer meeting and Sunday School each Sunday.

Christianity is not building centered but Christ centered.

 

[Pastor Larry]

God doesn't command us anywhere, to attend services at set times. ... How, where, when and for what length of time, is all left up to us as individuals who are led by the Holy Spirit.

I don't recall any place where God left this up to the individual. In Scripture, he said don't forsake the assembling of yourselves together.

Some of us individuals are led to do things differently than the majority. Different doesn't mean wrong and we shouldn't be gossiped about.

Let by whom? And why are you worried about gossip? If you are doing right, why care what people say?

You are correct about providential hindering. Give me a good biblical reason for some other stance. Why wouldn't you give first priority to the church? I don't understand the devaluation of the church.

 

[HappyG]

Pastor Larry,

You are definitely missing my point.

I am not arguing against making church a priority or making it the all consuming goal of your life. Church should be all consuming and is in effect a 24x7 endeavor.

I am arguing that church as you are defining it is ineffective and impractical. There are better ways and to define someone as spiritual because they put on a shirt and tie and are good listeners for 4 hours a week is silly.

If you don't want to spend 15 hours with your family a week and by that I am including meal times and bed times and devotional life. YOu don't have too. Or if you don't want to get out and enjoy the outdoors and play some ball or workout for 8 hours or whatever that is fine. Don't get hung up on the numbers.

But those activities whatever they are not non-spiritual and the 4 hours you spend at church on Sunday PM and Wednesday PM the spiritual hours. It is all "church." Church is not a building we go to. It is people who are. And the times we gather for worship, fellowship, and Bible Study, is not the game. It is the practice for the game, which is the real world that we enter everyday.

YOu can teach and preach how you like, though. Don't let me stop ya. I just feel sorry for people who work "real" jobs that aren't classified as "spiritual" who are told that the majority of what they do doesn't really matter.

I have found people feel real empowered in their spiritual lives when they realize that what they do from 9-2-5 is a God-blessed spiritual endeavor of great importance. It is ever bit as spiritual and important as what I might do as a "professional preacher."

Actually, I am both. A preacher who by choice is an executive with a technology company. I have glimpse into both worlds and I speak the truth on this.

But you can reject it if you want too.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

I cannot speak for Pastor Larry, though I believe that he and I are in agreement (for a change ) on this issue.

I am not asserting that attending church 3 times a week is an indication of one's spirituality. I am not asserting that missing the Sunday PM service is an indication of backsliding.

What I am asserting is that the Bible teaches that believers are to meet together for the express purpose of worshipping God, exhorting one another, and growing in the grace and knowledge of God.

Can this be done at home? Some of it may be, but certainly not all. It is very difficult to encourage and exhort your brothers and sisters in the Lord if you are not meeting with them.

Consider this thought:
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. (KJV)

Have you ever heard someone say, "I can meet God at the lake?" That’s true, but the Bible doesn’t say here that Jesus was seen walking in the midst of the fish and the boats down at the lake.

Some say, "I can meet God at home in front of my TV." Maybe if you turn it off might be able to meet God. The Bible doesn’t say that Jesus was walking in the midst of the TV stations.

John says that Jesus was seen walking in the midst of the churches. It is very plain and very clear. God is speaking to these churches. Verse 20 of chapter one tells us that these candlesticks are the seven churches. Where was Jesus seen walking? In the midst of the seven candlesticks.
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man…

Jesus is walking in the midst of these churches, and then He says, "Say to the angel of the church of Ephesus. I’ve got a message for that church. Then, I’ve a message for the church of Smyrna," and a message for each of the seven churches He lists here.

If you went back to John 20, that first Sunday evening after His resurrection, Jesus revealed Himself to those disciples gathered there that night in a way that He did not reveal Himself to any one else that night. They were the ones that saw Him, and knew Him, and understood what had happened to Him. Throughout the Book of Acts, God did things in the presence of those gathered together to worship Him that He did not do at other times.

Yes, it is true that you can meet God at home and yes, you should read the Bible and pray individually and as a family and yet, it is also true that when you meet with the church, God’s people, you will meet Jesus in a way that you would never know Him otherwise. You will see Him in a glorified manner that you could never see Him otherwise. You and your children are going to know Him in a way that you could not know Him a part from the church.

 

[Gershom]

Pastor Bob posted:
It is very difficult to encourage and exhort your brothers and sisters in the Lord if you are not meeting with them.

Meeting is not the question. The question is about attending EVERY service.

 

[Paul33]

If a hundred people meet on Sunday night at the church, have they fulfilled the biblical command?

If ten bible study groups of ten people each meet throughout the community in homes, have they fufilled the biblical command?

It's the same thing! But which one is your friend or neighbor likely to attend?

 

[dianetavegia]

Paul33, I would suggest the neighbors would be more likely to attend a regular church service so as not to feel 'put on the spot' in small groups. Our church has done cottage services for special Sundays such as Super Bowl and each host family invites their neighbors and friends. They've been well attended, but only by church members!

 

[menageriekeeper]

quote:
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God doesn't command us anywhere, to attend services at set times. ... How, where, when and for what length of time, is all left up to us as individuals who are led by the Holy Spirit.
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I don't recall any place where God left this up to the individual. In Scripture, he said don't forsake the assembling of yourselves together.

You know Pastor Larry, you can quote that scripture all you want, but you still can't make it say "you must attend every service that your church provides".

Now if you were talking to my husband, you'd have a point. He actively doesn't go to church. He used to actively discourage me from taking the kids and going. We won't go into his reasons in order to stay on topic. However, he fits the deinition of one who forsakes the gathering of God's people.

As for myself, it would be wonderful if I had the time, energy and lack of responsibility to attend church every service. But, let me consider what I'd have to give up in order for that to happen. Well, first my children, cause one of the three is going to be sick nearly 3/4 of the time, especially in the winter. Knocks out most Wednesday nights, cause husband doesn't get home in time to watch them for Wednesday church and sick kids don't take care of themselves. But I forget, children are an heritage from the Lord, now how do we solve that contridiction? Why would God give me children he knows are going to get sick if he also requires me to be in every service the church offers?

I'm not going any further with this as it is ridiculous. You say where did God leave this up to the individual. I say where did God leave this up to YOU to tell everyone that they must attend church as you have prescribed.

Gossip doesn't bother me. Newlady was having a problem with gossip, my point was that her sitter had no room to talk about church attendence, while gossipping to other's in front of New Lady's daughter(came from this thread: http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/48/806.html , sorry for the mix up it's been a bad day)

Why wouldn't you give first priority to the church? I don't understand the devaluation of the church.

Sorry, my first priority is to God not the church. God and the church are not equal in my book. Church's are fallible things made by man. This is not an attempt to devalue the church, the church has an important role to play in the life of a Christian. This is simply an attempt to balance out the variables in this life God has given us to live. Christ himself said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Would this by extension not also apply to church attendence?

 

[billreber]

AMEN, menageriekeeper!

My priority is to God -- and my secondary priority is to His people. That means that sometimes I must miss "church" because I am ministering to His people. It also means that sometimes I must miss "church" because I am ministering to someone who needs to meet Him.

If that happens every Wednesday night, am I "forsaking the assembling", or am I doing what God wants me to do? (Or Sunday AM or Sunday PM).

If that means any one of us needs to stay home and minister to an ill or disabled family member, are we doing God's will? I would say emphatically, YES!

Attending worship services is important, but NOT as important as ministering to people in God's name -- even if those people are family members.

BTW, I am a deacon, with duties as "deacon of the week". I am a Sunday School teacher. I am a greeter. I am in charge of our Children's Church. And I would gladly skip ANY of these if God tells me to minister to someone instead. (OUCH! I really love working with those children!)

Jesus did not condemn the Pharisees for going to worship services -- He condemned them for refusing to minister during "worship time". Is that what our children see us doing? Are we ministering, or are we attending church services?

(I know, these two are not mutually exclusive. But I hope you get my point).


Bill

 

[Thankful]

We must remember it is the pastor's job to encourage us to attend ALL the services at Church

 

[Paul33]

Why?

I specifically told my congregation that Sunday night is one of several Bible studies that the church offers and that everyone did not have to attend the Sunday night one. They could chose to attend a different one that met during the week if they so desired.

For the summer, we are moving Sunday night to Wednesday night.

 

[TC]

Originally posted by Thankful:
We must remember it is the pastor's job to encourage us to attend ALL the services at Church

You mean show up to the building at the set time? The church is the people. The building is just a building.

 

[HappyG]

Pastor_Bob,

You seem to have a real skill at making passages of Scripture that have nothing to do with what you are talking about say something you "want" them to say.

That is kind of scary in my book.

 

[HappyG]

Paul33,

YOu might be able to make alot of money if you can actually move "Sunday Night" to "Wednesday Night!"

 

[Pastor Larry]

You guys make me laugh. It is like no one is actually talking to each other and listening to what is being said, just repeating their set mantras.

Here's HappyG: I am arguing that church as you are defining it is ineffective and impractical. There are better ways and to define someone as spiritual because they put on a shirt and tie and are good listeners for 4 hours a week is silly. I challenge him to find anywhere that I said such a thing. He won't find it because I didn't say it, yet he responds as if that is the crux of my point. I don't even like shirts and ties, and to the dismay of some, I don't wear them on Sunday nights or Wednesday nights. He says it is ineffective and impractical ... how does he know that? Can he really comment on best to do things in this context? I had someone tell me yesterday ... a life-long Christian whose father was a pastor ... he told me that he had learned more in the three years he was here, than his entire life elsehwere (33 years). He said it has been tremendous growth for him ... I will have to let him know that we are impractical and ineffective.

HappyG says he feels sorry for people who work "real jobs" who are told that what they do isn't spiritual. You should have been here Wednesday night (if you can squeeze the time in) because we talked about work in our men's Bible study, and that fact that work is ultimately theological in nature, that jobs are commanded by God and we are ultimately working for him. I am not sure what you mean by "real jobs" but the implication sounds like you don't think being a pastor is a real job.

But you still haven't dealt with what I actually said, which was your breakdown of hours that are "requirements." And that is the problem. You aren't dealing with the real issues. By what authority did you break down those various requirements into hours? I don't get that.

And then why did you pretend I am against family time? That was silly ... I said nothing of the sort.

Paul says: If a hundred people meet on Sunday night at the church, have they fulfilled the biblical command? ... If ten bible study groups of ten people each meet throughout the community in homes, have they fufilled the biblical command? ... It's the same thing! But which one is your friend or neighbor likely to attend?[/quote]The ansewr is yes to the first two (assuming they are functioning biblically), and probably neither. IMO, small groups are not for visitors, and neither is Sunday night. Small groups are times for the body to fellowship and pray together. A visitor would feel totally out of place hearing people confess their sins to one another and struggle, IMO. Maybe your experience is different and that is fine. Sunday nights here are believers worship services and I preach to believers. I don't really care whether one has a Sunday night service or not. (SOmehow you guys keep missing that point.) I care whether the church is doing what the church should be doing.

Menangeriekeeper says You know Pastor Larry, you can quote that scripture all you want, but you still can't make it say "you must attend every service that your church provides". I would challenge her to show any place where I said it means you must attend every service. I'll bet she can't find it. What she did was read my comments from her own perspective, rather than reading what I actually said. What I actually said was that this is about the pattern and priorities of life.

She continues with Sorry, my first priority is to God not the church. I can't find any place in Scripture where you can make this dichotomy. It sounds pious. It is nonsense. This is like saying My priority is to my wife, not my marriage, or my priority is to my children, not my sons and daughters. It is a crazy thing to say. God and the church aren't equal, but the church is Christ's body, and Christ has commanded vital invovlement in it. Don't make false dichotomies.

She says Church's are fallible things made by man. And now it is a little easier to see why she views the church as she does. The church is not made by man. Christ said the church was something he would build, not man. Church is not man's idea; it is God's idea.

She says, Christ himself said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Would this by extension not also apply to church attendence?No, because that comment had nothing to do with church, but with rest.

Billreber says Attending worship services is important, but NOT as important as ministering to people in God's name Really? Ministering to others in God's name is more important than worship? Why do you think that Christ told Martha that Mary had chosen the better thing? That seems to contradict your position. I happen to think that neither is more important, that both have their place.

In the end, this is about priorities. What is important to us? Many people skip church for things they would never skip work for. Why? Because they value one more than the other. They will take a day off of church to camp out, leaving Friday night after work and coming back Sunday night. But would never think of taking a day off of work, leaving Thursday nigth and coming back Saturday night so they could be with God's people. They will skip church for a little sniffle, but wouldn't miss work for that same sniffle. That is about priorities.

It is not about attending every single service, though again, I am not sure why you wouldn't. You don't go on Sunday night because there is something so pressing that you absolutely cannot do in one of the other 167 hours during the week? Seriously?? That is mindboggling. We find time for things that are important to us.

There are all kinds of way to do the things that churches are supposed to do. I think small groups have great value, and they can meet whereever and whenever, for a variety of purposes (doctrine, growth, evangelism, etc.). My goal is not to get as many people in one place at one time as I can, but to get people knowing Christ and loving him. Everything we do is centered on that.

If you have a problem with that, then I don't know what to say.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
My goal is not to get as many people in one place at one time as I can, but to get people knowing Christ and loving him. Everything we do is centered on that.

If you have a problem with that, then I don't know what to say.

That is great. Everyone agrees with you. Nobody has a problem with that. Everyone agrees that regularly meeting with a church community is an important part of growing in our journey in Christ.

The thread title and question everyone else is discussing is whether attending every service your church offers is a requirement for this and it seems like you agree that it isn't.

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
It is not about attending every single service, though again, I am not sure why you wouldn't.

You may not think of reasons why, but others have their reasons. And even if you don't like their reasons, focusing on their imperfect attendance as a measure of their spiritual status and priorities and using that to judge others is not conducive to building up the body in that journey and is completely missing the point of worship.

A better way might be to say that you understand if they have other time commitments in life, but you would love to see them join you for the other services when time permit. Share the blessing those services have been to you. Folks will try to make time when you approach it like that if they can.

 

[Pastor Larry]

when time permit

To press this issue, why is this the standard? Do we not find time for things that are important to us? Have you ever noticed how much more we get done the day before a vacation? It is because there is something important. It seems to me that we recognize that in virtually every area of life ... but somehow, we miss it it when it comes to church.