Not attending all services

[Gunther]

Let us not abuse a verse here and there folks.

In Hebrews 10:25, it says not to FORSAKE the assembling together.

Missing a church service once a week doesn't fall into that category. This is one of the worst abuses among the arminian type, KJVO "baptists" I have ever seen. It is terrible.

If the church had something every night, should we always go since we can get a blessing? Please folks. Let us stop inventing things to lord over people.

I work late, and I don't go to church on wednesday because I want to spend time with my kids, which is also a biblical command. I have a scriptural precendent for that. No one has one for a midweek service. So back off you who equate faithfulness to God with a midweek service.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Pastor_Bob:
Absolutely wrong! Your argument is not me with friend. Your argument is with God Himself.

Sounds like God places a pretty high priority on preaching. Where do we hear preaching today? In our church services. Not at home, not in a one-on-one discipleship program, but in a real, live church service where the saints of God are gathered and the Word of God is preached.

You can dilute it all you want, but the fact is, God gave us preaching whereby we can grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. Why would anyone willfully, deliberately, without proper cause desire not to be in church where they can hear preaching? [/QB]

Don’t misunderstand me. I have preached in the open air to over one thousand people at one time. I take preaching very seriously. But discipleship very seriously also. People say I am intense. When I am asked to preach I try to give it my best. I believe that whatever we do, we must do it to the glory of God.

You need to understand that I am not advocating weak unprepared sermons. I have heard far too many. I believe that what we preach must be thought out and we must be have been before God in our room. I have heard too much religious nonsense in my life. Our churches are filled with people who listen to that trash each week and the pastor does not lead them in teaching them how to do ministry by taking them with him. The church does not need people who are great at listening to sermons but doing ministry and teaching people how to disciple others.

If preaching is the only way to do ministry Jesus was a huge failure. He did not start one church but we are here today because of those he discipled.

Show me how the context of those verses you cited fits in with our ecclesiastical structure today. They do not. The churches in the NT were small house churches not some big building with a steeple on top with the name Baptist on the front sign. Not one verse you quoted made the point about more preaching making better disciples.

I do not disagree with the value of preaching. It has its proper place but not to take the place of personal discipleship. To over emphasize preaching is to underestimate the purpose of teaching the people to obey the commands Jesus gave as He talks about in Mt. 28:19, 20 and 4:19. When Jesus taught he also showed them more.

Remember when Jesus sent His disciples out two by two? How much preaching did they get? Would more preaching made them a better disciple? Just look at Judas. All got the same amount from Jesus.

God didn't just give us preaching. He gives gifts too. To place such importance on preaching is to negate the other gifts. In fact it has been shown that people will remember the songs in church better than our preaching.

Give me one afternoon with a man who has never shared his faith and I can assure you more will be accomplished than fifty sermons on evangelism.

I have won many to Christ without ever preaching a sermon in a church. I have never started a church by preaching in a corn field or church. But I have started churches by knocking on doors and winning them to Christ and discipling them.

If more preaching made better disciples. Then we would find Christians who are dead where it is illegal to preach in a church. But the facts show quite the opposite. Where the Christians are persecuted the church is growing the fastest and they are the strongest.

If you believe that preaching can accomplish so much then try to explain to someone how to build a house and then turn them loose to do it. They will know little more than when you first started. So it is with preaching in the church. The more ministry people do the more they will understand sermons. However they will not understand many sermons if the man in the pulpit and the congregation do little ministry.

Preaching people to discipleship is preaching people to disobedience against Matthew 28:19,20 and the example Jesus set forth when he discipled His disciples. Jesus taught them by showing them how to do ministry and have faith.

Sometime read http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm

Then tell us what you think.

 

[gb93433]

TBEY IS BETTER THAN SACRIFICE LYRICS

To obey is better than sacrifice
I don’t need your money
I want your life
And I hear you say that I’m coming back soon
But you act like I’ll never return

Well you speak of grace and my love so sweet
How you thrive on milk, but reject my meat
And I can’t help weeping of how it will be
If you keep on ignoring my words
Well you pray to prosper and succeed
But your flesh is something I just can’t feed

To obey is better than sacrifice
I want more than Sunday and Wednesday nights
Cause if you can’t come to me every day
Then don’t bother coming at all
La,la,la etc.

To obey is better than sacrifice
I want hearts of fire
Not your prayers of ice
And I’m coming quickly
To give back to you
According to what you have done
According to what you have done
According to what you have done

Keith Green

 

[Frank Warren]

newlady, relax. Jesus did not shed his blood for you so that you would shed your blood for churchgoing. Do what you can, but you also need to make time for your own family. Love, Charity and Christian Behavior, if it does not exist at home, cannot be said to exist at all.

And I would add that Christ, God and the Spirit know what is in your heart, and will not begrudge you the rest you need to carry on, nor spending time with your own family!

Sounds to me like you really have your hands full!

Frank

 

[HappyG]

Pastor Larry,

"I" don't require people to work 40 hours or more a week. "Life" requires them too. "I" don't require people to get 7-8 hours of sleep a night. "Life" does.

And the amount of time God assigned for people to live out their faith is 24 hours a day.

Remember, I am only questioning the pastors who set up the system. Why would you create 3 or 4 or 5 similar environments every week? And as much as you want to say your environments are different, they actually are in the same genre. A teacher and people lined up in rows. I simply suggest their is better ways and there are many examples to back up what I am saying.

Unfortunately, we have many "pew" sitters who have trained by "pastors" who preached sermons which made them feel that by attending church 3x a week they are "real" Christians. So if a pastor goes to change those things, he will get run out of town by the people he trained.

That is why I enjoy reaching the un-churched and training them. Just my preference.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Originally posted by Paul33:
What I desire is to study, worship, and praise God on Sunday morning. Because you have a system in place that defines what a spiritual Christian is, I would skip your church. Why? Because your system is at odds with when I want to worship.

What's wrong with that?

The words in bold print are what's wrong with that.

 

[Gunther]

Paul33, there is a time and place to worship. There is nothing wrong with that. Christ is not opposed to organization. In fact, it is chaos that he is opposed to.

My problem is when people twist and pervert so many texts to get their point across.

 

[Pastor Larry]

When do you choose to meet with God's people for worship? Please list out all of the times that you normally do this in a week. Thanks.

Sunday night 6:00pm

 

[Pastor Larry]

"I" don't require people to work 40 hours or more a week. "Life" requires them too. "I" don't require people to get 7-8 hours of sleep a night. "Life" does.

And the amount of time God assigned for people to live out their faith is 24 hours a day.

Living out your faith was not the subject of this thread. IT was the services of the body of Christ and how faithful should we be to the body of Christ. That is where my comments were directed, which is why I have avoided discussing how many hours a day we should "live out our faith."

Why would you create 3 or 4 or 5 similar environments every week?

My question exactly. I would challenge anyone who does this.

And as much as you want to say your environments are different, they actually are in the same genre. A teacher and people lined up in rows.

The fact that they might be "a teacher and people lined up in rows" is not the point. They aren't anyway ... but that is beside the point. No one says that school and the movies are the same because there is something going on at the front and people sitting in rows listening. Content and purpose define existence.

Unfortunately, we have many "pew" sitters who have trained by "pastors" who preached sermons which made them feel that by attending church 3x a week they are "real" Christians.

I agree ... That is a travesty. No pastor should train his people to think that they are spiritual because they attend services.

That is why I enjoy reaching the un-churched and training them. Just my preference.

That is my preference as well. It is certainly my goal.

But remember what my point is ... It is about priorities. What is more important than attendance at the meetings of the body of Christ? My point has never been about the number of services. It has always been about the mindset that determines our faithfulness. When Paul says that he will give God Sunday morning till 11:30 and a midweek home Bible study, that sounds pretty limiting. Hopefully, for his sake, God chooses to work only in those times ... He accused me of taking his statements out of context, but I think that is easily disproved by looking at what he said. I never said anything about him not living his faith 24 hours a day. That has never been my point. My point is about priorities ...

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Originally posted by Paul33:
I would really like to know. When do you choose to meet with God's people for worship? Please list out all of the times that you normally do this in a week. Thanks.

Sunday 10:00 AM - Sunday School

Sunday 11:00 AM - Morning Worship

Sunday 3:30 PM - This is a jail service so many are not God's people, but many are.

Sunday 6:30 P.M. - Evening Worship

Monday 7:00 P.M. - This is our Discipleship Class, we do not meet "every" Monday evening, we meet most weeks unless there is a schedule conflict. This class is a 6 or 8 week course mainly for new converts

Tuesday 6:30 A.M. - Men's Bible Study & Prayer Breakfast

Wednesday 6:30 A.M. - Men's Bible Study & Prayer Breakfast

Wednesday 7:00 P.M.

 

[Pastor Larry]

In Hebrews 10:25, it says not to FORSAKE the assembling together.

Missing a church service once a week doesn't fall into that category.

By what standard did you come to the conclusion that "missing a church service once a week doesn't fall into that category"? Does your text say something the ones I have do not say? If it is wrong to use this text to say you should attend them all, it is just as wrong to use it to say that you don't have to attend them all.

If the church had something every night, should we always go since we can get a blessing?

Do you know of any church (besides hte first century church) who does this?

I work late, and I don't go to church on wednesday because I want to spend time with my kids, which is also a biblical command. I have a scriptural precendent for that. No one has one for a midweek service. So back off you who equate faithfulness to God with a midweek service.

Where is your scriptural support for spending time with your kids? I can give you scriptural support for a midweek service. The NT tells us that the church met daily (that had to include the midweek). It tells us they met for prayer (which, in our culture, does not happen in our Sunday services typically). So there is clearly biblical teaching about the things that happen at most midweek services.

But more to the point, why is Wednesday the only time during the week that you can be with your kids? I am not trying to judge you, please understand. But what goes on the other 167 hours of the week?

I remain firmly convinced, through Bible and experience, that the best thing a dad can do for his family is have them in church. I can find no reason not to.

 

[Gunther]

Larry, what does the word forsake mean? It means to forsake.

A text can only mean what it was meant to say. Forsake means forsake.

If you eat dinner once a week with a guy friend, have you forsaken your family?

As to the other point, I said I get home late.

If I scrambled, I might just make part of the service. Either I can do that or I can spend time with my family. I can teach them from scripture also.

As to the first century church, there were reasons they met every day of the week that are not really relevant to us today. So again, there is no scripture to support a mid week service. It is just something people choose to do.

 

[Gunther]

While you may be convinced through your experience alone, others are not. We probably both know of how many stories there are of families who are a disaster because their father, sometimes the pastor even, was always at church. Sorry, you have moved into the extrabiblical, and that isn't where I like to debate.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The word forsake means to abandon or desert. My point is that the verse does not testify to how many services we should attend. It does not argue we should attend them all, which you agree with. Your mistake was saying that it said you didn't have to attend them all. It doesn't say that either. The point of Heb 10:25 is that consistent fellowship and involvement in the body is the responsibility of the Christian life. To forsake the body, or in the words of 10:26, to go on sinning willfully, is to put one's faith in question.

I am not sure what reasons you think the NT church had to meet every day that we don't have. I don't think necessarily that everyone met every day. I think they were generally a lot closer than we are today in terms of fellowship. I think that somewhere in teh various cities the church was meeting and reaching out. So the truth remains, whether you accept it or not, that there is clear evidence to support a meeting other than Sunday, which by definition would be midweek. Let me ask you this: If you only meet on Sunday, when do you pray with your church family?

As for your last post, somehow separated, if you notice my post, I did not argue for experience alone. I argued from Scripture and experienced. There are many families who children turned away because they were "always at church." But that is a poor excuse to not be at church. The answer to problems is not create more problems. It is to solve the first problem of bad parenting.

I have not moved into the extra-biblical to support anything. My point has always been about the priority of the body of Christ.

 

[TexasSky]

I can see several sides to this discussion. I think Christians need Christian fellowship and Christian education. However, they also need times together as a family.

The Christian Magazine "Home Life" once did an article that asked "Is your church destroying your family?" The basic idea was, if you spend so much time at church in activities that are very segregated by age or gender, and you end up with no family time - you're making a mistake.

I am careful to balance my church time between things that separate us into divisions, and things that bring us together as a family.

I think this is one area many churches err in. I used to do extended session all the time. (For those of you in smaller churches - this is where your church has 2 morning services. You attend one, and then you teach children while others attend one.) For a long time this was wonderful for our family. We all taught together. It was a growth experience for us.

Then someone decided that the extended sessions should not allow the teacher's children in. We could understand that, but it did present a bit of a difficulty on our own children. Now instead of being separated from us for Sunday School and church, they were looking at almost four hours without us by the time you add in the "wait for the last parents to come" and "clean up" times in.

Then they decided the sessions should not be taught by couples. I never was given a logical or biblical explanation for that one. We prayed about it, and quit teaching extended session... now, they've had to do away with extended session because many couples objected to that little dogma.

When my oldest daughter was a youth we once looked at the activities scheduled for her, and realized that if she actually participated in them all we wouldn't see her for more than one hour every evening.

That was just - too much.

When I was single I was at the church every day for one reason or another. When I married, my spouse complained that the "other man" in his life was the church. I cut back on some of the activities.

 

[Paul33]

Larry misquoting Paul,

"When Paul says that he will give God Sunday morning till 11:30 and a midweek home Bible study, that sounds pretty limiting."

Larry, I never said that I give God Sunday morning. I said that I choose to worship on Sunday morning. You choose to worship on Sunday evening. So you desire and want something at a different time of day than I do.

Why am I wrong for wanting to worship on Sunday morning until 11:30 and you are right for wanting to worship on Sunday night?

You make no sense.

 

[Paul33]

Larry,

Some churches worship their Lord on Sunday morning and pray with each other on Sunday morning and disciple each other on Sunday morning.

Because some prefer to do all three on Sunday morning, how can you accuse them of forsaking the church?

You have three services with three different purposes. Some do all three in one morning.

I choose or want or desire to do all three in one morning. You choose something else. And you accuse me of only wanting to give God Sunday morning, as if the rest of the week is mine, not God's. It's so inflammatory and insulting.

Anyone who reads our exchanges knows that you and Bob are doing the very thing that you deny; setting up a system of church and demanding that everyone attend on the basis of "you can't understand why anyone wouldn't give church a priority." You define church one way, deny that right to others, and claim the high road of priorities. Insane.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Paul33:
Larry misquoting Paul,

"When Paul says that he will give God Sunday morning till 11:30 and a midweek home Bible study, that sounds pretty limiting."

Larry, I never said that I give God Sunday morning. I said that I choose to worship on Sunday morning. You choose to worship on Sunday evening. So you desire and want something at a different time of day than I do.

Why am I wrong for wanting to worship on Sunday morning until 11:30 and you are right for wanting to worship on Sunday night?

You make no sense.

I didn't misquote you. I didn't even quote you at all. You are the one who said what you said. I merely referenced it and said at the very least it sounded bad. You are not wrong for wanting to worship on Sunday morning until 11:30. I never said you were. That's just a straw man you are making up.

Because some prefer to do all three on Sunday morning, how can you accuse them of forsaking the church?

Talk about misquoting ... what in the world ... I didn't say anyone was forsaking the church for doing it all on Sunday morning. I asked if a church only meets on Sunday when they pray together. Go back and read what I actually said and get down off your high horse. Don't try to turn this into something it's not.

Anyone who reads our exchanges knows that you and Bob are doing the very thing that you deny; setting up a system of church and demanding that everyone attend on the basis of "you can't understand why anyone wouldn't give church a priority." You define church one way, deny that right to others, and claim the high road of priorities. Insane.

I can't speak for Bob, but it is insane that you think I am doing this. You are not reading with an open mind if you truly think that is what I said. I said in the very beginning that I don't care whether a church meets on Sunday night or not. And I don't care whether another church does it differently than we do. All the way back on page 5 I said I am not saying everyone needs to do it "my way" ... I don't even know what Paul thinks that is. I do believe every church needs to be doing what the NT says to do. So quite clearly, your assessment is incorrect, and was answered a long time ago.

Back on page two I asked you the following, to try to direct the conversation in a better way.

By what criteria do we judge when we have fellowshipped enough with God's people, worshipped enough in Christ's body, and learned enough from the corporate teaching of God's word?

(Mind you, I am not being judgmental of you or anyone else. My point is to probe your reasoning for such a statement, and the reasoning of anyone else who cares to contribute.)

How does one decide when they have attended church enough for a given week?

Unfortunately, as happens too often with you, it turned personal. And I am disappointed in that. You seem to be much more insistent on your way than I am on mine. You claim not to be judgmental, but certainly have sat in judgment on me for something I don't even believe ... How ironic is that ...

I haven't set up a standard. I encourage people to be here. No one gets in trouble if they aren't. If a regular misses, I may mention it. The only people required to be here are me and the deacons. I don't demand everyone attend. I simply posed a question about why someone wouldn't give the body of Christ the priority over other things.

There's nothing inflammatory or insulting in what I said. If you would have read it thoughtfully instead of judgmentally you may have seen that. It is disappointing to see you once again take a conversation in this direction Paul. I wish you would get past that.

 

[TexasSky]

Why do we assume that fellowship with Christians only takes place inside the walls of the church?

I am a very blessed woman in that almost 90% of the members of our local public school are also strong Christians. Many of us attend the same church. An even larger number are members of the same denomination (Baptist).

My son's baseball league is from a small town near us. All of the coaches are either ministers or deacons.

In my office there are five of us who start of the morning by sharing praises and prayer requests.

I attend my place of worship and participate in activities there, but I fellowship with Christians away from my house of worship quite often.

 

[Kiffen]

Should we not bring in the issue of Church authority in this debate?

When one joins the Fellowship of a local Church body do they see it as like attending a Sports event? or a commitment to that Church and to be faithfull to the services in attendance and in financial support and becoming part of the ministry of the Church.

Does one look at a Church of what it offers to you or what you can offer to it?

Personally I think Baptists have made Church membership to easy with no requirement of it's membership unless they are on staff. It is often the 60 year old and older group that holds many churches together because of their commitment to the Church both in attendance, service, ministry and financial giving. We can learn much from them.