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Not to bring up the Catholic thing again, but...
- Thread starter Emily25069
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Prayer involves:
Confession (of sin)
Praise
Thanksgiving
Intercession
Petition
Those are the basics of prayer. In praise we worship, adore, give honor, to the One who redeemed us, created us, saved us, atoned for our sins. However we also thank him for those things as well.
So, more than that we praise Him for who he is: Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, just, kind, merciful, loving, etc. We think of His attributes and praise Him for who He is.
The problem with the RCC is that they give that praise and adoration that is due only to God to Mary. That is blasphemy and idolatry. It is also necromancy--praying to the dead. The sin is horrible. It is a sin that God does not tolerate and the full weight of it will come upon those that practice it at the Judgment--for all will give account of themselves.
Over and over again the Scriptures tell us that God is a "Jealous God." He will not give his glory or even share his glory with another. The RCC fails to recognize this truth and gives that glory even more to Mary than to God Himself. What a travesty this is. Recognizing this, is the RCC more correctly labeled as the cult of Mary? Even the emphasis on the rosary indicates this. The "Hail Mary" is said 53 times, while the "Our Father" is said only 7 times. A little unbalanced don't you think.
There are others here that can posted and have great flowing prayers of adoration and praise to Mary, such as one would never address a person here on earth. So the matter of intercession (as asking one to intercede for them) is moot. Asking Mary is praying to Mary. It is no longer asking. It is worshiping. It is making Mary a god. Thus the RCC has become polytheistic.
Confession (of sin)
Praise
Thanksgiving
Intercession
Petition
Those are the basics of prayer. In praise we worship, adore, give honor, to the One who redeemed us, created us, saved us, atoned for our sins. However we also thank him for those things as well.
So, more than that we praise Him for who he is: Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, just, kind, merciful, loving, etc. We think of His attributes and praise Him for who He is.
The problem with the RCC is that they give that praise and adoration that is due only to God to Mary. That is blasphemy and idolatry. It is also necromancy--praying to the dead. The sin is horrible. It is a sin that God does not tolerate and the full weight of it will come upon those that practice it at the Judgment--for all will give account of themselves.
Over and over again the Scriptures tell us that God is a "Jealous God." He will not give his glory or even share his glory with another. The RCC fails to recognize this truth and gives that glory even more to Mary than to God Himself. What a travesty this is. Recognizing this, is the RCC more correctly labeled as the cult of Mary? Even the emphasis on the rosary indicates this. The "Hail Mary" is said 53 times, while the "Our Father" is said only 7 times. A little unbalanced don't you think.
There are others here that can posted and have great flowing prayers of adoration and praise to Mary, such as one would never address a person here on earth. So the matter of intercession (as asking one to intercede for them) is moot. Asking Mary is praying to Mary. It is no longer asking. It is worshiping. It is making Mary a god. Thus the RCC has become polytheistic.
Not completely. If you could attend an Old Latin rite mass, or a High Mass, or even a High Anglican Mass, then you would know what I mean.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
which ignores the definition of prayer that must be understood in context.
such as
Not all of it is for purposes of referrence to diaologue as we would to God.
such as
Not all of it is for purposes of referrence to diaologue as we would to God.
The definitions that you gave are:
1. from the English language.
2. from modern day English.
Jesus and the Apostles did not speak English.
They did not live in the 20th century.
Therefore your definitions do not apply.
If you want the proper definitions of prayer:
--First go to the context where the word is used.
Context defines the word.
Second, look up the word in the original language. Then choose the meaning of the word in the original language that best fits the context in which it is used. Be sure that it fits the historical context in which it is used. This is the only way that you can determine how a word is used.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Catholics are people who live in the modern context and are explaining what they do in a context by which we can understand. Whether Jesus spoke Aramaic over English is irrelevant to the discussion because the discussion is whether Catholics Pray to Mary after the fashion that they pray to God. So modern textual definitions is of importance. You are operating off a different definition than they are thus there is a modern communication problem. First understand their definition which I've placed then make comment. You're commenting on your definition which is not the same thus your comments are irrrelevant until you use the appropiate context.
That's too bad for them and for you.
The Bible is my final authority in all things pertaining to faith and doctrine.
Therefore I must use definitions that come from the Bible.
The Bible alone is my measuring stick. It is absolute.
Let me give you an example--the Ten Commandments.
You can re-define: Thou shalt not kill (commit murder), any way you want. But it still means Don't Murder! It is clearly explained in the Bible. You can re-define it as "cheating" but that is not what it is. You can make it anything you want. But the Bible is absolute in its definitions, and that is what I will go by.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
two things wrong with your statement. No one has questioned the bible or its authoritative nature. What is being discussed is whether Catholics pray to Mary is the same as what one offers to God. Definitions are thus needed to be clarified. I don't pray to Mary in either context if that helps you.
Next the bible does not say "thou shalt not kill" then goes on to define that what it means is murder. The bible doesn't define itself this way. Your wrong if you think it does.
I didn't say you pray to Mary; but others on this board do and say they don't. They try to excuse themselves by using English definitions instead of Biblical definitions. That is no excuse.
Again, this was an example. Actually it does define what murder is. It even defines manslaughter in the Mosaic Laws. It also defines murder in the NT as anger. But it doesn't define it as "cheating," if someone were to attach such a ridiculous meaning to it. (I am not saying that someone did). It is simply an example. My point is that the Bible is our authority, and any definitions used must come from the Bible.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Not if were discussing something requiring our modern language. Prayer to God is exemplified in the bible and when you do it to God it should be done in accordance with scripture. Catholics are saying they don't pray to mary that way so the bible is not the source document for arguing agianst them unless you can prove that they are using the bible context with regard to Mary.
And if the Bible is not the source document for argument against them, we have nothing in common to talk about. I will only discuss things on the basis of the Bible and that is all. That is why I don't use the ECF as my authority. It's the same argument. My authority is the Bible. It is also called sola scriptura.
The bottom line is this:
In order to hear the prayers of all of the people on earth, one would need to be aware of what is going on earth, be able to listen to all of the prayers on earth (be many places at once) and be able to read minds and hearts for silent prayers.
So, where do we see in Scripture that anyone but the Godhead can be everywhere and know everything?
In order to hear the prayers of all of the people on earth, one would need to be aware of what is going on earth, be able to listen to all of the prayers on earth (be many places at once) and be able to read minds and hearts for silent prayers.
So, where do we see in Scripture that anyone but the Godhead can be everywhere and know everything?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Unless you are outside of space time and God brings stuff to your awareness.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
And we see this happening where in Scripture?
Are we talking about radios and telephones now? Could Neil Armstrong read my mind when I talk to him in my head?
If Mary isn't dead, she must be pretty old now! Where can I visit her? It is appointed unto man ONCE TO DIE. Mary died! Her soul lives on, but SHE IS DEAD until her body is resurrected.
I'm actually quite shocked you support Lori and the RCC's position on this
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Are we talking about radios and telephones now? Could Neil Armstrong read my mind when I talk to him in my head?
If Mary isn't dead, she must be pretty old now! Where can I visit her? It is appointed unto man ONCE TO DIE. Mary died! Her soul lives on, but SHE IS DEAD until her body is resurrected.
I'm actually quite shocked you support Lori and the RCC's position on this
According to Catholics Mary recieved the ressurrection early? I could be wrong but I think thats what they mean by assumption. And who knows who can hear your thoughts? I don't support Lori on this. I have my disagreements with the Catholic church. At one point I was going to Post a deconstruction of the Doctrine of Purgatory. But it would have taken a lot of effort and I'm pretty lazy though I might still do it. I have inside access to what Catholics believe and I want to clarify what it is first before dismanteling it.
Oh and I like arguing with you.
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They do believe she died sinless, and never saw death. The Bible says differently.
The only one who can hear your thoughts is God. No human is omniscient.
I like "debating" with you too
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
They do believe she died sinless, and never saw death. The Bible says differently.
The only one who can hear your thoughts is God. No human is omniscient.
I like "debating" with you too
To be honest Web Dog the bible doesn't say anything one way or another about Mary 1) being born sinless 2) Never seeing death 3) or dormition if your EO.
And MY wife can hear my thoughts which is why I wear aluminium foil on my head around her.
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