Not under Law --Under Grace!

[D28guy]

Brother Bob,

"I never said no such thing, you need to read real slow. I said God give me peace so I was willing to die.

What I said is that the Lord said I will never leave you and would not let you die "worrying"."

OK.

So you then believe that if someone professing to be a christian worries a bit as they die that proves they never were a christian, because they worried?

I mean it has to be one or the other, Bob. You have agreed that worrying is a sin, and you hold that a christian will not die in sin, such as adultery, and go to heaven.

So if worrying is a sin just like adultery (and you seem to be acknowledging that), then to do either as you die (cant repent), adultery or worrying, it means hell for that one.

Correct?

Mike

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight. Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

GE:
What's the relevance?

 

[Brother Bob]

What is it that you don't understand about Jesus saying I will never leave you or forsake you and at death the Lord removes any worrying you might of had so you don't die "worrying".

I don't wish to continue this. I give you the answer that the Lord will not let you die in that condition if you are saved. God Bless its nap time for this old man.

If someone is in the act of Adultery when they die then they are going to the Lake of Fire.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

God has not given us a spirit of fear. He has promised to give us peace in life's hardest trials.

The true child of God will not fear in death, for God is with Him. Psalm 23.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

GE:
What's the relevance?

The relevance is...

It does not matter how people may seem on the outside, giving to the church, attendance, baptism, profession, etc.,

If they willfully sin before they die and do not repent of that sin, but die in that sin, they will be cut off.

Am I saying a child of God will lose his or her salvation? By all means No. I am saying that the tree was not what it appeared.

The Word says 'God hates all workers of iniquity', it means just that. Notice it said 'workers' and not just works.

Look at the seven abominations that God hates found in Proverbs 6:16 - 19. All these are hands, feet, heart, tongue, etc. Man who sins.

One can live righteously all one's life and if they turn to wickedness, that one will be cut off, the Word declares it in Ezekiel 18:23 - 29.

 

[DHK]

Methinks too often our greatest sin is that we do not worry enough.

I agree.
It must work.
More than half the things I worry about never come to pass. :laugh:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The relevance is...

It does not matter how people may seem on the outside, giving to the church, attendance, baptism, profession, etc.,

If they willfully sin before they die and do not repent of that sin, but die in that sin, they will be cut off.

Am I saying a child of God will lose his or her salvation? By all means No. I am saying that the tree was not what it appeared.

The Word says 'God hates all workers of iniquity', it means just that. Notice it said 'workers' and not just works.

Look at the seven abominations that God hates found in Proverbs 6:16 - 19. All these are hands, feet, heart, tongue, etc. Man who sins.

One can live righteously all one's life and if they turn to wickedness, that one will be cut off, the Word declares it in Ezekiel 18:23 - 29.

GE:
Je wel, you may be right although its tough to accept .... I like Job here: I know in whom I have believed --- it's enough for me; it surely is enough for EVERYBODY who believe in God through Jesus Christ, whether he died while doing a last sin or not. All one's sins had been forgiven in Jesus - a fact that remains; nothing can change it. If God willed, I will be saved -- in fact, I AM saved, Rest my soul in your Redeemer!

 

[BobRyan]

Am I saying a child of God will lose his or her salvation? By all means No. I am saying that the tree was not what it appeared.

The Word says 'God hates all workers of iniquity', it means just that. Notice it said 'workers' and not just works.

.

Ok this is the view that DOES hold to the Bible doctrine on Perseverance instead of rejecting it.

So this is much appreciated.

However we still have the problem of Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked"
John 15 "Being cast out of the vine of Christ"
Romans 11 "CAST OUT of Christ" as the unbelieving Jews were -

 

[BobRyan]

Dear Arminians, who of you was the first to throw the stone of human vengeance on that miserable soul caught in the act? Have you never peace and assurance?

Huh??? do more reading and less imagining sir.

The Arminian KNOWS that he is SAVED TODAY but does not know that TEN YEARS from today he will choose to CONTINUE to persevere....

The 3 and 5 point Calvinist can not even know that much for sure at least not by holding consistent views of their doctrines.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Diggin in da Word

Am I saying a child of God will lose his or her salvation? By all means No. I am saying that the tree was not what it appeared.

The Word says 'God hates all workers of iniquity', it means just that. Notice it said 'workers' and not just works.

I amen that as well.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Bob,

I see those in the verses you mentioned above as not saved. Remember, Judas was one of the twelve Apostles, yet he was the son of destruction.

In John 6:66 (interesting that the number is the same as the number of the beast), many that had been following Him turned away and followed Him no more.

Many follow Him, going to church and living righteous lives for reasons other than what the heart should follow Him. We shoud follow Him because we love Him... not to escape hell, not to go to heaven to see our loved ones who have gone on before, but just because we love him.

 

[BobRyan]

DHK, I usually agree with you, but this doesn't make sense to me. The body houses the spirit only while it is alive on this earth, but once it dies the body is left behind to rot while the spirit goes to be with the Lord. Therefore, at death the 2 separate. Thus it would seem that the flesh and the spirit are at war, as Paul says, and that is why one is able to sin and the other is not.

At the resurrection the spirit and the glorified body (perfect and incorruptible) unite. But, maybe I've got it wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

Right about the spirit and the glorified body uniting in the resurrection.

Wrong about thinking that one is not sinning WHILE sinning. There is no such thing. Never does scripture say "you did good by not sinning WHILE your body was sinning" RATHER 1Cor 6 argues the OPPOSITE -- It says that you are "sinning against your body" in some cases becaues the YOU that is sinning IS the inner you. It is what comes out of the defiled heart that is sin. The BAD tree brings forth bad truth.

Your idea above is a "good tree - bad fruit" doctrine not found in Matt 7.

In Christ

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

I see those in the verses you mentioned above as not saved. Remember, Judas was one of the twelve Apostles, yet he was the son of destruction.

.

Let's take a hard look at Matt 18 where we find that the King claims to have fully forgiven and redeemed the servant and that they THEN should have forgiven others showing mercy AS THEY HAD been shown mercy.

it was not of the form "I might one day show you mercy so in anticipation of such forgiveness you should now forgive others"

Please take a look at the chapter and let me know what you think.

 

[DHK]

The relevance is...

It does not matter how people may seem on the outside, giving to the church, attendance, baptism, profession, etc.,

If they willfully sin before they die and do not repent of that sin, but die in that sin, they will be cut off.

This is a denial of OSAS.
It is an assurance that almost all people will end up in Hell.
No one can be perfectly holy, even at the time of death.
Those who profess to be completely without sin are just proving themselves to be liars, which of course is sin in itself.

I go back to the two greatest commandments:

Matthew 22:37-39 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
38And the second is like unto it,
39 Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Even at the point of death I don't beleive any person can honestly say that they have kept these two commandments, and therefore they live in sin. They have rebellied against God and die in sin not having kept these two sins.
To love God with ALL your heart? I don't think so. You have not done that. You have not given God 100% of your heart even to your dying moment. To say otherwise is sin in itself.
To love him with all your soul? No way! No evil thought has ever entered your mind, that has not been repented of? I doubt it. Paul wrote to cast down every imagination and thought that exalts itself against Christ. Have you done that, even til the very dying moment of your life? I don't think so.
And with all your mind? The same thought as expressed above.
Perhaps the soul has more the thought of bringing every emotion under control.

And to love your neighbor as yourself. Not a chance. How much do you care for your body, yourself? How much do you spend on food, clothing, housing? Do you do that for your neighbor, or those in need, on the foreign mission field? I think not! Do you really love your neighbor as your self?

And thus you die in rebellion to these--the two greatest commands of Christ.
No doubt you will die in opposition to the Great Commission and you zeal of carrying it out--going into all the world and discipling all nations. How much effort have you put into that.
Jesus said: A man ought always to pray and not to faint. Likewilse Paul said: Pray without ceasing. Have you kept that command.

And suppose you lie, and die of a heart attack, suddenly without the chance of repentance. Then, according to your own theology you are doomed to Hell. Is this your theology?
Brother Bob?
Digging?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Huh??? do more reading and less imagining sir.

The Arminian KNOWS that he is SAVED TODAY but does not know that TEN YEARS from today he will choose to CONTINUE to persevere....

The 3 and 5 point Calvinist can not even know that much for sure at least not by holding consistent views of their doctrines.

In Christ,

Bob

GE:
I'll make a confession; I'll witness: I as a Calvinist KNOW that I am SAVED IN CHRIST FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, and KNOW that TEN YEARS from today AND FOR ALL ETERNITY, I am the chosen of Him who loved me first, and who will finish in me the work He had begun -- to CONTINUE to persevere until the end.

 

[Brother Bob]

Wrong about thinking that one is not sinning WHILE sinning. There is no such thing. Never does scripture say "you did good by not sinning WHILE your body was sinning" RATHER 1Cor 6 argues the OPPOSITE -- It says that you are "sinning against your body" in some cases becaues the YOU that is sinning IS the inner you. It is what comes out of the defiled heart that is sin. The BAD tree brings forth bad truth.

Your idea above is a "good tree - bad fruit" doctrine not found in Matt 7.

In Christ

Bob

Show me where the Spirit or inward man sins after being born again. I realize it would agree with your belief that all goes in the grave or out of existance and nothing goes to Heaven at death but Paul disagreed with you.

I delight in the Law after the inward man.

2 Corinthians, chapter 4
10: Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11: For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

What is "born again" and what does it mean.

1 Peter, chapter 1

22: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24: For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

you are saying a purified soul can sin, Peter and I say not for it is born of an incorruptible seed, by the word of God.


John, chapter 3
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I think you can see where the flesh goes.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:
"It is an assurance that almost all people will end up in Hell."

GE:
Yea; you have come to my rescue. That says it precisely! Thanks!

 

[Brother Bob]

And suppose you lie, and die of a heart attack, suddenly without the chance of repentance. Then, according to your own theology you are doomed to Hell. Is this your theology?
Brother Bob?
Digging?

According to my theory, you were never saved to start with.

 

[Claudia_T]

In view of the passage below about the man who was coveteous, I do not see why people seem to think that if you are just "unlucky" enough to die in the state of rebellion against God then its just "too cruel" somehow for God to judge them as lost.

I mean, it says God is going to require EVERYBODY'S soul at a certain period of time... so what's that got to do with anything?


Luke 12:
15: And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
16: And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
17: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
18: And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
19: And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
20: But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
21: So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.


THAT is why Jesus said so clearly right after the passage below to BE READY! AT ALL TIMES!!! "Lights burning" !!!! at all times....

Luke 12:
35: Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36: And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37: Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38: And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39: And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40: Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41: Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42: And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43: Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44: Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45: But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46: The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Yea, Christ put it in a word: He came to save ... sinners! Hurrah!