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Not under Law --Under Grace!

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Brother Bob

New Member
Read Mark 10.
Jesus demonstrated to the rich young ruler that it was impossible to keep all the commandments. He told him: Thou knowest the commandments...This do and thou shalt live."
The rich young ruler lied to him and replied: "Master all these have I kept from my youth up." It was a lie. He had not, and could not. It is an impossibility. And Jesus proceeded to demonstrate it to him.
He said: "One thing thou lackest, sell all that thou hast, give to the poor, take up thy cross, and follow me."
He was rich. Unwilling to do that, he went away sorrowful. Why? Because he loved his riches more than he loved Christ. His sin, that Christ demonstrated was covetousness. Thou shalt not covet. He coveted his riches more than he desired Christ. His riches became his idol, his god.
"How hardly shall a rich man enter into the kingdom of God."
Well, your statement from above, completely misrepresents the scripture. I think Jesus was in a much better position than your or I to know if the young man was lying. The point is, Jesus told him how important it was to keep the Commandments and you say it don't matter for you can't. Who is right, you or Jesus?

I mean, you have decided to go "head to head" with the Master Himself. He says keep the Commandments, you say Naaaaaaa.

You have the dubious honor of being the very first to say, you don't even believe in keeping the two Commandments Jesus said I give unto you.

One other thing, do you believe the "soul" of a saved person goes to Heaven at the natural death?
 
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Claudia_T

New Member
DHK said:
Aren't you good at taking Scripture out of context.

Fulfillment of Scripture and the preservation of Scripture has absolutely nothing to do with the keeping of the law.

The righteousness that Christ was speaking of was the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Unless one has the righteousness of Christ which exceeds the self-righteousness of the Pharissees (which came about by keeping the law), you shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Which righteousness do you have?

This again has nothing to do with keeping the law. It has to do with reconciliation with your brother. If you have something against your brother go to him, and make things right. There is nothing here about the Ten Commandments.
Your idea of keeping the law is absurd.


LOOK< Jesus had just told everyone that they needed to have righteousness that EXCEEDED the Pharisees. Then He proceeded to explain that if they were angry with their brother, they were violating the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment, THEN He said to go therefore and RECONCILE with your brother... He didnt say "so therefore dont worry about keeping the Law"
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
One other thing, do you believe the "soul" of a saved person goes to Heaven at the natural death?
No, I don't. I believe the spirit does.__________________
DHK
Well, then where does the soul go and what about the soul of the beggar in the bossom of Abraham, a type and figure of God? Will you agree that when scripture speaks of the Spirit that sometimes it is speaking of the soul? Surely you do not believe the soul is in the grave?
 
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Claudia_T

New Member
You soul is composed of body plus spirit. Your spirit goes to heaven at death. Your spirit is merely your breath. Your body is in the grave till the second coming of Christ. The Bible says you are "asleep"
 
Claudia,

The soul cannot be sleeping with the body in the grave. 1 Kings declares that when Elisha stretched himself out over the body of the child and prayed for it his soul returned to him. The soul had left the body.

1 Kings 17:21-22 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Mat 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Luk 16:22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;


Greek
ψυχή = spirit
ψυχή = soul
 
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Amy.G

New Member
Diggin in da Word said:
DHK,

Just because the rich man did not love God enough to give up all he had does not in any way imply it is impossible to keep the commandments.
Jesus told us to keep the commandments. Must be possible to keep them.[/QUOTE]
If it were possible to keep them, then we could rely on our own righteousness to enter heaven. But, as DHK pointed out, Jesus made it clear that we can't keep them. We need the righteousness of Christ to be made right before God. That is why we need a savior. The righteousness that exceeds the Pharisees is the righteousness of our Savior, Christ Jesus.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Brother Bob said:
Mat 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Luk 16:22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
First, just from the preceding posts one can see that there is bound to be much disagreement even among fellow believers as to what constitutes the soul and the spirit. Some are dichotomists, and some are trichotomists. I will give my view which I have studied out. But I am not so dogmatic on it that I will not entertain another's point of view. (Doesn't mean I will accept it though :) ) That which I do adamantly reject is the SDA view of soul sleep.
So here are some things to consider.

1. Man is made in the image and likeness of God, and therefore I believe he is made a tripartite being, as is also evidenced by 1Thes. 5:23.
2. Having said that, the Bible often uses the words "soul" and "spirit" interchangeably, so one has to be very careful in the context in which theyare used.
Some examples:
"The soul that sinneth it shall die."
--If the soul never dies, then what does the soul refer to? It is obviously the person that is referred to here.
In Luke 12, the rich man said:
"And I will say to my soul: 'Soul that hast much goods laid up..."
Who was he talking to? Was it really his soul? Could be. It depends on how you define soul. But if the soul lives forever was he talking to something immortal when he was an unsaved man?
These are just two examples. There are plenty more where the context has to be carefully examined.
3. I believe that the spirit is that part of man that can communicate with the supernatural. This is what differentiated man from animals. If you study Genesis one carefully enough you will find that God created living animals with a soul. But only man has a spirit. The spirit communicates to God. A depraved spirit is quite capable of communicating with Satanic forces, such as the witch of Endor was accustomed to doing.
4. However the soul, in the strictest sense of the word, is the seat of the emotions, affections, even the mind. When the body dies, the doctor declares that it is "brain dead." Of course at that time we believe its spirit goes to heaven. The brain is buried with the body. The brain is the organ which kept it functioning. It was the life of the body--its computer, so to speak.
Now in some inextricable way, the Holy Spirit, at the time of conversion, enters the body and joins with our spirit. This also affects our mind. For the Bible says that we ought to have the mind of Christ. However we don't always have the mind of Christ. The battle is in the mind. Paul describes that battle in Romans 7. It is a battle between the sinful nature inherited by Adam, and the new nature given to us by Christ. The mind is the soul--the seat of our affections, and the place of our decision making. The decision that we have to make is: who are we going to yield the members of our body to: our sinful nature or to our new nature?
At death the spirit will leave and go either to heaven or hell.
At death the mind is dead, along with the body.
At the resurrection the body (with its mind in tact) will be resurrected and given a glorified body (and mind) and be reunited with its spiritt.

Heb.4:12 says that the Word is able to divide the soul and spirit. What does that mean. It means that they are separable. The Word speaks to our spirit in a very intimate and spiritual way. But we also use our mind (soul) to understand it intellectually. We need both.
 

Amy.G

New Member
Regarding the rich young ruler...Mark 10:26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, "who then can be saved?", (meaning the young ruler had kept all the commandments, but Jesus said he was still lacking.)
10:27 But Jesus looked at them and said, "with men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible."
It is IMPOSSIBLE for men to achieve the righteousness required by God to enter heaven. Hence, the need for a savior.
So, even if you keep all the commandments to the letter of the "law", you still have sinful thoughts and desires as Jesus made plain when He said "for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." We are sinners inside and out whether by thought or deed.
 
Amy.G said:
If it were possible to keep them, then we could rely on our own righteousness to enter heaven. But, as DHK pointed out, Jesus made it clear that we can't keep them. We need the righteousness of Christ to be made right before God. That is why we need a savior. The righteousness that exceeds the Pharisees is the righteousness of our Savior, Christ Jesus.

Apparently ya only read what ya want to make a false judgment call. I said we can't do it on our own.
 

Claudia_T

New Member
Diggin in da Word said:
Claudia,

The soul cannot be sleeping with the body in the grave. 1 Kings declares that when Elisha stretched himself out over the body of the child and prayed for it his soul returned to him. The soul had left the body.

that just means his breath... the breath came back into his body which means his soul or life came back to him.
 

Amy.G

New Member
Diggin in da Word said:
Amy.G said:
Apparently ya only read what ya want to make a false judgment call. I said we can't do it on our own.
I wasn't making a judgement at all Diggin. :) No, we can't do anything on our own.
"for without Me you can nothing." But, we still have a sin nature within us, therefore, we can still sin. Paul also had this problem with sinning when he didn't want to. Yet, he still did.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Thank you for your response;
"The soul that sinneth it shall die."

When we come to know to do good and do it not we are dead in trespasses in sin.

Who was he talking to? Was it really his soul? Could be. It depends on how you define soul. But if the soul lives forever was he talking to something immortal when he was an unsaved man?
These are just two examples. There are plenty more where the context has to be carefully examined.

You don’t have to be saved to have a soul.

At death the spirit will leave and go either to heaven or hell.
Could this be the soul?


At the resurrection the body (with its mind in tact) will be resurrected and given a glorified body (and mind) and be reunited with its spiritt.

The reunification will take place in the grave where if the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead be in you, it shall also quicken your mortal bodies.

Of course at that time we believe its spirit goes to heaven.
Could this be the soul?

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
It seems that only the word of God is so quick and so powerful and sharp that it can divide the spirit and the soul. I don’t know of anything else that can.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
I have often wondered and still do which of the Ten Commandments can you be guilty of and without repentance and go to Heaven, maybe someone can help me being that Jesus said to keep them and Paul said he would not even known what sin was without them. mystery to me,
 

Brother Bob

New Member
No. Animals have souls, and when they die they won't be going to heaven.
.

They do not have the soul of man which is bonded to the Spirit, for God breathe into man's nostrils and he became a living soul. Never read where God breathe into an animal's nose. I really think it should not be compared to a man's soul.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Brother Bob said:
I have often wondered and still do which of the Ten Commandments can you be guilty of and without repentance and go to Heaven, maybe someone can help me being that Jesus said to keep them and Paul said he would not even known what sin was without them. mystery to me,
You can break them all and still go to heaven. In fact you probably have broken them all. Are you like the Pharisees and know only the letter of the law?
If there is no law; there is no sin.
If there is no speed limit; it is impossible to break the speed limit (just an example).
 

Claudia_T

New Member
other creatures do have a soul

"And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep." Num. 31:28.
"And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." Rev. 16:3.
 
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