Now I Understand! Do You?

[percho]

The deliverer, Jesus Christ, came almost 2000 years ago!

Peter having risen up said unto them, 'Men, brethren, ye know that from former days, God among us did make choice, through my mouth, for the nations to hear the word of the good news, and to believe; and the heart-knowing God did bare them testimony, having given to them the Holy Spirit, even as also to us, and did put no difference also between us and them, by the faith having purified their hearts; Acts 15:7-9 YLT Testimony of Peter and I assume this began with the, even also to us, being the giving of the Holy Spirit beginning on Pentecost, and the, to them, being him being sent to Cornelius. That is people being set apart as a people for the name of God by God.

The testimony of James: James answered, saying, 'Men, brethren, hearken to me; Simeon did declare how at first God did look after to take out of the nations a people for His name, 13,14 Comment. God was taking out of the nations and being given the Spirit. People weren't joining the church but God was adding to and is still adding to the church. They are and the ones to be added tomorrow are those who have the firstfruit of the Spirit of Rom 8:23. They are the ones of the feast of firstfruits. Back to James.

V15 and to this agree the words of the prophets, as it hath been written:

Comment. James says it was written in the prophets that God was going to do this. Take out of the Jews and the nations (Gentiles) a people for his name. Example: Ezek 36:22-27 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Would God do this to all of them at once?
Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: Zion, the church?

That is what is going on on the earth today. Would you not agree that God is still taking out a people for his name?

James continues:

After this. After these things. After this taking out of the nations a people for his name, what?

Verse 16: I will turn back, (I will return in the 11 other English translations in BLB) and I will build again the tabernacle of David, that is fallen down, and its ruins I will build again, and will set it upright --

I will return - vi Fut Act 1 Sg
I will build again - vi Fut Act 1 Sg

These are future after the taking out of a people for his name. It is still future.

What is this future tabernacle of David that is going to be set up?

I believe it will be the kingdom of Christ, the governing body being made up of Christ and those who were given the firstfruit of the Spirit resurrected and or changed eternally incorruptible, to rule over the nations of Israel regathered as in Ezekiel 37:22-24 and the other kingdoms of the world. God will begin the saving of all Israel, the tabernacle of Davis Rom 11:26 and then:

James continues:

V17

that the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and all the nations, upon whom My name hath been called, saith the Lord, who is doing all these things.

Comment: Notice just who the residue of men seek. Christ and the nations upon his name is called.

I will say I believe this will last for 1000 years and that the great tribulation will take place before the I will return. Then death will be destroyed.

V18 'Known from the ages to God are all His works;

 

[Darrell C]

The very reason for the following being when, "a man", not the spirit of a man, is truly born again in order to enter the kingdom of God.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Cor 15:50,51

But each in his own order.

When do you believe the son of David inherited the kingdom of God?

Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 2 Tim 2:8 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. Acts 20:25
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18

We must distinguish between physical resurrection (bodily) and spiritual resurrection (regeneration). That is the context in view here:


1 Corinthians 15:20-24

King James Version (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


The Mystery Paul reveals concerning the Rapture details the Church being raised, not a general resurrection. The "end" follows Christ's Coming.

When Christ inherited the Kingdom is irrelevant to the issue at hand.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I asked for a Scriptural basis. You presented nothing but opinion!

I pointed out that the premise is false...I can offer no Scripture to debate the false premise.

Nevertheless the concept of the pre-trib-rapture hangs on the doctrine that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is an interruption in God's program for Israel.

John F. Walvoord, the preeminent pre-tribulation-dispensational theologian and former president of the Dallas Theological Seminary confesses that the validity of the pre-tribulation ‘rapture’ depends on the definition of the Church [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]. Before presenting Walvoord’s remarks concerning this question it is worthwhile to consider the definition of the Church as presented in The Baptist Faith and Message [Section VI] adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000.



Walvoord writes, regarding the definition of the church, [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]:

If you want to debate the views of men, great. If you want to debate the Rapture of the Church prior to the Tribulation, then we can get into the Scripture.

I am sure you are familiar with the view that there will be a Millennial Kingdom, and a Tribulation prior to that Kingdom. My post presents why the Rapture must take place prior to the Tribulation and it is a fairly simple concept: if everyone is glorified after the judgment at the end of the Tribulation, then it stands to reason, because the Rapture involves all Saints, that everyone on earth would at that point be glorified, meaning there are no physical inhabitants of that Kingdom.

However, if the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation, we have those that come to faith (regenerated) during the Tribulation who survive...left to populate the Kingdom and produce the offspring that rebel against God and join ranks with Satan when he is loosed after his 1000 year incarceration.

I doubt there is a single passage which you are not already familiar with in this discussion, so I just ask that you deal with the concept as presented. If you feel there will be no Millennial Kingdom then my view becomes moot from your perspective.

But you are going to have to deal with the fact that believers are clearly said to be caught up so we are going to have to figure out where and when this event takes place. The glorification of the believers of the Church speaks of bodily resurrection, yet those raised to stand at the Great White Throne, at the least, have among them those that are cast into the Lake of Fire. We cannot correlate that event with the Rapture, in my view.


God bless.

 

[HankD]

Frankly, I have no real problem with the historic premillennial position though I think John 5:28, 29 makes a strong case against it. Historic premillennialism has the correct view of the church and to me that is the important doctrine. I believe progressive dispensationalism is moving in that direction.

Though I disagree with the eschatology of pre-trib-dispensationalism and will debate them on it their view of the church as an interruption in God's program for Israel is what really gets to me. I am surrounded by rapture ready dispensationalists and a great many of them think Israel is still top dog in the eyes of God and we in the Church are somewhere below.

Not this "dispensationalist" OR. Dispensationalism is meant to be a method of interpretation rather than a Systematic Theology from whence all things are derived for the benefit of Israel after the flesh as you have pointed out.

Presently the Abrahamic Covenant is being fulfilled in which ALL the nations of the world are being blessed by the death burial and resurrection of the that chosen seed of Abraham, Jesus of Nazareth, God come in the flesh as promised in Genesis 3:15.

Futuristically we are waiting for His return from heaven to gather His wheat into His barn.

HankD

 

[Darrell C]

Is that like saying eternal life which I believe to be inherited, biblically speaking, is inherited in two manners, first spiritually and then bodily?

Did Jesus born of Mary experience both of these resurrections in inheriting what he is the heir thereof.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:1,2

Is God who appointed Son as heir in those verses to be understood as the Father of the Son or in some other manner? Is eternal life inclusive in the all things of which the above Son is heir of?

What about glory? Did Jesus the Son inherit glory? If Yes, when did he inherit glory?

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Rom 8:17 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21

We who have had the Holy Spirit abundantly poured upon us, have we inherited eternal life or we still just, heirs of the hope of eternal life?

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:6,7

Have we been spiritually resurrected?

Who has inherited and who are still, just heirs?

I would have to distinguish between Christ "inheriting" and we ourselves inheriting, in that while we keep in mind that Christ became flesh for the purpose of the Work He came to do, we still acknowledge that He is God and that the House is His to begin with. In other words, His "inheriting" deals directly with the Incarnation and we have to distinguish between the physical and the Eternal as it relates To Himself.

We obtain eternal life through union with He that is Eternal, rather than eternal life being a substance which can be transferred of "poured into" someone. Eternal life begins the moment one is reconciled to God and brought into union with Him which takes place at the time of salvation.

We look at the promises concerning redemption and see that they were never intended to be exclusive to Israel, though redemption would come through Israel (meaning Christ would come through Israel), but redemption was intended for all men (all families of the earth).

Another "mystery" was Gentile Inclusion, because those of Israel mistakenly held an exclusive view through heritage, and did not regard the promises given to Abraham. Today salvation brings about only one man, that is, those that are one with Christ, rather than two peoples, Jew and Gentile. There is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, only one man that inherits the promises God made in regards to redemption.

We are spiritually resurrected in the New Birth which combines the new creature and the reconciled sinner. It is the indwelling that brings both to being. The eternal indwelling of God is the promise made to the Old Testament Saint and fulfilled in the establishing of the New Covenant.


God bless.

 

[percho]

I would have to distinguish between Christ "inheriting" and we ourselves inheriting, in that while we keep in mind that Christ became flesh for the purpose of the Work He came to do, we still acknowledge that He is God and that the House is His to begin with. In other words, His "inheriting" deals directly with the Incarnation and we have to distinguish between the physical and the Eternal as it relates To Himself.

We obtain eternal life through union with He that is Eternal, rather than eternal life being a substance which can be transferred of "poured into" someone. Eternal life begins the moment one is reconciled to God and brought into union with Him which takes place at the time of salvation.

We look at the promises concerning redemption and see that they were never intended to be exclusive to Israel, though redemption would come through Israel (meaning Christ would come through Israel), but redemption was intended for all men (all families of the earth).

Another "mystery" was Gentile Inclusion, because those of Israel mistakenly held an exclusive view through heritage, and did not regard the promises given to Abraham. Today salvation brings about only one man, that is, those that are one with Christ, rather than two peoples, Jew and Gentile. There is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, only one man that inherits the promises God made in regards to redemption.

We are spiritually resurrected in the New Birth which combines the new creature and the reconciled sinner. It is the indwelling that brings both to being. The eternal indwelling of God is the promise made to the Old Testament Saint and fulfilled in the establishing of the New Covenant.


God bless.

for the wages of the sin, death, Romans 6:23

Just the word, death. Unqualified. Spiritual? Physical? Both?

for in the day of thine eating of it (the sin)-- dying thou dost die.' 930 years later death came in the flesh (physically) to Adam and he was dead.

His only hope is; That in the fullness of time God will send his Son, the Christ, born of woman, sinless, without blemish and without spot, being obedient unto death, the very same death of which he, Adam had died. Be paid the wages of the sin, death.

Jesus the Christ, Holy, conceived in the virgin Mary and brought forth by her did just that. He died, the death, unqualified, for the sin.

What did that do for Adam, what hope was in him being dead, what faith?

Let me answer, none. 1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith, vain; ye are yet in your sins. Unless Jesus is regenerated from the dead, incorruptible, Adam and you and me are without hope.

the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 It is Jesus that be being raised from the dead, incorruptible, that will die no more.

The promise of God made before the world began was, the hope of eternal life. Titus 1:2 Gal 3:16,19,21 tell us that it was Jesus, the Son of God, born of woman, the Christ, the seed of Abraham for whom the promise was made that brings life.

It is Jesus who has inherited the promise of God, where as we who have had the Holy Spirit shed on us abundantly, are still only heirs of not yet inheritors of that promise.

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

It is the Spirit that makes us an heir not yet an inheritor.

When will we inherit eternal life?

 

[OldRegular]

I pointed out that the premise is false...I can offer no Scripture to debate the false premise.




If you want to debate the views of men, great. If you want to debate the Rapture of the Church prior to the Tribulation, then we can get into the Scripture.

That is what I ask for, Scripture. No one has provided any definitive Scripture yet!

I am sure you are familiar with the view that there will be a Millennial Kingdom, and a Tribulation prior to that Kingdom. My post presents why the Rapture must take place prior to the Tribulation and it is a fairly simple concept: if everyone is glorified after the judgment at the end of the Tribulation, then it stands to reason, because the Rapture involves all Saints, that everyone on earth would at that point be glorified, meaning there are no physical inhabitants of that Kingdom.

However, if the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation, we have those that come to faith (regenerated) during the Tribulation who survive...left to populate the Kingdom and produce the offspring that rebel against God and join ranks with Satan when he is loosed after his 1000 year incarceration.

I doubt there is a single passage which you are not already familiar with in this discussion, so I just ask that you deal with the concept as presented. If you feel there will be no Millennial Kingdom then my view becomes moot from your perspective.

But you are going to have to deal with the fact that believers are clearly said to be caught up so we are going to have to figure out where and when this event takes place. The glorification of the believers of the Church speaks of bodily resurrection, yet those raised to stand at the Great White Throne, at the least, have among them those that are cast into the Lake of Fire. We cannot correlate that event with the Rapture, in my view.


God bless.

The simple answer is simply to read my Signature. There will be a general resurrection of all the dead at the Return of Jesus Christ followed by the general judgment {The White Throne Judgment}.

 

[OldRegular]

Not this "dispensationalist" OR. Dispensationalism is meant to be a method of interpretation rather than a Systematic Theology from whence all things are derived for the benefit of Israel after the flesh as you have pointed out.

Presently the Abrahamic Covenant is being fulfilled in which ALL the nations of the world are being blessed by the death burial and resurrection of the that chosen seed of Abraham, Jesus of Nazareth, God come in the flesh as promised in Genesis 3:15.

Futuristically we are waiting for His return from heaven to gather His wheat into His barn.

HankD

And to give the tares their just due!

**********************************

 

[HankD]

And to give the tares their just due!

**********************************

For sure!

HankD

 

[Darrell C]

for the wages of the sin, death, Romans 6:23

Just the word, death. Unqualified. Spiritual? Physical? Both?

for in the day of thine eating of it (the sin)-- dying thou dost die.' 930 years later death came in the flesh (physically) to Adam and he was dead.

His only hope is; That in the fullness of time God will send his Son, the Christ, born of woman, sinless, without blemish and without spot, being obedient unto death, the very same death of which he, Adam had died. Be paid the wages of the sin, death.

Jesus the Christ, Holy, conceived in the virgin Mary and brought forth by her did just that. He died, the death, unqualified, for the sin.

What did that do for Adam, what hope was in him being dead, what faith?

Let me answer, none. 1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith, vain; ye are yet in your sins. Unless Jesus is regenerated from the dead, incorruptible, Adam and you and me are without hope.

the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 It is Jesus that be being raised from the dead, incorruptible, that will die no more.

The promise of God made before the world began was, the hope of eternal life. Titus 1:2 Gal 3:16,19,21 tell us that it was Jesus, the Son of God, born of woman, the Christ, the seed of Abraham for whom the promise was made that brings life.

It is Jesus who has inherited the promise of God, where as we who have had the Holy Spirit shed on us abundantly, are still only heirs of not yet inheritors of that promise.

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

It is the Spirit that makes us an heir not yet an inheritor.

When will we inherit eternal life?

As I said, eternal life begins at salvation and is due to the eternal indwelling of God:


John 5:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


1 John 5:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.




Because the indwelling of God is eternal, we know that life will not cease. Those that are born again are eternally indwelt by God and that union is never-ending:


John 14:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


We are not just heirs...


Romans 8:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


As far as inheritance we are said to be equal with Christ, so whatever status you place upon the Lord you can also attribute to the sons of God.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

That is what I ask for, Scripture. No one has provided any definitive Scripture yet!

We can start here:



Revelation 19:17-21

King James Version (KJV)

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


This takes place at the Return of Christ. In Matthew 25 we see the Sheep and Goat Judgment which describes also Christ's Return.

We see this similar prophecy here:



Ezekiel 39

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.


Now what is interesting is that just as many prophecies describe a Kingdom established (this is promised to Israel (and applies to all)) at some point, which is clearly a physical Kingdom, not an eternal, we see here that there is time duration following this judgment which so closely resembles that seen in Revelation 19:



Ezekiel 39

King James Version (KJV)


9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord God.


The restoration of Israel under New Covenant conditions is simply a staple promise for the Old Testament Saints. Even the Disciples of Christ had this expectation:


Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?




The Lord does not imply the plan has changed, but answers...


7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


In many teachings of the Lord we have instruction concerning this Kingdom. For example:


Matthew 13:47-49

King James Version (KJV)

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,


And while this might cater to a view that has maintained a foundational view of the resurrection of the dead, we cannot make that scenario work with parables such as the Parable of the Talents, where clearly it is the Lord that has gone into a far country, and returns, and the talents of the just are increased.

We would not consider a physical object such as a talent to be imported into the eternal state, would we?

But by far the most convincing statement in Scripture, if we neglect the Promise of God, that is, is seen here:


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

21And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


As I said before, you are probably familiar with most, if not all of this, yet you ask for Scripture. When we look at prophecy collectively, it is obvious that the Kingdom promised to Israel was not set aside, as though the Lord had to change up His Redemptive Plan when Man did not fully cooperate. All Prophecy, both Old and New Testament, is harmonious and will be fulfilled even as it is written. The length of the Millennial Kingdom is given as a thousand year period, and we see that there is a time set for the establishing of this Kingdom:


Daniel 12:7-12

King James Version (KJV)

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


Three and a half years would be 1260 days. That is the time given from the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation. Yet it is 1335 days, and additional 75 days from the Abomination of Desolation which marks the beginning of the Kingdom.

This is that time in which the Kingdom is established, and the Sheep and Goat Judgment takes place. Satan is bound at the end of this period, which gives him roughly 75 days to mount his last campaign, as seen here:


Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Then...comes the Eternal State, in which the new heavens and earth replace that which we currently reside in.

 

[Darrell C]

The simple answer is simply to read my Signature. There will be a general resurrection of all the dead at the Return of Jesus Christ followed by the general judgment {The White Throne Judgment}.

The writer of Hebrews warns against maintaining a foundational (that taught in the Old Testament) understanding of certain doctrines:


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.



A general resurrection was all that was revealed to them, those who had only the basic principles of the Doctrine of Christ. But to us has been revealed more: and the Rapture of the Church is just one of those issues which the Lord has seen fit to enlarge our understanding about. The Old Testament Saint had no clue about the Glorified Saint, nor of the Work of the Cross. Again, the Disciples of Christ maintained a foundational view which is why when told they would be Baptized with the Spirit of God...

...they ask if the Lord will at that time restore the Kingdom unto Israel.

They did not understand that the Kingdom was being established not many days hence. We, unlike Peter, for example, would not have taken up the sword...to prevent Christ from going to the Cross. We would not have yearned for a physical Kingdom as they did, because we understand that Kingdom which is spiritual is far better than any kingdom that might be provided us here.

Swinging back to my original post, seeing then that there is a Kingdom to come which will fulfill the Prophecy and Promise of the Old Testament, we then go on unto that which is complete, which is an understanding that the Lord will catch up the entire Church at some point. If this were in a context of general resurrection...then there is no-one to produce the offspring seen here:


Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


These are the offspring of those that are born again in the Tribulation, who do not perish during the Tribulation. That there will be those that rebel against God is amazing to us, but we take heart at the fact that unlike today...false teachers will hide their heresy:


Zechariah 13

King James Version (KJV)

1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:


Can we make this fit a context of the Eternal State? No.

Can we make it fit a historical context? No.

The Promised Kingdom is coming, yet tribulation precedes. But that does not quell our plea, oh Lord come soon.


God bless.

 

[percho]

As I said, eternal life begins at salvation and is due to the eternal indwelling of God:


John 5:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


1 John 5:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.




Because the indwelling of God is eternal, we know that life will not cease. Those that are born again are eternally indwelt by God and that union is never-ending:


John 14:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


We are not just heirs...


Romans 8:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


As far as inheritance we are said to be equal with Christ, so whatever status you place upon the Lord you can also attribute to the sons of God.


God bless.

Would you agree with?

That we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit of promise.

That that promise is; the hope of eternal life. Titus 1:2 Of which we are presently heirs of and not yet inheritors thereof?

That relative to the above hope this is written. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Romans 8:24,25

That that hope is in verse 23 called; The adoption, the redemption of the body. Which is the same redemption spoken of in Eph 1:14 of which the Holy Spirit of promise is the earnest thereof.

Jesus is the resurrection and the life, meaning the life, eternal comes because of the resurrection, that the resurrection of Jesus being the first to have inherited that kind of life. See Romans 6:9 and Acts 13:34 called the sure mercies of David and that it is relative to Jesus as in Acts 2:31, that David was writing about the Christ, the fruit of his loins, whose soul would be resurrected from Hades, in flesh, that would not see corruption. The resurrection brings about the life.

The redemption of the body.

 

[Darrell C]

Would you agree with?

That we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Yes. I mentioned that in my post.

That that promise is; the hope of eternal life.

Part of the Promise was the Spirit Himself:


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.



Galatians 3:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Ephesians 1:12-14

King James Version (KJV)

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.




We do not hope we will obtain eternal life, we know we already have eternal life, and that is through the New Birth by which we are brought into an unending union with God Himself.

As shown in the passages posted in the last post:


John 5:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



1 John 5:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.



While we are awaiting the culmination of our salvation, that which remains, that is, the redemption of our bodies, we have eternal life through union with God. That is not something we await.

Titus 1:2 Of which we are presently heirs of and not yet inheritors thereof?

Titus 3

King James Version (KJV)


4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


The "hope" looks back to the promise of God which was promised before the world began:


Titus 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;


What that means, my friend is that which God promised, which the world lie in waiting for...has been manifested through Christ.

Our hope lies in the fulfillment of that promise which is realized in Christ, as stated in Titus 3.

We are not waiting to be saved, but have been saved just as Paul expresses it here:

Titus 3

King James Version (KJV)


4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

That relative to the above hope this is written. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Romans 8:24,25

This is a temporal context and relates to the redemption of our bodies.

That does not negate the many positive statements in Scripture that express the fact that we are saved when we believe on Christ.

That that hope is in verse 23 called; The adoption, the redemption of the body. Which is the same redemption spoken of in Eph 1:14 of which the Holy Spirit of promise is the earnest thereof.

I agree, the context refers to the redemption of the body, but that does not preclude salvation already realized in the saint.

See the two issues spoken of:


Romans 8:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Paul makes it clear that if one is not indwelt...he does not belong to God.

Here, Paul makes it clear that if we are indwelt...we will also be raised from the dead like as Christ was. But that does not negate the fact that we are indwelt.

Jesus is the resurrection and the life, meaning the life, eternal comes because of the resurrection, that the resurrection of Jesus being the first to have inherited that kind of life.

We are not saved by being bodily raised, we are saved through faith in Christ. Bodily resurrection is simply one aspect of our salvation, and the only thing we await.

He is the first to have been raised again, but even as Christ did not become a /The Son because He was raised from the dead, even so we do not become sons because we are glorified.

We overcome and become sons of God through faith in Christ. We are saved, we have eternal life, that cannot be denied.


1 John 5

King James Version (KJV)


1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Through faith in Christ we are born again:


John 1:12-13

King James Version (KJV)

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

See Romans 6:9 and Acts 13:34 called the sure mercies of David and that it is relative to Jesus as in Acts 2:31, that David was writing about the Christ, the fruit of his loins, whose soul would be resurrected from Hades, in flesh, that would not see corruption. The resurrection brings about the life.

You do remember that Christ said "I am the Way, Truth, and the Life..."before He was raised from the dead, right?

He came as a Son, not...He became a son:


Hebrews 3:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

The redemption of the body.

Is just one aspect of our salvation, and like as we are not with the Lord currently, but know we will be, even so we shall be raised incorruptible.

Again, we are not saved by bodily resurrection, but saved by Christ. That is the single greatest point that so many miss. There would be far less legalists in the Body of Christ if that one point were fully understood.

Christ made it clear that apart from Him man has no life in him:


John 6:53-54

King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Again we see two distinct issues: obtaining eternal life through faith in Christ's death; resurrection.

Note that those who eat of His flesh and drink of His blood (trust in His Work)...

...have eternal life.

While it is true that at this time no-one could trust in His death, burial, and resurrection, that does not negate the truth spoken by Christ here: trusting in Christ results in eternal life.

In the most notable verse there is we see the same thing:


John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life


Not, "Whosoever believes and is glorified," but those that believe. Salvation begins in the temporal, where we step into the eternal through union with Christ.

No man has The Life apart from Christ. Apart from Him all are...dead.


Ephesians 2:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)


I am not waiting to be made alive, but have been made alive in Christ.

Nor should you be, my friend.


God bless.

 

[percho]

This is a temporal context and relates to the redemption of our bodies.

That does not negate the many positive statements in Scripture that express the fact that we are saved when we believe on Christ.





I agree, the context refers to the redemption of the body, but that does not preclude salvation already realized in the saint.

See the two issues spoken of:


Romans 8:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Paul makes it clear that if one is not indwelt...he does not belong to God.

Here, Paul makes it clear that if we are indwelt...we will also be raised from the dead like as Christ was. But that does not negate the fact that we are indwelt.




We are not saved by being bodily raised, we are saved through faith in Christ. Bodily resurrection is simply one aspect of our salvation, and the only thing we await.

He is the first to have been raised again, but even as Christ did not become a /The Son because He was raised from the dead, even so we do not become sons because we are glorified.

We overcome and become sons of God through faith in Christ. We are saved, we have eternal life, that cannot be denied.


1 John 5

King James Version (KJV)


1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Through faith in Christ we are born again:


John 1:12-13

King James Version (KJV)

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.





You do remember that Christ said "I am the Way, Truth, and the Life..."before He was raised from the dead, right?

He came as a Son, not...He became a son:


Hebrews 3:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.





Is just one aspect of our salvation, and like as we are not with the Lord currently, but know we will be, even so we shall be raised incorruptible.

Again, we are not saved by bodily resurrection, but saved by Christ. That is the single greatest point that so many miss. There would be far less legalists in the Body of Christ if that one point were fully understood.

Christ made it clear that apart from Him man has no life in him:


John 6:53-54

King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Again we see two distinct issues: obtaining eternal life through faith in Christ's death; resurrection.

Note that those who eat of His flesh and drink of His blood (trust in His Work)...

...have eternal life.

While it is true that at this time no-one could trust in His death, burial, and resurrection, that does not negate the truth spoken by Christ here: trusting in Christ results in eternal life.

In the most notable verse there is we see the same thing:


John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life


Not, "Whosoever believes and is glorified," but those that believe. Salvation begins in the temporal, where we step into the eternal through union with Christ.

No man has The Life apart from Christ. Apart from Him all are...dead.


Ephesians 2:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)


I am not waiting to be made alive, but have been made alive in Christ.

Nor should you be, my friend.


God bless.

Did our salvation begin with the death of the sinless Christ and was made complete because God the Father raised Christ from the dead?

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; Gal 1:1
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17

Correct or not? In it's simplest form, we are saved by the death and then the resurrection of the sinless Son of God, born of woman.
We are saved by our sins being laid on Jesus Christ which put him to the death, which should be paid to us. Yet without him being made alive from the dead, that death would have been, for naught.

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:5

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17

Exactly whose regeneration do you believe washed away our sins, thus, saved us? Our's or Jesus's? <not sure I punctuated those correctly.

Did Jesus receive the promise of the Holy Spirit before the Holy Spirit could be shed on us?

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Acts 2:33


and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, Rev 1:5

Did that in bold permit that underlined to take place? Was that in bold necessary for that underlined to happen?

 

[Darrell C]

Did our salvation begin with the death of the sinless Christ and was made complete because God the Father raised Christ from the dead?

As mentioned before, our salvation is not "complete" only in the sense that we await the redemption of our bodies. That will take place at the Rapture, not necessarily death.

However, in regards to man's condition which is one of death, one of separation from God at birth, the primary issue dealt with is our sin. Sin separates us from Holy God, and that is what Christ atoned for in His death. In regards to the penalty of sins that is as complete as it can get:


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


"Perfection" in Hebrews speaks of completion. Here, the context is that of remission of sins. Those sanctified by God through Christ, in regards to sin, have received complete forgiveness because His Sacrifice, unlike the sacrifices of the Levitical Economy...take away sins.

It is His death by which we now have access to God, something the Old Testament Saint was not afforded:


Hebrews 9:11-12 & 15

King James Version (KJV)

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



Hebrews 10:15-20

King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;




Entrance to God was afforded only in shadow, in parable, as Chapter 9 makes clear. The "Holiest" is Heaven itself. The "Veil" we go through is the "flesh of Christ," which is euphemistic of His Death. Entrance to God under the Levitical Economy was through that earthly veil which separated the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies, both of which were earthly and did not see men enter into God's presence in His realm.

Now, let's look at your question again:

Did our salvation begin with the death of the sinless Christ and was made complete because God the Father raised Christ from the dead?

No: our salvation began with the coming of the Comforter, Who convicted us of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Apart from this ministry no man prior to Pentecost fully understood their condition, not even the Disciples of Christ.

The old-school preachers called this the "wooing of the Holy Spirit," and that is a good expression for it. We, being dead in our sins, not having life because we were separated from God from birth, were enlightened by the Comforter and responded to that Ministry. We were shown the truth of our condition, the Remedy, and it was not just a matter of believing, but placing our faith in the One that the Comforter glorified in our hearts, that is...Christ. We placed faith in Christ, that He died to remedy our sin, and in that moment we were born again. This is the process by which we are cleansed by being made new and our relationship with God is restored (lost in Adam) through the indwelling of God. Because of His indwelling it could then be said we had eternal life.

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; Gal 1:1
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17

Correct or not?

Correct of course. It is the context you seek to place it in that remains questionable.

In it's simplest form, we are saved by the death and then the resurrection of the sinless Son of God, born of woman.

We do not separate the Work of Christ, all aspects of His Work remain true.

However, it is clear that it is in His death that we see the remedy for our sin which separates us from God.

This is the initial truth the Comforter brings to our awareness. This leads to faith in His resurrection.

The Gospel entails the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. That is what saves, not the resurrection of the Saint.

We are saved by our sins being laid on Jesus Christ which put him to the death, which should be paid to us.

Agreed. However, the enlightening of the Comforter goes out to every man, and while all will believe (even those that reject Him), not all place their faith in Him. The sins of all men were laid on Christ, but not all will receive Christ through the Ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Note those who in full understanding reject Christ:


2 Peter 2:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


All will be ministered to by the Comforter, but there is a division among those who believe and reject Christ, and those that believe and receive Christ.

Yet without him being made alive from the dead, that death would have been, for naught.

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17

This is like saying "Yet without tires on the car, our mode of transportation would be for naught."

We don't separate the aspects of the Gospel of Jesus Christ any more than we rationally separates functional parts of an automobile.

The context above refers to those questioning Christ's resurrection, the emphasis is not how it pertains to the bodily resurrection of believers (glorification).

Glorification is a certainty for the believer:


Romans 8:29-30

King James Version (KJV)

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

This is a temporal context dealing with the growth process we go through when we are saved.

It does not negate the fact that we have been washed (cleansed) through regeneration.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:5

Here we see an eternal context: the cleansing is complete, as it is in Hebrews.

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17

The point is "How can you question whether or not Christ was raised from the dead?"

Paul will go on to teach that believers will be raised as He was. In no way does it teach that we are not saved or do not have eternal life already, which would conflict with many passages that teach we are and do.

Exactly whose regeneration do you believe washed away our sins, thus, saved us? Our's or Jesus's?

Christ was not regenerated, my friend.

This would imply separation from God which is the condition of man, not the Son of Man. If Christ was in need of regeneration He could not, and would not have been suitable to die in man's stead.

Think about what you are saying.

<not sure I punctuated those correctly.

You did fine.

Did Jesus receive the promise of the Holy Spirit before the Holy Spirit could be shed on us?

Christ is the Giver of the Promise, not One Who receives the Promise.

This has God receiving God.

This is the point of John 14 and 16, which details that Christ must return from whence He came else the Promised Spirit could not come. This is the Promise spoken of here:


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


This could be arranged so: "Wait for the Promise of the Father, which was not given through John's baptism, but is...the Baptism with the Holy Ghost."

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Acts 2:33

And in view is the moving of the Spirit of God among the people.

Not Christ receiving the Spirit of Promise, the Comforter.

What did they see? What did they hear?

and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, Rev 1:5

Did that in bold permit that underlined to take place?

The underlined defines itself: our sins were washed in His blood (death).

His resurrection allowed for that which would follow, namely, the imparting of the Spirit Who began a Ministry He did not perform under Old Testament Economies.

Was that in bold necessary for that underlined to happen?

Yes: we do not separate the aspects of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Percho, I would just ask that you give a statement as to why you believe the Lord needed to be born again. This might be an aspect of the discussion that may bring a focus to some relevant issues.

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

The writer of Hebrews warns against maintaining a foundational (that taught in the Old Testament) understanding of certain doctrines:


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.



A general resurrection was all that was revealed to them, those who had only the basic principles of the Doctrine of Christ.

Could you present Scripture showing where the General Resurrection was revealed to those Christians to whom the Epistle to the Hebrews was written?

But to us has been revealed more: and the Rapture of the Church is just one of those issues which the Lord has seen fit to enlarge our understanding about.

Then please show me that Scripture. No one has been able to do so yet!

You are saying the General resurrection was revealed to certain Christians and different resurrections were revealed to other Christians. So I am to understand that all the confusion and disruption in the churches caused by pre-trib-dispensational-doctrine is caused by differing revelations by God? I would remind you what Scripture says about God: 1 Corinthians 14:33. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

The Old Testament Saint had no clue about the Glorified Saint, nor of the Work of the Cross.

So the Apostle Paul was wrong when he wrote: Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So Job was wrong when he wrote:

Job 19:25-27
25. For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27. Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Again, the Disciples of Christ maintained a foundational view which is why when told they would be Baptized with the Spirit of God...

...they ask if the Lord will at that time restore the Kingdom unto Israel.

And Jesus Christ did not respond to their question. Furthermore, there is no place in the New Testament where the following judgment on Israel is revoked:

Matthew 21:42-45
42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

And then there is a significant part of Matthew 24 where Jesus Christ gets explicit about the Judgment of the Jews!

None of the many Scripture you have posted demonstrate in any way a pre-trib-snatching-away of the Church.

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