Now I Understand! Do You?

[OldRegular]

Exactly whose regeneration do you believe washed away our sins, thus, saved us? Our's or Jesus's? <not sure I punctuated those correctly.

percho,

You need to clarify what you mean by the above statement. Jesus Christ did not need to be regenerated since He was without sin. The statement above implies that he did.

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[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
The writer of Hebrews warns against maintaining a foundational (that taught in the Old Testament) understanding of certain doctrines:


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.



A general resurrection was all that was revealed to them, those who had only the basic principles of the Doctrine of Christ.

Could you present Scripture showing where the General Resurrection was revealed to those Christians to whom the Epistle to the Hebrews was written?

First, it must be understood that before Pentecost...there were no Christians.

We could debate that the Disciples of Christ were Christians in the sense that they followed Christ for three years, however, they were not born again believers Baptized with Holy Spirit, Who is the Promised Spirit associated with the New Covenant established by Christ and finalized by the sending of the Comforter.

Until one has the Spirit of God...they do not belong to God. This applies to the Disciples of Christ as well. They do not get an honorary title of Christ because they were disciples during the Lord's earthly ministry.

Once you understand that you can begin to place everyone in their proper context.

In regards to the First Principles of the Doctrine of Resurrection, you ask me to show you where to find them in the Old Testament then post one of the very few we have:



Job 19:25-27

25. For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27. Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.


We can also look to Daniel:


Daniel 12

King James Version (KJV)

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


While found in the Gospels, we still place this in an Old Testament Economy:


John 11:21-25

King James Version (KJV)

21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


This shows that Martha had an understanding of the foundational doctrine of resurrection of the dead. While we have very little in the Old Testament that speaks of this doctrine...

...that is the point, lol.

The Old Testament is limited in what is known about the resurrection, but we can see that it was not something that was unknown to them.


Acts 23:5-8

King James Version (KJV)

5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.

8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.


The Pharisees believed in a general resurrection. Yet when Paul speaks about the Rapture he reveals...a Mystery:


1 Corinthians 15:50-52

King James Version (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Note that first this is a previously unrevealed truth which cannot describe the foundational doctrine of the resurrection of the dead. Secondly we see that all will be changed, which cannot describe the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs because at that time only those Saints that die in the Tribulation are raised.

This precludes the Rapture occurring at the end of the Tribulation because, as I have said all along...

...that leaves no-one to populate the Kingdom.

We can't have the entire Church raised at the end, along with the Tribulation Martyrs, because that would mean all would be in their glorified state, which leaves only the possibility of unbelievers living through the Tribulation, which Christ and Scripture teaches will not happen, because nothing that offends will enter into that Kingdom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
But to us has been revealed more: and the Rapture of the Church is just one of those issues which the Lord has seen fit to enlarge our understanding about.

Then please show me that Scripture. No one has been able to do so yet!

I am sure you are familiar with distinctly Rapture passages, you can probably quote all of them by heart.

That is why I direct your attention to passages and concepts perhaps you are not familiar with.

Consider the Rapture of the Two Witnesses:


Revelation 11:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


Based on this Rapture occurrence I place Mid-Trib Rapturists as exceedingly more plausible in their view than Post-Trib Rapturists. It is possible that the Church is Raptured at this time, but unlikely, and the view stands really on this passage alone.

But it cannot be excluded as a possibility as the Post-Trib view can be.

The most likely timing of the Rapture would be, because the Church is Raptured as a whole, prior to the beginning of the Tribulation.

Here is a Rapture passage I am sure you are familiar with:


Revelation 3:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


The hour in view will come upon all the world.

Hasn't happened yet.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

You are saying the General resurrection was revealed to certain Christians and different resurrections were revealed to other Christians.

I'm not saying that at all. The Old Testament Saints were not Christians.

One is not a Christian unless they follow Christ and are indwelt by Christ. That did not begin until Pentecost.

What I am saying, what I have said, is that the Old Testament only provided foundational principles for the doctrines listed in Hebrews.

The writer tells those he rebukes, those he states need to be taught again those foundational principles when they should be teachers of the more complete Doctrine of Christ, that they are to go on to that which perfect (complete) and they are not...

...to lay again the foundational principles of the doctrine of Christ.

And resurrection is just one of those foundational principles.

The Old Testament Saint (apart from the Sadducee and non-believer) understood that there would be a resurrection, but what they did not have knowledge of was the Church or the Rapture of the Church. Another Mystery was Gentile Inclusion, brought about by Israel's rejection of the Promised Messiah.

But in reality the Gospel of Christ was a mystery to all:


Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


I would suggest a study of "mystery," it will bring a focus on what the Old Testament Saint knew, and what he did not.

Here is another example of the truth that the Gospel was hidden from men, revealed only in New Testament/Covenant times:



1 Corinthians 2:6-9

King James Version (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


Many use this passage as though it were a reference to how marvelous Heaven will be, that we simply cannot fathom the depth of the wonder. That is certainly true...but that is not what this is speaking of.

It is speaking of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The fact is that no-one knew or understood what the Work of Christ would accomplish. Satan would have personally headed up a security detail to make sure no harm to Christ would have come if he had known what Christ's death would accomplish.


1 Corinthians 2:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


The revelation of the Mystery of Christ began when the Comforter began revealing these truths to men.

And the Rapture is just one of those mysteries.

So I am to understand that all the confusion and disruption in the churches caused by pre-trib-dispensational-doctrine

Let's be fair: the confusion and disruption is caused primarily by those opposed to the Rapture, lol.

When you can show confusion in my doctrine and that I am causing disruption then perhaps you might be able to say this, but I can tell you now you will not be able to.

I do not hold enmity in my heart towards my A-Mil, post and mid-trib brethren, this is just one issue in which we are found in disagreement on. There are other issues, particularly soteriological issues, which must take precedence over this issue. But I will say that our eschatological views play a major role in how we stand soteriologically.

And let's face it...it's a great discussion. It will force one to expand their understanding on a number of topics. All of these doctrines, naturally, are so closely interwoven that to err in one area we see great impact on other areas.

is caused by differing revelations by God?

Not at all, God will bring our doctrine into the harmony already existing in the Scriptures. If we will lay aside preconceptions and analyze Scripture in a more thorough manner.

Of all the positions, only a futurist premillennial and Pre-Trib position stands apart without the need of reconciling conflicting issues.

One such conflict, for example, in the post-trib view is precisely the issue I have called to your attention from the outset: who re-populates the Millennial Kingdom if all unbelievers are destroyed and all Saints are glorified.

It just won't hold up to scrutiny, and brings conflict which cannot be resolved unless one does exactly what the Church did historically...depart from a pre-millennial view and adopt an a-millennial view. And that view is fraught with conflict. You cannot reasonably reconcile the prophecy of Scripture with a historical view.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I would remind you what Scripture says about God: 1 Corinthians 14:33. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Thanks. But, you have ascribed something to myself that is not applicable.

The only confusion we see is in the doctrine of those whose doctrine is in conflict with Scripture, which cannot be reconciled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
The Old Testament Saint had no clue about the Glorified Saint, nor of the Work of the Cross.

So the Apostle Paul was wrong when he wrote: Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

What has this to do with believers being glorified?

Even after seeing Christ glorified...people did not believe it, much less have prior knowledge of it.

So Job was wrong when he wrote:

Job 19:25-27
25. For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27. Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Of course not, but Job had an understanding parallel to that of Martha. They knew there would be a resurrection, but like those that deny there is even going to be a Rapture (which is the worst position one can take as it denies the very statement of Scripture), and like many Jews today, they still maintain a foundational doctrine of resurrection for which they are commanded to depart from, and to go on to the completion found in Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Again, the Disciples of Christ maintained a foundational view which is why when told they would be Baptized with the Spirit of God...

...they ask if the Lord will at that time restore the Kingdom unto Israel.

And Jesus Christ did not respond to their question.

He did:


Acts 1:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



The times and the season for the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel the Father's power.

The Lord is saying, in other words..."Don't worry about that right now, can't you see I am telling you that in a few days you are going to be Baptized with the Holy Spirit?"


This is indeed one of the most inappropriate question to be found in all of history. It might be likened to someone saying "Go to the bank and wait there until tomorrow and you will receive a billion dollars," and the response being "Sir, will you at this time give us some spare change?"

Except being baptized with the Spirit can in now way be likened to even all the wealth in the world, just as Rome being thrown down and Israel regaining their former glory are insignificant to the Kingdom established at Pentecost. "What will a man give in exchange for his soul" is a good parallel to the vast difference between what is desired and what is promised here. The question is inappropriate and reveals that the disciples are still clueless and temporal in their expectation.

Have you given thought to the truth that when Peter took up the sword in the Garden of Gethsemane...that he was fighting to keep Christ from doing the very thing He told them He had come to do?

Think about that, brother. Then try to place Peter in a context of understanding the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even just a few days before the Spirit is sent. And thankfully it is not just Peter, this time, shown to be without understanding:


Acts 1:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Furthermore, there is no place in the New Testament where the following judgment on Israel is revoked:

Matthew 21:42-45
42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

I agree, Israel, on a National basis, rejected Christ and has come under judgment for that:


Romans 9:30-33

King James Version (KJV)

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Chapters 9-11 detail Israel's unbelief, but that does not preclude salvation among those of Israel, but brings again the Mystery of Gentile Inclusion into focus. Both Israel and Gentiles are viewed as groups in these passages, not individuals.

And then there is a significant part of Matthew 24 where Jesus Christ gets explicit about the Judgment of the Jews!

I agree, but included in that discourse is the judgment of believers and unbelievers (whether Jew or Gentile), which is eschatological in nature. It is true there is a focus on Israel and Jerusalem, but that does not preclude the eschatological implications.

And if you consider that at this time there is much which is not being revealed to them, and cannot be revealed until the appropriate time (namely when the Comforter is sent), then you will begin to see that the teaching does not reveal mysteries before their time.

None of the many Scripture you have posted demonstrate in any way a pre-trib-snatching-away of the Church.

So far I would agree with you. I have not until this post presented Rapture specific passages, but have instead tried to get you to consider some of the issues that have to be examined when we try to bring Scripture into a harmonic balance.

Where we stand concerning Resurrection plays a significant role in our understanding of the Rapture because the Rapture is first and foremost a resurrection. We see this type of resurrection, one in which believers are made alive again in a manner which makes them suitable for Heaven (meaning they are glorified), and this type has to be distinguished from bodily resurrection such as that of Lazarus. We assume that the Tribulation Martyrs are glorified because they are said to reign with Christ for the duration of the Millennial Kingdom. We know the Two Witnesses are glorified because they are caught up to Heaven as the Church is said to be, the point being that entrance to Heaven can be accomplished in two ways: death, in which our spirits are immediately with the Lord (Who is in Heaven), and glorification, in which those who are resurrected in the Rapture, though they have not died, are immediately glorified and caught up to Heaven.

When the Two Witnesses are raptured, there is no mention of anyone else being raptured. When the Tribulation Martyrs are resurrected, we see they presumably have a role with earthly affairs, and there is no mention of anyone else is mentioned (primarily the dead, who are not resurrected until a thousand years later to stand before the Great White Throne judgment).

And when we begin to balance all of these details, as I said, a futurist pre-millennial view is the one view that is going to remain without need of reconciliation and be without conflict.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You are saying the General resurrection was revealed to certain Christians and different resurrections were revealed to other Christians.

I had an additional thought on this statement which I thought I would separate from the posts above.

Consider that if you embrace a view that Old Testament Saints were Christians in a New Testament and New Covenant sense, then what is being stated is that today one can be a Christian without understanding the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Think about that.

Abraham had no specific revelation that Christ died in his stead that he might be reconciled to God.

Noah, Moses, David, and every great name of faith we could possibly imagine...

...died having offered up an animal sacrifice as the last act of seeking atonement available to them.

And Scripture is clear:


Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


But, we who have had the Mystery of the Gospel revealed to us by the Spirit of God can understand fully that our sins have been perfectly, completely, and eternally...taken away:


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


It was and still is the will of God that men be set apart unto Himself, and that their sins be taken away. Again, the great people of faith in the Old Testament all died, and when they died...Christ had not yet atoned for their sins, and the last effort in atonement for them would have been the sacrifice of animals, an incomplete method provided by God as a temporary covering of sin for them.

They did not receive the Promises:


Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

First, it must be understood that before Pentecost...there were no Christians.

You might argue that before Pentecost there was no Church but you would be wrong. But to argue that there were no Christians before Pentecost is foolish. Were the eleven Apostles "true believers"? Were the five hundred brethern that the Apostle Paul speaks about in 1 Corinthians 15:6 "true believers". Paul calls them brethern. These were all Christians.

The teaching that God has two peoples, the Jews an earthly people and the Church a heavenly people is a grievous, unbiblical teaching. The Apostle Paul tells us in Galatians that: Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Every person who has ever been saved or ever will be saved is saved because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Therefore, they are all members of the same body, the body of Jesus Christ.

We could debate that the Disciples of Christ were Christians in the sense that they followed Christ for three years, however, they were not born again believers Baptized with Holy Spirit, Who is the Promised Spirit associated with the New Covenant established by Christ and finalized by the sending of the Comforter.

Is the following to be understood literally?

John 20:22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

I assume that you realize that occurred before Pentecost!

Until one has the Spirit of God...they do not belong to God. This applies to the Disciples of Christ as well. They do not get an honorary title of Christ because they were disciples during the Lord's earthly ministry.

Did Abraham belong to God?

Did Moses belong to God?

Did David belong to God?

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[OldRegular]

Thanks. But, you have ascribed something to myself that is not applicable.

The only confusion we see is in the doctrine of those whose doctrine is in conflict with Scripture, which cannot be reconciled.

The pre-trib-dispensational-doctrines invented by John Nelson Darby and foisted on the Biblical illiterate people of this country by the Scofield Reference Bible cannot be reconciled with Scripture and that is the truth.

You have yet to present a single Verse of Scripture that definitively addresses the questions in the OP.

What is the Scriptural Basis for:

1. The Rapture of the Church prior to a Great Seven Year Tribulation?

2. The doctrine that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is a "Parenthesis" or Intercalation in God's Program for Israel!

The truth is that there is no Scriptural basis for either of the above inventions of John Nelson Darby!

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[OldRegular]

I had an additional thought on this statement which I thought I would separate from the posts above.

Abraham had no specific revelation that Christ died in his stead that he might be reconciled to God.

Poor old ignorant Apostle Paul.:tear: Pity he did not have you around to advise him instead of God!:laugh:

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Now I know some who hold the Hyper Dispensational doctrine believe there was more than one Gospel but that is heresy!

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[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
First, it must be understood that before Pentecost...there were no Christians.

You might argue that before Pentecost there was no Church but you would be wrong.

I would argue before Pentecost there was no Church and believe I can show that without controversy:


Matthew 16:16-19

King James Version (KJV)

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Now the debate that has to be settled first is what is the "rock" Christ will build His Church upon?

I will suggest it is Christ...not Peter. The "Rock" the Church is built upon is the confession that Peter makes:



16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.


No-one enters into the Body apart from confessing Christ. Think about it brother.

Furthermore:


Matthew 7:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


Luke 6:48

King James Version (KJV)

48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.


Romans 9:33

King James Version (KJV)

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


1 Corinthians 10:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


1 Peter 2:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;



While these passages speak for themselves I would just add that the imagery of the "Rock" points to Christ...always. Let's look at our key verse again:


Matthew 16:16-19

King James Version (KJV)

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


The Lord does not say "...upon this rock I am building my Church," but that He will.

And the simplest fact to understand is that prior to Christ's death not even the disciples understood the Gospel of Christ, and in fact, as I have mentioned many times to you before (to which you have not commented the first time to my knowledge)...they were unbelieving and in opposition to the Gospel, though they believed in Christ after the manner of their own expectation.

And that expectation was temporal.

They understood prophecy concerning Christ to involve a restoration of the Kingdom to Israel with the Son of David presiding over the throne. And for good reason...that is precisely what prophecy states will occur.

But not yet.

But to argue that there were no Christians before Pentecost is foolish.

It is scriptural and indisputable.

Show me the first disciple that believed the Gospel. When the Lord told them He was going to Jerusalem there was no acceptation, but opposition:


Matthew 16:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Peter then, in an attempt to make the Messiah he believed in fit his expectation, takes up the sword in Gethsemane:


John 18:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?


The Lord identifies Peter's motive.

It's right there, my friend.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Were the eleven Apostles "true believers"?

In the capacity of the revelation they had available to them, yes. But that does not make them Christians, those who have believed on the Risen Christ.

According to the Gospel of Christ they were not believers in a New Testament/Covenant sense. Note carefully the Lord's appraisal of their confession of belief:


John 16:28-32

King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Were the five hundred brethern that the Apostle Paul speaks about in 1 Corinthians 15:6 "true believers".

Likewise as with the Disciples, in the capacity of the revelation they had available to them. The period between the Resurrection and Pentecost shows an emerging belief in the disciples yet we can see on the very day of Christ's Ascension that they were still awaiting the Promise of God:


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


To be a Christian in the New Covenant sense one has to have received that which Christ promises in John 14 and 16, namely the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the eternal sense, not the external, which is the ministry He performed in the Old Testament. The Old Testament eras end on the Day of Pentecost when the New Covenant and it's promises are realized.

Paul calls them brethern. These were all Christians.

Sorry, no, they were Old Testament Saints until indwelt by God.

The teaching that God has two peoples, the Jews an earthly people and the Church a heavenly people is a grievous, unbiblical teaching.

Not sure why you keep bringing this into our conversations. I have never endorsed a two people theology and in fact reject it outright. I believe I have stated directly in our conversations that there is One People of God, though we distinguish between the revelation and Ministries God has performed throughout Man's history.

If it was not you I was speaking with, then let me settle it now, as to my position concerning how many peoples of God there are:


John 10:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.


The error of Israel in large part was expectancy of relationship with God through heritage, which expectation the Lord clearly refuted. That error is taken up by more people than we might care to think. Many will forget Paul's teaching that Gentiles outside of the Law...fulfilled the Law. God has provided three primary means for men to acknowledge God, the witness of Creation, the internal witness given to every man, and direct revelation. All men will be judged according to their response to these forms of revelation and clearly one did not have to be of Israel to obey that which God revealed to them. Jimmy DeYoung relates an encounter on the Sea of Galilee with a Jewish man that asked him if he realized that the first Christian was a Jew. Jimmy responded, "That is true, but...the first Jew was a Gentile."

Those that come under obedience to God become the people of God. We keep that in the context of the era of revelation of the time, though. We do not see Abraham, for instance, believing on Jesus Christ as His Savior. He believed God was, and that was true, but, he cannot properly be called a New Covenant Christian, nor was He eternally indwelt by God, nor were his sins forgiven in Christ.

He died having offered up an animal sacrifice as the last effort of atonement for sin, but that animal was a temporary covering until Christ should come, redeem his sins, and bring him to a state of completion in regards to remission and reconciliation.

The same is true of all Old Testament Saints.

The writer of Hebrews makes it clear that they did not receive the promise that Christ told the Dsciples to await in Jerusalem on the Day of Ascension.

The Apostle Paul tells us in Galatians that: Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Note the word "foreseeing," brother.

That makes it clear...it had not happened yet.

Gentile Inclusion was a mystery until revealed through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Every person who has ever been saved or ever will be saved is saved because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

That is correct. However, it is not until one is redeemed that they are "saved" in a New Testament/Covenant sense.

They had the same Security every born again believer has, in the sense that their eternal destiny was sealed through their faith in God. That does not negate the fact that their sins still had to be atoned through Christ.

Therefore, they are all members of the same body, the body of Jesus Christ.

They are now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
We could debate that the Disciples of Christ were Christians in the sense that they followed Christ for three years, however, they were not born again believers Baptized with Holy Spirit, Who is the Promised Spirit associated with the New Covenant established by Christ and finalized by the sending of the Comforter.

Is the following to be understood literally?

John 20:22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Yes of course. In view here is the Lord stating, basically, "When the Spirit comes...receive Him."

You cannot see this as the Disciples receiving the Promised Spirit, the Comforter, for the simple reason that the Lord makes it clear He could not come until the Lord had returned to Heaven:


John 16:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


Now consider, the same truth can be applied here:


John 15

King James Version (KJV)

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


Now I ask you: did the disciples abide in Christ?

Again, the Lord makes it clear...they will not:


John 16:31-32

King James Version (KJV)

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

I assume that you realize that occurred before Pentecost!

I do. Doesn't change the facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Until one has the Spirit of God...they do not belong to God. This applies to the Disciples of Christ as well. They do not get an honorary title of Christ because they were disciples during the Lord's earthly ministry.

Did Abraham belong to God?

Did Moses belong to God?

Did David belong to God?

Yes, in the Old Testament/Covenants sense.

Doesn't make them indwelt born again Christians.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Old Regular, as to the other two posts they are irrelevant to what has so far been discussed. Darby and "other gospels" have no bearing in that which I have conveyed, and would just ask you address those issues.

Have a great Lord's Day.

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Old Regular, as to the other two posts they are irrelevant to what has so far been discussed. Darby and "other gospels" have no bearing in that which I have conveyed, and would just ask you address those issues.

Have a great Lord's Day.

God bless.

All my posts have been in response to remarks you made, remarks which I quoted in the recommended manner!!

You might try addressing the two questions posed in the OP!

**********************************************************************************************

 

[Darrell C]

All my posts have been in response to remarks you made, remarks which I quoted in the recommended manner!!

You might try addressing the two questions posed in the OP!

**********************************************************************************************

Let's see if that is true:

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Thanks. But, you have ascribed something to myself that is not applicable.

The only confusion we see is in the doctrine of those whose doctrine is in conflict with Scripture, which cannot be reconciled.

The pre-trib-dispensational-doctrines invented by John Nelson Darby and foisted on the Biblical illiterate people of this country by the Scofield Reference Bible cannot be reconciled with Scripture and that is the truth.

You have yet to present a single Verse of Scripture that definitively addresses the questions in the OP.


Quote:
What is the Scriptural Basis for:

1. The Rapture of the Church prior to a Great Seven Year Tribulation?

2. The doctrine that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is a "Parenthesis" or Intercalation in God's Program for Israel!

The truth is that there is no Scriptural basis for either of the above inventions of John Nelson Darby!

Would you please present the first statement I have made where I mention Darby or his doctrine?

As to my response to the OP, that is found in post# 36, in which I address the false premise used as a denial of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. You further expand the false premise by, rather than addressing what I have said...going on to quote other men (Walvoord) and why they are in error.

I am very sorry for you that you do not have the opportunity to debate with the men you find so much fault in. Clearly you are not interested in discussing what I have to say, so as I said in the other thread...I leave you to your campaign against these men.

God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

You might argue that before Pentecost there was no Church but you would be wrong. But to argue that there were no Christians before Pentecost is foolish. Were the eleven Apostles "true believers"? Were the five hundred brethern that the Apostle Paul speaks about in 1 Corinthians 15:6 "true believers". Paul calls them brethern. These were all Christians.

The teaching that God has two peoples, the Jews an earthly people and the Church a heavenly people is a grievous, unbiblical teaching. The Apostle Paul tells us in Galatians that: Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Every person who has ever been saved or ever will be saved is saved because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Therefore, they are all members of the same body, the body of Jesus Christ.



Is the following to be understood literally?

John 20:22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

I assume that you realize that occurred before Pentecost!



Did Abraham belong to God?

Did Moses belong to God?

Did David belong to God?

*******************************

The old Covenant believers were saved, but not part of the Body of christ that is the Church, as THAT group started at pentacost proper!

 

[OldRegular]

The old Covenant believers were saved, but not part of the Body of christ that is the Church, as THAT group started at pentacost proper!

You still don't understand!