NT six literal days

[BobRyan]

This has been true of cults, modernists, those who do not believe the Bible, and others with unorthodox beliefs of the Bible. Let me give you some examples. It happens with a person or group of people who first have a pre-conceived idea (usually erroneous). Then they find a starting point in Scripture to advance that idea. Then they use that Scripture in an allegorical way--symbolically, poetically, allegorically, figuratively--anything but literally as it is supposed to be taken.

1. The SDA's do not believe in the eternal damnation of the wicked. The story of the rich man and Lazarus teaches the eternal damnation very vividly. This story is very much different than any parable, and should not be taken as a parable. Yet the SDA's claim it to be a parable. Because it is a parable they now can claim that eternal punishment is not really eternal punishment and Jesus really did nnot mean that because it was only a parable not to be taken literally in that aspect.

2. The amillennialist doesn't believe in a thousand year millennial reigin of Christ. Even thought the term "thousand years" is mentioned five times in Revelation 20, the amilllennialist will claim that it doesn't mean a thousand years because the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols and therefore the phrase "thousand years" can be taken symbolically as well. It is not literal.

3. Thus in the same way if the Genesis one is poetical then it doesn't have to mean six literal days, for it is only poetry. It is not literal. One day can mean a thousand years.

While I agree with you on the literal six days I do not agree with the example given.

#1. There is s difference between a literary device like Chiastic verse and parables. While it is true that we are not to force parables to "Walk on all fours" it is NOT TRUE that truth (theology, doctrine etc) can not be actually valid if presented in chiastic format. The chiasm is merely there to add emphasis and meaning at an even higher level than the literal truth presented. It is like a 3-D picture instead of just 2-D it does not take anything away from the 2-D features -- it only ADDs.

Having said that I DO agree with you that those attacking Genesis try to hide that attack under a "this is nothing more than a hymn about the easter bunny that has some good morals to it" disguise.

#2. in the SDA and Luke 16 example - it would have worked much better for your illustration IF IT WERE TRUE that only SDAs discovered that "Abraham in charge of all dead saints" is a parable. But as was pointed out about a dozen times we SEE well known Bible scholars that DO believe in eternal hell - ALSO ADMITTING that Luke 16 is a parable!!

We find that those who try to make that parable "walk on all fours" have gone to such an extreme THAT EVEN the bright thinking men of their OWN CAMP cry foul - saying that they have gone wayyyy toooo far.

Why dilute your own position with that kind of argument sir??

This topic of a six day creation is one of those times when you are actually correct - why spoil it??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

Bob do you have your "favorite" "pet" "colored" texts saved in a file so that all you have to do is just copy and paste them everytime someone brings up a certain subject? :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

Hint: Exodus 20 is not a Chiasm -- so the "debate over poetry" should die it's wn death if scripture is read.

hint: EXEGESIS of the text SHOWS that the days ARE in fact real literal days that correspond to our present week.



"FOR IN SIX DAYS the LORD MADE the HEAVENs and the EARTH the SEA and all that is in them".

The SAME SIX days that we are to work in --

Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2
]Genesis 2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed[/b], and all their hosts.
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.[/b]


It is left as an exercise for the reader to SEE What the Bible has said CLEARLY in these pointed texts EVEN if some others would flee these texts calling them "keyholes to be avoided".

 

[BobRyan]

Let us look "At the details" in these texts and PRETEND for a second that this is NOT the way for God to say that He actually DID create the World in SIX Days...

"FOR IN SIX DAYS the LORD MADE the HEAVENs and the EARTH the SEA and all that is in them".

The SAME SIX days that we are to work in --

Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2
]Genesis 2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed[/b], and all their hosts.
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.[/b]

Question for the objective thinking reader - if this is NOT the way to say that He created the world in six days -- then WHAT WOULD have been the right way to say it?

(The desperate corner into which the argument against six days of creation must flee becomes incredibly obvious at this point)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Scripture is the Word of God. Scripture is not God. Saying Scripture must be perfect is saying Scripture must be God.

Scripture is "Called the WORD of GOD" because "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit SPOKE FROM GOD"... which is why Peter argues "it is NOT a matter of one person's own interpretation".

See - exegesis NOT eisegeting anything you feel like inserting into the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

There is no evidence, and none has been presented, except the findings of one man, whose work has been discredited.

Who is this "one" man that you keep referring to?

 

[BobRyan]

Bob do you have your "favorite" "pet" "colored" texts saved in a file so that all you have to do is just copy and paste them everytime someone brings up a certain subject? :laugh:

Each time I engage in one of these debates "those files get refined".

But in this case - I already posted this 5 pages ago -- when the discussion wanders farther and farther away from the text that so directly debunks the opposition - I simply bring it back to the forefront.

Notice how often those opposing the Word of God in the two texts quoted above "slip back" into saying in essence "God never says anything about this being in 6 days it matters not whether you think of it that way or not". AS IF we had not just READ the texts given above -- SO I KEEP POSTING what those who oppose the texts -- claim does not EXIST!!

 

[DHK]

Who is this "one" man that you keep referring to?

C. John Collins, was the one that was orignially mentioned as believing in this poetical theory.

 

[J. Jump]

C. John Collins, was the one that was orignially mentioned as believing in this poetical theory.

Well that's what I thought you were going to say, but I just wanted to make sure that this was who you were talking about before I made my next statement.

I found his book and it was written last year. So I can see why you would say that this is novel and new. However you also said this:

There is no evidence, and none has been presented, except the findings of one man, whose work has been discredited.

Which this statement is not true. I actually heard of this idea that Genesis contains poetry back in the early 90s from a visiting guest speaker in a philosophy class. He was a Jewish Rabbi. So this idea has been around long before C. John Collins wrote his book.

Again it doesn't make a hill of beans amount of difference whether it is or isn't poetry. People are going to abuse the text of Scripture to serve their errant purposes no matter what the literary style is.

The Truth of Genesis is Truth whether it's poetry or not.

I'm not a Hebrew scholar so I can't say with 100% accuracy whether it is or is not. It wouldn't surpise me if it was, but it wouldn't change anything if its not. Truth is Truth is Truth is Truth.

 

[J. Jump]

I was just giving you a hard time Bob. I get a kick out of your color coded Scripture postings . This is an area that we actually agree on, at least it being a literal six days. There's hope for you yet Bob :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

I was just giving you a hard time Bob. I get a kick out of your color coded Scripture postings . This is an area that we actually agree on, at least it being a literal six days. There's hope for you yet Bob :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

My rule is to always agree with those I debate against "on something".

I am glad we can do that here.

I think my methods and approach on all topics are pretty much the same as you have noted. The only exception to that rule is when a thread is "really" in bold defense of atheist darwinism - which this thread is not.

In that singular case I go right to the heart of the issue being "Christian vs non-Christian" in the belief systems that are contrasted.

By contrast -- Even on the RCC threads I do not argue that they are arguing in favor of atheism.

People on a debate thread sometimes think that they gain something by closing their eyes and saying "I don't care - I am still not changing" as if they have stopped the benefit of the thread. But for me it only helps point out where my argument has resulted in their hitting a brick wall. I then try to refine the file that did that - so that they can get to that wall even sooner the next time around.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

NOBODY HAS DENIED THAT GOD CREATED. IF I'M WRONG, SHOW ME THE POST WHERE SOMEONE DENIED THAT GOD CREATED.

Perhaps you are right. Nobody denied that God created. However, consider:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]

Aborigine Creation

There was a time when everything was still. All the spirits of the earth were asleep, or almost all. The great Father of All Spirits was the only one awake. Gently he awoke the Sun Mother. As she opened her eyes, a warm ray of light spread out towards the sleeping earth. The Father of All Spirits said to the Sun Mother, "Mother, I have work for you. Go down to the Earth and awake the sleeping spirits. Give them forms." The Sun Mother glided down to Earth, which was bare at the time and began to walk in all directions and everywhere she walked plants grew. After returning to the field where she had begun her work the Mother rested, well pleased with herself. The Father of All Spirits came and saw her work, but instructed her to go into the caves and wake the spirits.

[/FONT]

http://www.waldorfhomeschoolers.com/creation.htm

The Aboriginals don't deny Creation either.
What is important is the facts of creation; the details of creation. The fact or detail that God created the heaven and the earth in six 24 hour days is important. It is not enough just to say: "God created." The Aboriginals, Muslims, Egyptians, Akkadians, etc. all believe that God created. What are the details of God's creation? This is what this debate is about, and those details are very important. The first eleven chapters of Genesis set the foundation for the rest of the Bible.

 

[DHK]

Well that's what I thought you were going to say, but I just wanted to make sure that this was who you were talking about before I made my next statement.

I found his book and it was written last year. So I can see why you would say that this is novel and new. However you also said this:

Which this statement is not true. I actually heard of this idea that Genesis contains poetry back in the early 90s from a visiting guest speaker in a philosophy class. He was a Jewish Rabbi. So this idea has been around long before C. John Collins wrote his book.

As far as I am concerned the statement is true enough, since if the evidence is there, it hasn't been presented. That is my point. There hasn't been any links, URL's, nothing! No evidence, except for this one man's opinion, and to his opinion I provided a link which debunked his theory. So for all those that clamor and make all the noise saying that Gen.1 is poetry (as the saying goes) "put up or shut up!" In other words provide your evidence not your anecdotes and meaningless opinions. It is not for me to prove it is not poetry. That is not how this works. It is for the person making the assertion that it is poetry to prove that it is. I trust that logic is realized.

 

[J. Jump]

The fact or detail that God created the heaven and the earth in six 24 hour days is important. It is not enough just to say: "God created."

Actually it is enough, because that's all God said about the matter. Why should we say more than He did?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. He doesn't tell us how long it took.

 

[J. Jump]

It is not for me to prove it is not poetry. That is not how this works. It is for the person making the assertion that it is poetry to prove that it is.

This is such a lame argument. I understand why folks like you use it, but it really is lame. Where is it written that the poetry believers are the ones that have to "prove" anything. Why is it that you folks that use this lame line "never" have to "prove" anything. You have done nothing to "prove" your case except to say that you don't believe it and there are some other scholars that believe like you or you believe that them, but that is hardly a "proven" case.

 

[DHK]

Actually it is enough, because that's all God said about the matter. Why should we say more than He did?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. He doesn't tell us how long it took.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

As Bob has been repeatedly quoting, God has told us over and over again how long it took him to create all things--six literal days. And he rested the seventh. One day was no different than the other. The Sabbath testifies to similarity of each other day.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
--Like the Sabbath, the first day was also a 24 hour day. In Hebrew the word "yom" (day) used in conjunction with morning and evening never means anything else but a 24 hour day.

 

[BobRyan]

Let us suppose for an instant that these texts are NOT the way for God to say that HE ACTUALLY created all life on this world in six days...

"FOR IN SIX DAYS the LORD MADE the HEAVENs and the EARTH the SEA and all that is in them".

The SAME SIX days that we are to work in --

Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2
]Genesis 2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed[/b], and all their hosts.
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.[/b]

in that case the question to be answered by the objective thinking reader is "what WOULD have been the right way for God to say that He actually created the world in Six days"...

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

This is such a lame argument. I understand why folks like you use it, but it really is lame. Where is it written that the poetry believers are the ones that have to "prove" anything. Why is it that you folks that use this lame line "never" have to "prove" anything. You have done nothing to "prove" your case except to say that you don't believe it and there are some other scholars that believe like you or you believe that them, but that is hardly a "proven" case.

It is basic logic. When one makes an assertion he must have the evidence to back it up. The one defending doesn't have to prove the assertion for his opponent. How does that make sense? If you believe it is poetry, why should I have to prove that it is poetry for you? The onus is on you. The default is that it is prose. That is the standard orthodox position which doesn't have to be proved. I don't have to prove my opponent's position. That is his job.

 

[BobRyan]

When you consider the fact of the SIX day statement God MAKES in His Word -- then the only REAL argument left is

"Ok so God said it was created in SIX days -- what is the REAL significance of simply ignoring him on that point and believing atheist darwinist stories over what God said ... can't I still believe the rest of the Bible and the Gospel just as they are while ignoring God on that single detail in favor of atheist darwinism??"

In essence that is the only REAL point to be explored.

 

[J. Jump]

As Bob has been repeatedly quoting, God has told us over and over again how long it took him to create all things--six literal days.

And obviously like Bob you haven't read the verse very carefully that you keep referring to, which actually proves my point :laugh:.

What does the text SAY?

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

What does Genesis 1:1 SAY?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Those aren't the same things. God chose the words He chose for a reason.