Nuts For Arminians To Crack

[Squire Robertsson]

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[atpollard]

The thing about the way you are describing it, is it is almost like you are saying that God drags people AGAINST their will.

I am not sure that OUR will really matters. God did not stop and ask Lazarus if he WANTED to be raised from the dead, nor Saul if he WANTED to become an Apostle. God works all things first and foremost for HIS Glory (which is not unreasonable since God is the Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Eternal, Creator ... after all.)

Fortunately for us, God is also Holy, so His Glory is also for our god (as his sheep, chosen, elect, Children). Ephesians 2:1-10 describes us starting out as dead. The dead don't get a vote, outside forces simply act on them and they passively cooperate ... which is why Ephesians 2 goes on to describe everything that God has done and lists nothing that the former corpse did.

I guess that I am saying that, with all due respect to Revmitchell, God drags spiritual corpses to the Son to make them alive, because that is the only way those corpses are going to get to the Son.

I believe that John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." applies to everyone that has an excuse for not following Jesus, and everyone that God has drawn. A rebuff for one and assurance for the other.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not sure that OUR will really matters. God did not stop and ask Lazarus if he WANTED to be raised from the dead, nor Saul if he WANTED to become an Apostle. God works all things first and foremost for HIS Glory (which is not unreasonable since God is the Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Eternal, Creator ... after all.)

Fortunately for us, God is also Holy, so His Glory is also for our god (as his sheep, chosen, elect, Children). Ephesians 2:1-10 describes us starting out as dead. The dead don't get a vote, outside forces simply act on them and they passively cooperate ... which is why Ephesians 2 goes on to describe everything that God has done and lists nothing that the former corpse did.

I guess that I am saying that, with all due respect to Revmitchell, God drags spiritual corpses to the Son to make them alive, because that is the only way those corpses are going to get to the Son.

I believe that John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." applies to everyone that has an excuse for not following Jesus, and everyone that God has drawn. A rebuff for one and assurance for the other.

I just find it hard to understand why folks rebel so hard against the concept of God being the cause and source of our salvation!

 

[tyndale1946]

I just find it hard to understand why folks rebel so hard against the concept of God being the cause and source of our salvation!

You I and a few others have seen it all on here... Is this really a surprise my brother?... Brother Glen

 

[glad4mercy]

I am not sure that OUR will really matters. God did not stop and ask Lazarus if he WANTED to be raised from the dead, nor Saul if he WANTED to become an Apostle. God works all things first and foremost for HIS Glory (which is not unreasonable since God is the Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Eternal, Creator ... after all.)

Fortunately for us, God is also Holy, so His Glory is also for our god (as his sheep, chosen, elect, Children). Ephesians 2:1-10 describes us starting out as dead. The dead don't get a vote, outside forces simply act on them and they passively cooperate ... which is why Ephesians 2 goes on to describe everything that God has done and lists nothing that the former corpse did.

I guess that I am saying that, with all due respect to Revmitchell, God drags spiritual corpses to the Son to make them alive, because that is the only way those corpses are going to get to the Son.

I believe that John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." applies to everyone that has an excuse for not following Jesus, and everyone that God has drawn. A rebuff for one and assurance for the other.

 

[glad4mercy]

First of all, spiritual death means relational seperation from God. Secondly, I was not arguing against God raising up dead people. I was talking about the fact that God does not coerce us/drag us. Those who come to Christ come willingly, because a work of Grace makes them willing. Thirdly, we are saved to love God, but love is not coerced. Coerced love is not love.

God does a work of Grace that convinces and convicts, awakens and softens, enlightens and illuminates, quickens and vilvifies. This results in us coming WILLINGLY and in a life of love for the one who first loved us

 

[glad4mercy]

I just find it hard to understand why folks rebel so hard against the concept of God being the cause and source of our salvation!

If you are referring to me, this a strawman and a complete misrepresentation of what I said. Saying that love is not coerced and saying that God is not the cause and source of our salvation are literally light years apart.

It seems like you folks never proceed beyond regeneration. I'm not talking arguing against regeneration, of a spiritually dead man being raised to life. I am talking about the fact that God does not save people against their wills. Rather, He makes them willing through a work of Grace that proceeds their faith.

And love is never coerced. And God would NOT be glorified in coercing people to love Him against their will. We love God freely because we have been made free to love BY HIS GRACE ALONE

 

[glad4mercy]

Calvin- True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant.

C.H Spurgeon- For if we read our Bibles rightly, we understand that men, by nature, are not willing; for there is a text you are extremely fond of which we do not think belongs to you, and which says, "Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life." "No man can come unto me, except the Father which has sent me, draw him." If you would remember that, we think, even though the text does not teach it, you might at least have some respect for the doctrine; but it says, God's people shall be willing in the day of God's power; and if we read it as plain English people, we look from this text that there must be a work of his grace making men willing in the day of God's power.

 

[tyndale1946]

Calvin- True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant.

C.H Spurgeon- For if we read our Bibles rightly, we understand that men, by nature, are not willing; for there is a text you are extremely fond of which we do not think belongs to you, and which says, "Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life." "No man can come unto me, except the Father which has sent me, draw him." If you would remember that, we think, even though the text does not teach it, you might at least have some respect for the doctrine; but it says, God's people shall be willing in the day of God's power; and if we read it as plain English people, we look from this text that there must be a work of his grace making men willing in the day of God's power.

So does God ask permission to change the heart?... Excuse me you rebellious sinner can I change your heart?... Or does God have in his Sovereign Power to change the heart if and when he wants too?... Brother Glen

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

 

[atpollard]

I was talking about the fact that God does not coerce us/drag us. Those who come to Christ come willingly, because a work of Grace makes them willing. Thirdly, we are saved to love God, but love is not coerced. Coerced love is not love.

Do you have scripture to support these opinions?

For example, where does it say that God does not coerce or drag us?
Moses didn’t want to confront Pharaoh, but God coerced him to go to Egypt.
Jonah didn’t want to go to Nineveh, but God coerced him.

 

[tyndale1946]

Do you have scripture to support these opinions?

For example, where does it say that God does not coerce or drag us?
Moses didn’t want to confront Pharaoh, but God coerced him to go to Egypt.
Jonah didn’t want to go to Nineveh, but God coerced him.

I agree just take a trip to the Potter House... Does not the potter have power over the clay?... I guess some brethren will never get it... And I been here a long time... Oh well!... Brother Glen

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

 

[atpollard]

I agree just take a trip to the Potter House... Does not the potter have power over the clay?... I guess some brethren will never get it... Oh well!... Brother Glen

We need to tread lightly, because @glad4mercy isn’t 100% wrong either. Salvation isn’t like a cosmic rape with God simply using his overwhelming power to take what he wants by force. I mean, in one sense it is (God is God) but salvation is not an act of violence or a military conquest. Speaking for myself, I would describe it as an irresistible seduction. God pursued me, wooed me and irresistibly seduced me ... until I completely yielded to him.

Which for a god-hating nihilist atheist gang member, was no small feat.

 

[utilyan]

I agree just take a trip to the Potter House... Does not the potter have power over the clay?... I guess some brethren will never get it... And I been here a long time... Oh well!... Brother Glen

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

None of it insist God will not have mercy on anyone, some, or all.

If I think God is a jerk i'll believe he will show mercy on none.

If I think God is half a jerk i'll believe he will show mercy on some.

If I think God is the most kindness and most loving being I'll believe he will be merciful to all.

Jesus Christ answered this mystery for me.


There are folks here who are "shocked" and "surprised" God would save anyone.

Others are not surprised by his complete mercy at all.

 

[atpollard]

Others are not surprised by his complete mercy at all.

Except for Esau ... no mercy for Esau. (And maybe the Son of Perdition ... calling someone the son of perdition suggests a lack of mercy).

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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