Obama Endorses Homosexuality

[Dragoon68]

Then the answer is simple: Have a zero tolerance for such activity in the military. If you attempt to engage in any homosexual activity in the course of military service, you're out. The question, howoever, seems to be whether it's necessary to bar anyone who itentifies himsef as homosexual as a prerequisite. There's a difference between being gay and engaging in gay bahavior. Certainly, most men in the military are heterosexual, but do not engage in heterosexual acts while in service. It would not be unreasonable, therefore, to expect of a gay man who enlists to refrain from gay activity during his service.

Zero tolerance is the right attitude! But a person who professes to be a homosexual should be excluded from the beginning! Why should we wait until it is manifested by an act of homosexuality when the person states their intention in advance? By the same common sense we routinely disqualify people in many venues for varies reasons based upon their answers to relevant questions. It's pampering to provide exceptions for homosexuals.

 

[Johnv]

Zero tolerance is the right attitude! But a person who professes to be a homosexual should be excluded from the beginning!

You're presuming that a person who professes to be gay is going to engage in sexual activity. Yet when a person professes to be straight, there is no presumption that such a person is going to engage in sexual activity. Therein lies the disparity.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

How did you learn that the Spartans were homosexuals? Was it in a revisionist history book - or a recent movie - designed to make us think homosexuality doesn't cause a problem? I know homosexuality is not new - no sinful behavior is - but I seriously doubt that the Spartans were a homosexual lot and also the fierce warriors they were as a unit.

Every incidence - not very many but a few - of homosexuality I encountered in the military caused some sort of problem with unit effectiveness. It is pathetic in every respect and deserves no tolerance whatsoever.

I'm a history buff. And there have been documents showing the compliants of women who were married to spartans that would not sleep and inpregnate them. Part of their culture was to have a mentor take control of training the young spartan to make him a beter warrior as part of the Agoge

At around age 12 the boys would enter into an institutionalized relationship with a young adult male Spartan. Plutarch described this form of Spartan pederasty wherein somewhat older warriors would engage promising youths in a long-lasting relationship with a pedagogic motive. The boy was expected to request the relationship which was seen as a method to pass on knowledge and maintain loyalty on the battlefield. Some classical writers, including Xenophon in his "Polity of the Lacedaemonians", wrote that Spartans did not engage in sexual relations with adolescents, believing it akin to indulging in their own children.

Note deminishing populace is what did the spartans in. Not revisionist history but the truth.

 

[Dragoon68]

You're presuming that a person who professes to be gay is going to engage in sexual activity. Yet when a person professes to be straight, there is no presumption that such a person is going to engage in sexual activity. Therein lies the disparity.

That's not common sense! We'd be screening for potential homosexual conduct - not the absence of it. It's similar to screening for other defects in a person's character for a security clearance, a job application, a credit application, or even a church membership application. We ask about things that are of relevant concern. Homosexual conduct is undesirable in the military so we want to know if a person is professing to be one. Certainly, if they don't it doesn't mean they might not, but that can't be determined in advance. If they are one they are very likely to be one. Common sense - not legalism - is needed in this world!

 

[Dragoon68]

I'm a history buff. And there have been documents showing the compliants of women who were married to spartans that would not sleep and inpregnate them. Part of their culture was to have a mentor take control of training the young spartan to make him a beter warrior as part of the Agoge Note deminishing populace is what did the spartans in. Not revisionist history but the truth.

That's hardly conclusive that all Spartans were homosexuals! Either way it doesn't add any credibility to homosexuality being okay in the military. It is not - it is a problem for good order and discipline.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That's hardly conclusive that all Spartans were homosexuals! Either way it doesn't add any credibility to homosexuality being okay in the military. It is not - it is a problem for good order and discipline.

Only if good order and discipline are ignored. A persons sexuality won't necissarily cause that problem. Note I never said all spartans were homosexual but certainly it was prevelant in their society and that society was a ordered disciplined one.
England in the 1800 had a well ordered military and there were many homosexuals in that military. Sexual orientation is irrelevant to discipline. History has shown that Homosexuals are just as disciplined as anyone else.
Problem is as I've stated that the kind of Homosexual that will now enlist are those who are in their nature anarchist. That is more of a problem hopefully military training will seperate that type of person whether homosexual or not out.

 

[Revmitchell]

Only if good order and discipline are ignored. A persons sexuality won't necissarily cause that problem. Note I never said all spartans were homosexual but certainly it was prevelant in their society and that society was a ordered disciplined one.
England in the 1800 had a well ordered military and there were many homosexuals in that military. Sexual orientation is irrelevant to discipline. History has shown that Homosexuals are just as disciplined as anyone else.
Problem is as I've stated that the kind of Homosexual that will now enlist are those who are in their nature anarchist. That is more of a problem hopefully military training will seperate that type of person whether homosexual or not out.

What is the best intellectual response to this.............




Baloney. Ever see a homosexual parade? When you let them loose they get real loose. They are arrogant, proud and in your face.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What is the best intellectual response to this.............




Baloney. Ever see a homosexual parade? When you let them loose they get real loose. They are arrogant, proud and in your face.

I've given historical fact about Homosexuals and the military. Spartans to the English. Both had effective militaries and the Homosexuals were a part of that. So its not "Baloney". It just is.
Now with regard to the "homosexual parade"; I've seen them and a type of homosexual is involved with these "parades". As I've already mentioned this type of Homosexual is an anarchist. They are Anti-establishment. These will cause problems for the military as I've pointed out. However, they don't represent the whole population of homosexual just one radical segment of it. My hope is that basic weeds out these crazies whether they are homosexual or dope smoking hetrosexuals.

 

[Revmitchell]

I've given historical fact about Homosexuals and the military. Spartans to the English. Both had effective militaries and the Homosexuals were a part of that. So its not "Baloney". It just is.
Now with regard to the "homosexual parade"; I've seen them and a type of homosexual is involved with these "parades". As I've already mentioned this type of Homosexual is an anarchist. They are Anti-establishment. These will cause problems for the military as I've pointed out. However, they don't represent the whole population of homosexual just one radical segment of it. My hope is that basic weeds out these crazies whether they are homosexual or dope smoking hetrosexuals.

You have presented claims of homosexual history and even if they be true it says nothing about what is going on now and here in this time frame. Nothing you have presented proves the attitudes of people today. Another time, another land, another culture, another people. What they did is not evidence of what people today will do.

They represent the majority. Have you ever spent much time with them. I have and you can be sure it is prevalent. And any homosexual is a "crazy" and needs to be weeded out. Oh my how our current culture has become desensitized and hearts seared. Very, very sad.

 

[Johnv]

What they did is not evidence of what people today will do.

Yet it is your opinion that a "homsexual parade" is typical of how most homosexuals behave? Such a parade is no more evidence on what a gay man will do in the military than what a gay man did in the Spartan military. What IS evidence is what most gay men who are in the military currently do. They most often do nothing, and serve with honor and distinction. I don't particularly oppose "dont' ask don't tell", but nothing evidentiary has been demonstrated in this thread so far that suggests lifting the policy will be a detriment to the military.

 

[Dragoon68]

Only if good order and discipline are ignored. A persons sexuality won't necissarily cause that problem. Note I never said all spartans were homosexual but certainly it was prevelant in their society and that society was a ordered disciplined one.
England in the 1800 had a well ordered military and there were many homosexuals in that military. Sexual orientation is irrelevant to discipline. History has shown that Homosexuals are just as disciplined as anyone else.
Problem is as I've stated that the kind of Homosexual that will now enlist are those who are in their nature anarchist. That is more of a problem hopefully military training will seperate that type of person whether homosexual or not out.

Homosexuality is a direct threat to discipline and good order in the military. We knew that for a long time and, now suddenly, some want us to believe we had it all wrong and that's not really that bad. That's baloney! I don't need to study the history of the Spartans to know that. Frankly, I think the history that many study is based largely upon the imagination and speculation of people with an agenda other than the truth. The point now often seems to be to point out all possible weakness and scandal in anything otherwise somewhat credible. Can we not be content to know that the Spartans were fierce warriors with speculating they were homosexuals? I can rely on Biblical history that describes this terrible sin and its consequences as well as my own experiences in the best military in the world to know full well its impact. It has no place in the military. For that matter there are several other things that don't as well but this one is blatantly obvious to most anyone who's honorably service in our armed forces. Homosexuality is a grave threat to our entire society and we should demonstrate no tolerance for it. The problem is that we don't have enough Godly men in our society to take hold of the problem. What we have is a horde of people who would rather make excuses for it and many other sins as well. What should bother us is that we have a President who thinks it's okay and who is pandering to this evil minority of our society for political gain at the expense of enforcing a minimum standard of morality that was so clearly understood just a generation ago. He is ignoring the Biblical purpose of civil government and his duty as one of the chief magistrates of that government. We, as owners of this government, are culpable by our complacency and advocacy of such garbage.

 

[Johnv]

Homosexuality is a direct threat to discipline and good order in the military.

No, homosexual activity is a direct threat to discipline and good order in the military. In the same way that there's a difference between being simply straight and engagin in heterosexual activity, there's a difference between simply being gay, and engaging in homosexual activity. No one in this thread so far endorses homosexual activity in the military, and I think we all would abhor any such endorsement.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You have presented claims of homosexual history and even if they be true it says nothing about what is going on now and here in this time frame. Nothing you have presented proves the attitudes of people today. Another time, another land, another culture, another people. What they did is not evidence of what people today will do.

They represent the majority. Have you ever spent much time with them. I have and you can be sure it is prevalent. And any homosexual is a "crazy" and needs to be weeded out. Oh my how our current culture has become desensitized and hearts seared. Very, very sad.

I don't disagree with you about our society being desensitized. I do. However, there are many classes of Homosexual. Some are very disciplined and are contributors to society. The only way you know them from a Heterosexual is to ask. Apart from that you wouldn't know. Then there are the extreme drag queen, homosexual parade type that gets most of the publicity. These I would not encourage into military service. Just like I wouldn't encourage a dope smoking, porn watching, liberal to join the military either.
I personally want congress to keep out of it. Homosexuals should keep stuff t themselves and not advertize and the less I know the better. However, the politicians don't see it that way.

 

[Revmitchell]

I don't disagree with you about our society being desensitized. I do. However, there are many classes of Homosexual. Some are very disciplined and are contributors to society. The only way you know them from a Heterosexual is to ask. Apart from that you wouldn't know. Then there are the extreme drag queen, homosexual parade type that gets most of the publicity. These I would not encourage into military service. Just like I wouldn't encourage a dope smoking, porn watching, liberal to join the military either.
I personally want congress to keep out of it. Homosexuals should keep stuff t themselves and not advertize and the less I know the better. However, the politicians don't see it that way.

I want congress to stay out of as much as possible. This is the Military and therefore the Fed. Congress needs to be in it at every level.

 

[Dragoon68]

No, homosexual activity is a direct threat to discipline and good order in the military. In the same way that there's a difference between being simply straight and engagin in heterosexual activity, there's a difference between simply being gay, and engaging in homosexual activity. No one in this thread so far endorses homosexual activity in the military, and I think we all would abhor any such endorsement.

What is the threat - the theft or the thief, the rape or the rapist, the murder or the murderer? It is the homosexual that possess the threat of the "homosexual activity"! Think, brother, because all Godly man should stand against this sinfulness!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Homosexuality is a direct threat to discipline and good order in the military. We knew that for a long time and, now suddenly, some want us to believe we had it all wrong and that's not really that bad. That's baloney! I don't need to study the history of the Spartans to know that. Frankly, I think the history that many study is based largely upon the imagination and speculation of people with an agenda other than the truth. The point now often seems to be to point out all possible weakness and scandal in anything otherwise somewhat credible. Can we not be content to know that the Spartans were fierce warriors with speculating they were homosexuals? I can rely on Biblical history that describes this terrible sin and its consequences as well as my own experiences in the best military in the world to know full well its impact. It has no place in the military. For that matter there are several other things that don't as well but this one is blatantly obvious to most anyone who's honorably service in our armed forces. Homosexuality is a grave threat to our entire society and we should demonstrate no tolerance for it. The problem is that we don't have enough Godly men in our society to take hold of the problem. What we have is a horde of people who would rather make excuses for it and many other sins as well. What should bother us is that we have a President who thinks it's okay and who is pandering to this evil minority of our society for political gain at the expense of enforcing a minimum standard of morality that was so clearly understood just a generation ago. He is ignoring the Biblical purpose of civil government and his duty as one of the chief magistrates of that government. We, as owners of this government, are culpable by our complacency and advocacy of such garbage.

Your statement has no basis in History or fact. Homosexuals have played a significant role in the military throughout history. I don't advocate for homosexuals in our military but I won't falsely catagorize them just because they are homosexual. After all wasn't Alexander the great a bisexual?

 

[Dragoon68]

... However, there are many classes of Homosexual. Some are very disciplined and are contributors to society. ...

This is some more of that rationalization thinking that we need to run away from! Homosexuality is always wrong! This is like arguing that there are "clean" robbers, rapists, murderers, etc. and "dirty" robbers, rapists, murderers, etc. when it is the same.

It is like the joke, which in its entirety is not appropriate for quotation, that ends with the punch line: "Madam, you've already established what you are. We're just arguing about the price."

 

[Dragoon68]

Your statement has no basis in History or fact. Homosexuals have played a significant role in the military throughout history. I don't advocate for homosexuals in our military but I won't falsely catagorize them just because they are homosexual. After all wasn't Alexander the great a bisexual?

My comments are based on fact! Greatness at anything does not justify the sinfulness of homosexuality nor does the exception implied by some "redeeming" qualify justify ignoring the vastly predominant reality that homosexuals are a problem for discipline and good order in the military. We need not be so desperate for their services to lower our standards.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

My comments are based on fact! Greatness at anything does not justify the sinfulness of homosexuality nor does the exception implied by some "redeeming" qualify justify ignoring the vastly predominant reality that homosexuals are a problem for discipline and good order in the military. We need not be so desperate for their services to lower our standards.

give me your "sources" of fact. The majority of heterosexuals a lowlife loosers who hate God do you say keep all heterosexuals out of the military? Your logic doesn't follow.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This is some more of that rationalization thinking that we need to run away from! Homosexuality is always wrong! This is like arguing that there are "clean" robbers, rapists, murderers, etc. and "dirty" robbers, rapists, murderers, etc. when it is the same.

It is like the joke, which in its entirety is not appropriate for quotation, that ends with the punch line: "Madam, you've already established what you are. We're just arguing about the price."

Homosexuality is always wrong morally. I agree its wrong. Not everyone adheres to my morality. Fornication, adultery is also wrong you going to kick these people out as well?