"Obama will be tested".....Biden

[carpro]

Can't argue that, but Reaganomics sure didn't do anything for the masses.

That is an ignorant assertion.

Would you like to examine the economic record of his immediate predecessor?

My suggestion is to not go there. You won't do too well.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

The thing is, at least to me, is Biden is saying we won't like what Obama does, but dissent won't do any good, so put a lid on it.

Anybody else get that message ?

 

[LeBuick]

That is an ignorant assertion.

Would you like to examine the economic record of his immediate predecessor?

My suggestion is to not go there. You won't do too well.

Not a problem, the masses I am speaking of were the victims of Reagan's welfare reform. And he did make huge "reforms" to welfare.

 

[LeBuick]

Boy, this sure seems naive. The masses first gained the opportunity to amass wealth during the 80s because of Reagan's policies.

Not where I lived, we heard this was going on but we weren't seeing this wealth on our street.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Not where I lived, we heard this was going on but we weren't seeing this wealth on our street.

You probably were. Hardly anyone didn't. But time causes things to fade, and better times since (built off of those times) have jaded people. When you look at income and wealth, the 80s were good years. A lot of millionaires were made in the 80s.

 

[LeBuick]

You probably were. Hardly anyone didn't. But time causes things to fade, and better times since (built off of those times) have jaded people. When you look at income and wealth, the 80s were good years. A lot of millionaires were made in the 80s.

Not one of the millionaire came from my street.

In the 80's, our Church lost our building and my Dad made about $275/wk as a full time pastor. I joined the Military in 12/80 and sent the most of my check home in the form of an allotment just to help the family get by. I didn't think so highly of the 80's even though we were one of the fortunate families on our block.

In fact, it was under Reagan that the steel mills and factories in the northern states began closing. Those old factories stand today as Smokey ruins of the Reagan era. It might have been good where you stood since small towns prefer less government but those were very tough times where I was standing.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Not one of the millionaire came from my street.

But your street doesn't have a lot of people on it compared to the rest of America. None of them came from my street either. But that's not really the point. Overall, the 80s were very good to people financially.

In the 80's, our Church lost our building and my Dad made about $275/wk as a full time pastor. I joined the Military in 12/80 and sent the most of my check home in the form of an allotment just to help the family get by. I didn't think so highly of the 80's even though we were one of the fortunate families on our block.

But that's not Reagan's fault. Isolated instances make good emotional stories but don't really help to determine the truth of a matter. $275 a week was not a bad wage in those days. My grandfather retired from the banking industory in 1976 after 20+ years with the company and was making about that much. By today's standards 275 a week sounds horrible, but back then it was a different story. I am not saying your family had it easy or was rolling in dough. But again pointing out that individual stories can be marshalled against anything. But we need to look at the overall picture.

In fact, it was under Reagan that the steel mills and factories in the northern states began closing. Those old factories stand today as Smokey ruins of the Reagan era. It might have been good where you stood since small towns prefer less government but those were very tough times where I was standing.

I can see some of those steel mills from my windows, and I can certainly see hte dust of the ones who were not so fortunate as to shut down. It fills my house daily. But the steel industry problems started long before Reagan. That started in the early 70s. Furthermore, that is a more complex issue than "Reagan." So I think a little less of a simplistic approach is certainly in order in evaluating these kinds of issues.

 

[LeBuick]

But your street doesn't have a lot of people on it compared to the rest of America. None of them came from my street either. But that's not really the point. Overall, the 80s were very good to people financially.

We have people doing financially well today. Even in Sept when 159K people lost their jobs there were a lot of people "financially well". This doesn't discount the overall picture and doesn't mean times aren't bad.

Furthermore, that is a more complex issue than "Reagan." So I think a little less of a simplistic approach is certainly in order in evaluating these kinds of issues.

Fair enough and I agree... :thumbs:

 

[Bible-boy]

Not one of the millionaire came from my street.

In the 80's, our Church lost our building and my Dad made about $275/wk as a full time pastor. I joined the Military in 12/80 and sent the most of my check home in the form of an allotment just to help the family get by. I didn't think so highly of the 80's even though we were one of the fortunate families on our block.

In fact, it was under Reagan that the steel mills and factories in the northern states began closing. Those old factories stand today as Smokey ruins of the Reagan era. It might have been good where you stood since small towns prefer less government but those were very tough times where I was standing.

Sorry LeBuick,

But you are falling prey to the fallacy of Division. There are two varieties of this fallacy. You are falling into the second type.

The second type of division fallacy is committed when one argues from the attributes of a collection of elements to the attributes of the elements themselves. Source: Copi & Cohen, Introduction to Logic, 10th ed., 1994, pg. 197.

To argue that because the people on your street during the 80s suffered difficult financial times, therefore each, or even any other, Americans must have also suffered difficult financial times during the 80s would be to commit the second type of division fallacy. It is true that some people did suffer difficult financial times in America during the 80s, but it is false to say that the 80s, as a whole, were difficult financial times for all Americans. Basically, your experience of those times is too limited to justify making the generalization for the experience of the nation as a whole.

 

[LeBuick]

Sorry LeBuick,

But you are falling prey to the fallacy of Division. There are two varieties of this fallacy. You are falling into the second type.



To argue that because the people on your street during the 80s suffered difficult financial times, therefore each, or even any other, Americans must have also suffered difficult financial times during the 80s would be to commit the second type of division fallacy. It is true that some people did suffer difficult financial times in America during the 80s, but it is false to say that the 80s, as a whole, were difficult financial times for all Americans. Basically, your experience of those times is too limited to justify making the generalization for the experience of the nation as a whole.

I admitted some did well in the 80's just as some are doing great now. Did you see the bonuses being given out with the $70 Billion bailout money. They are doing real good thanks to "welfare" and"spreading the wealth around". I was saying NOT ALL of us did well in the 80's. In other words not all of us were happy with Reagan.

 

[poncho]

I disagree - these folks were scared stiff when Reagan was elected. They knew that Carter had given away the Panama Canal and turn his back of Free China in favour of Red China so knew he was a patsy.

And what did Reagan do? Along with Mrs Thatcher they ended the Cold War and defeated European Communism.

Coincidence? I don't think so.

The U.S.S.R fell because it was an over extended militarized empire rotting from within from corruption. It would have collapsed in time under it's own weight had Reagan done nothing. What Reagan did do was to hurry it along by getting the Russians involved in an arms race they couldn't afford. Then taking credit for single handedly defeating communism. The U.S.S.R defeated itself.

Communism itself hasn't been defeated at all it's alive and well and resides in the offices of the United Nations in New York City. The same folks we have to ask permission of to defend our own nation. The same folks who are teaching our young people in public schools. UNESCO. Reagan to his credit did get us out of UNESCO, Bush II on the other hand got us right back into it and I'm quite certain Obama would do whatever he could to further empower the United Nations. Like say a global tax.

I'd have to say communism has gained the upper hand, two hands in fact and right now they're wrapped around the USA's throat.