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Observations on the closed 'tongues' thread
- Thread starter Walguy
- Start date
Good one Blackbird 
MEE, I have to agree with DHK, Pentecost was a special one time event. There was so much going on there and the Holy Spirit was just begining to establish its first real assembly of believers. To try to equate that with the 2002 use of tongues is just not right. Like DHK said where are the "tongues of fire" over the tongues speakers today? MEE, it just isn't the same.
Thanks for your kind words and I hope you know that myself, Walguy, DHK and others are not putting you down and we do not think poorly of you, we just are so sure about this doctrine, from a Biblical standpoint, that we are trying, in love, to free you from errant doctrine and practice. MEE, My prayer for you is that you will someday heed the words of Paul and pray with words that produce "fruit" in your mind (If you pray in a private language that you don't know Paul says your mind is unfruitful and that can't be a GOOD thing right? ). You know my wife says my mind is always unfruitful, but I guess that is a different subject
In Christian Love,
Brian
[ June 27, 2002, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]
MEE, I have to agree with DHK, Pentecost was a special one time event. There was so much going on there and the Holy Spirit was just begining to establish its first real assembly of believers. To try to equate that with the 2002 use of tongues is just not right. Like DHK said where are the "tongues of fire" over the tongues speakers today? MEE, it just isn't the same.
Thanks for your kind words and I hope you know that myself, Walguy, DHK and others are not putting you down and we do not think poorly of you, we just are so sure about this doctrine, from a Biblical standpoint, that we are trying, in love, to free you from errant doctrine and practice. MEE, My prayer for you is that you will someday heed the words of Paul and pray with words that produce "fruit" in your mind (If you pray in a private language that you don't know Paul says your mind is unfruitful and that can't be a GOOD thing right?
). You know my wife says my mind is always unfruitful, but I guess that is a different subject In Christian Love,
Brian
[ June 27, 2002, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]
DHK, you have to be kidding! Acts 2:39) For the
"PROMISE" is unto you and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
DHK, He is still calling!
BTW, it doesn't say that there were tongues of fire hanging over their heads. Also, it was not a one time event. Surley you have read all of the book of Acts.
As long as the Lord is calling, He is still filling sinners with His Spirit. When one receives the Spirit he/she will speak in tongues as the evidence that they are filled with His Spirit. That is the way it was done in the beginning and that is the way it will be done until He returns. Take it or leave it, that is what the Bible/KJV says.
Love you all,
MEE
MEE, The following verses go directly against what you just wrote.
1 Cor. 12:28: And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
12:29: Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
12:30: Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Any rational person knows that the implied answer is "NO". That really is not up for the debate. The Bible clearly says here that speaking with tongues is not for everybody yet you just said it was. If you are wrong on this point in such an obvious fashion it stands to reason you are wrong in your other assesments of tongues.
One more question:
How do you interpret Paul saying "tongues" was a sign for unbelievers and then referencing Isaiah 28?
Looking forward to your response!
In Christ,
Brian
1 Cor. 12:28: And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
12:29: Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
12:30: Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Any rational person knows that the implied answer is "NO". That really is not up for the debate. The Bible clearly says here that speaking with tongues is not for everybody yet you just said it was. If you are wrong on this point in such an obvious fashion it stands to reason you are wrong in your other assesments of tongues.
One more question:
How do you interpret Paul saying "tongues" was a sign for unbelievers and then referencing Isaiah 28?
Looking forward to your response!
In Christ,
Brian
GrannyGumbo
<img src ="/Granny.gif">
When one receives the Spirit he/she will speak in tongues as the evidence that they are filled with His Spirit.[MEE]
I have never 'spoke in tongues', so are you saying that for the nearly 50yrs. that I've been saved, the Holy Spirit has not dwelt in me?
I have never 'spoke in tongues', so are you saying that for the nearly 50yrs. that I've been saved, the Holy Spirit has not dwelt in me?
I really don't those who have never been Pentecostal or Charismatic should be giving Biblical instructions about Tongues.
The problem is you who are against tongues have never figured out that the Bible teaches a tongues that happens when people pray in the spirit. As Paul said, He prayed in tongues and he prayed with the understanding. He sang in tongues and he sang with the understanding. All tongues do not have to be interpreted because they are between the person and God. You also don't understand that there is a Gift of Tongues and the Interpretation of Tongues. This is what Paul was speaking of when he corrected the Corinthian Church. One gives out the message in Tongues, the second interprets the message and the third person judges it.
When people are in services and all they do is chatter in tongues then that is out of line and contrary to the word of God.
Yet what does anyone expect out of those who speak out against tongues because when you get to the part of prophesy instead of admitting this is a supernatural thing from God foretelling future events it is said they were preaching the word and that is not true. Look in Acts. Was Agabus the prophet preaching the word both when he prophesied about the bad storm or that Paul was going to be bound in Jerusalem. No he was supernaturally foretelling future events. Joel even prophesied about these things. He said the young men and women would prophesy and the older men would have dreams and visions.
REality is those who speak out against tongues don't believe in a supernatural God but in a God who is impotent. He cannot give visions, or dreams because the Bible exists. He cannot heal because we have modern medicine. Instead of demons possessing people and oppressing them we have mental problems or psychological problems but the Bible says explicitly that God is the same God and he never changes and it is Jesus Christ the Same yesterday, today and forever.
Jesus said in Mark 16 that these signs shall follow believers and one of them was Speaking in Tongues and yes he did mention they will take up serpents and they will not hurt them. Did not Paul prove thise scripture when the viper attached himself to his arm and Paul shook him off in the fire?
No where did Jesus state in Mark 16 that these signs were only going to temporarily follow the believers.
The problem is you who are against tongues have never figured out that the Bible teaches a tongues that happens when people pray in the spirit. As Paul said, He prayed in tongues and he prayed with the understanding. He sang in tongues and he sang with the understanding. All tongues do not have to be interpreted because they are between the person and God. You also don't understand that there is a Gift of Tongues and the Interpretation of Tongues. This is what Paul was speaking of when he corrected the Corinthian Church. One gives out the message in Tongues, the second interprets the message and the third person judges it.
When people are in services and all they do is chatter in tongues then that is out of line and contrary to the word of God.
Yet what does anyone expect out of those who speak out against tongues because when you get to the part of prophesy instead of admitting this is a supernatural thing from God foretelling future events it is said they were preaching the word and that is not true. Look in Acts. Was Agabus the prophet preaching the word both when he prophesied about the bad storm or that Paul was going to be bound in Jerusalem. No he was supernaturally foretelling future events. Joel even prophesied about these things. He said the young men and women would prophesy and the older men would have dreams and visions.
REality is those who speak out against tongues don't believe in a supernatural God but in a God who is impotent. He cannot give visions, or dreams because the Bible exists. He cannot heal because we have modern medicine. Instead of demons possessing people and oppressing them we have mental problems or psychological problems but the Bible says explicitly that God is the same God and he never changes and it is Jesus Christ the Same yesterday, today and forever.
Jesus said in Mark 16 that these signs shall follow believers and one of them was Speaking in Tongues and yes he did mention they will take up serpents and they will not hurt them. Did not Paul prove thise scripture when the viper attached himself to his arm and Paul shook him off in the fire?
No where did Jesus state in Mark 16 that these signs were only going to temporarily follow the believers.
GrannyGumbo
<img src ="/Granny.gif">
God is the same God and he never changes and it is Jesus Christ the Same yesterday, today and forever.[hrhema]
And He has left us His completed Word, which is ALWAYS right and anything different is wrong! The instructions for 'tongues' are found therein. You are correct in that I have never been to a pentecostal/charismatic church. Instructions about that are found in God's Word also.
p.s. There's snakes over in the 'gator pond across the bayou, but not one single 'apostolic' around here has ever picked one up! Imagine that!
And He has left us His completed Word, which is ALWAYS right and anything different is wrong! The instructions for 'tongues' are found therein. You are correct in that I have never been to a pentecostal/charismatic church. Instructions about that are found in God's Word also.
p.s. There's snakes over in the 'gator pond across the bayou, but not one single 'apostolic' around here has ever picked one up! Imagine that!
hrhema,
"I really don't those who have never been Pentecostal or Charismatic should be giving Biblical instructions about Tongues."
---Those that are grounded in the Word give instruction; not those who have experiences. Does your theology arise from your experience or vice-versa?
"The problem is you who are against tongues have never figured out that the Bible teaches a tongues that happens when people pray in the spirit. As Paul said, He prayed in tongues and he prayed with the understanding. He sang in tongues and he sang with the understanding. All tongues do not have to be interpreted because they are between the person and God."
---Paul never said that that was a good thing. The gift of tongues was given for the church, not for individual use. It was never intended to be used as a prayer language. You can't demonstrate that through Scripture. Tongues was never intended to be used selfishly. The whole point of 1Cor.14 was to rebuke those who spoke in tongues because they were using their gift selfishly, and it was not edifying the church.
"You also don't understand that there is a Gift of Tongues and the Interpretation of Tongues. This is what Paul was speaking of when he corrected the Corinthian Church. One gives out the message in Tongues, the second interprets the message and the third person judges it."
---In your church, does every one who speaks in tongues have an interpreter, as you suggest. I have yet to see that happen. By the way, the tongues were actual languages. From what languages were thy interpreted, and what languages are they being interpreted into? Do you know, and if so, How? If you don't know, and you don't know what you are speaking when you are speaking in tongues, is there not a real possibility that you are giving praise to Satan rather than to God. Tongues is a counterfeit of the Devil.
"REality is those who speak out against tongues don't believe in a supernatural God but in a God who is impotent. He cannot give visions, or dreams because the Bible exists. He cannot heal because we have modern medicine. Instead of demons possessing people and oppressing them we have mental problems or psychological problems but the Bible says explicitly that God is the same God and he never changes and it is Jesus Christ the Same yesterday, today and forever."
---Now that is a gross misunderstanding of what most of us believe, if not slanderous. God is omnipotent, works miracles, works in the supernatural, is the same: yesterday, today, and forever. But He does NOT go against His Word nor His nature. He does not work through dreams and visions (Heb.1:1,2). God heals, but not through supposed faith-healers. He is a God that answers prayer. Demons are a definite reality in life; tongues-speakers may be either possessed or oppressed by some.
"Jesus said in Mark 16 that these signs shall follow believers and one of them was Speaking in Tongues and yes he did mention they will take up serpents and they will not hurt them. Did not Paul prove thise scripture when the viper attached himself to his arm and Paul shook him off in the fire?"
---Yes Paul proved that those signs would follow the ascension, and that they would end with the Apostolic Age.
"No where did Jesus state in Mark 16 that these signs were only going to temporarily follow the believers."
---Jesus did not state that they were to continue indefinitely. You cannot make an argument from silence. But compare Scripture with Scripture. We learn from 1Cor.13:8-13 that tongues have ceased.
DHK
"I really don't those who have never been Pentecostal or Charismatic should be giving Biblical instructions about Tongues."
---Those that are grounded in the Word give instruction; not those who have experiences. Does your theology arise from your experience or vice-versa?
"The problem is you who are against tongues have never figured out that the Bible teaches a tongues that happens when people pray in the spirit. As Paul said, He prayed in tongues and he prayed with the understanding. He sang in tongues and he sang with the understanding. All tongues do not have to be interpreted because they are between the person and God."
---Paul never said that that was a good thing. The gift of tongues was given for the church, not for individual use. It was never intended to be used as a prayer language. You can't demonstrate that through Scripture. Tongues was never intended to be used selfishly. The whole point of 1Cor.14 was to rebuke those who spoke in tongues because they were using their gift selfishly, and it was not edifying the church.
"You also don't understand that there is a Gift of Tongues and the Interpretation of Tongues. This is what Paul was speaking of when he corrected the Corinthian Church. One gives out the message in Tongues, the second interprets the message and the third person judges it."
---In your church, does every one who speaks in tongues have an interpreter, as you suggest. I have yet to see that happen. By the way, the tongues were actual languages. From what languages were thy interpreted, and what languages are they being interpreted into? Do you know, and if so, How? If you don't know, and you don't know what you are speaking when you are speaking in tongues, is there not a real possibility that you are giving praise to Satan rather than to God. Tongues is a counterfeit of the Devil.
"REality is those who speak out against tongues don't believe in a supernatural God but in a God who is impotent. He cannot give visions, or dreams because the Bible exists. He cannot heal because we have modern medicine. Instead of demons possessing people and oppressing them we have mental problems or psychological problems but the Bible says explicitly that God is the same God and he never changes and it is Jesus Christ the Same yesterday, today and forever."
---Now that is a gross misunderstanding of what most of us believe, if not slanderous. God is omnipotent, works miracles, works in the supernatural, is the same: yesterday, today, and forever. But He does NOT go against His Word nor His nature. He does not work through dreams and visions (Heb.1:1,2). God heals, but not through supposed faith-healers. He is a God that answers prayer. Demons are a definite reality in life; tongues-speakers may be either possessed or oppressed by some.
"Jesus said in Mark 16 that these signs shall follow believers and one of them was Speaking in Tongues and yes he did mention they will take up serpents and they will not hurt them. Did not Paul prove thise scripture when the viper attached himself to his arm and Paul shook him off in the fire?"
---Yes Paul proved that those signs would follow the ascension, and that they would end with the Apostolic Age.
"No where did Jesus state in Mark 16 that these signs were only going to temporarily follow the believers."
---Jesus did not state that they were to continue indefinitely. You cannot make an argument from silence. But compare Scripture with Scripture. We learn from 1Cor.13:8-13 that tongues have ceased.
DHK
[/qb][/QUOTE]You're the one that's got to be kidding if you are trying to use this verse to justify the use of tongues in this day and age. "The promise" does not refer to "tongues" MEE. Look at the context.
"The promise" obviously refers to salvation and not to tongues. Don't take Scripture out of context.
DHK[/QB][/QUOTE]
I am very much aware that the promise is the infilling of the Spirit of God. I am also aware of the fact that "tongues" is the evidence of that promise. I wasn't taking it out of context.
Still smiling,
MEE
"The promise" obviously refers to salvation and not to tongues. Don't take Scripture out of context.
DHK[/QB][/QUOTE]
I am very much aware that the promise is the infilling of the Spirit of God. I am also aware of the fact that "tongues" is the evidence of that promise. I wasn't taking it out of context.
Still smiling,
MEE
GrannyGumbo
<img src ="/Granny.gif">
When one receives the Spirit he/she will speak in tongues as the evidence that they are filled with His Spirit.[MEE]
I have never 'spoke in tongues', so are you saying that for the nearly 50yrs. that I've been saved, the Holy Spirit has not dwelt in me?
Please, MEE, tell me the answer. Thanks.
I have never 'spoke in tongues', so are you saying that for the nearly 50yrs. that I've been saved, the Holy Spirit has not dwelt in me?
Please, MEE, tell me the answer. Thanks.
If that is true then why don't tongues follow every time a believer is filled with the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts. It just ain't so.
When the people of Samaria (Acts 8) believed and trusted Christ upon the preaching of Philip, they did not speak in tongues. Were they then not saved?
DHK
MEE, hr's post did not address the questions I raised at all. I wanted to know what Paul was talking about when he called tongues a "sign" to unbelievers and referenced Isaiah 28, Please read Isaiah 28 and then answer, thanks.
Also MEE, You have said twice now that tongues are for all believers but I showed you in 1 Cor. 12 where Paul teaches just the opposite. Please study what I said and respond with reason and scripture that backs what you say. I don't recall hrhema(sp?) using any scripture to back his position, hmm I wonder why?
In Christ,
Brian
Also MEE, You have said twice now that tongues are for all believers but I showed you in 1 Cor. 12 where Paul teaches just the opposite. Please study what I said and respond with reason and scripture that backs what you say. I don't recall hrhema(sp?) using any scripture to back his position, hmm I wonder why?
In Christ,
Brian
Every group including Baptists have people in their midst who do dumb things and the dumbest thing in Pentecostal circles has been those who are snake handlers. They are tempting God and that is a sin. (and for the record there has been Baptist snake handlers also)
Anyone with common sense would know that Jesus was talking about believers being protected against snake and poisons.
I have heard more than one person say that tongues have ceased because we have the Bible but that is speculation and not scriptural. Paul said tongues would ceases when he that is perfect comes. THere has only been one perfect and that is Jesus Christ.
The Bible did not even exist at the time of Paul so why would Paul declare this. This is taking scripture out of context and trying to fit it to what you want it to say to defend what you believe.
True Pentecostals do not come up with new revelations because there are no new revelations.
So many people judge all Pentecostals by those who are on Trinity Broadcasting Network who are off their gourds spiritually. These people are proponents of what older Pentecostals called Adherents of Wild Fire. Pointing fingers at people so they will fall down is not of God. The braying like donkeys or barking like dogs is not of God. The constant chattering in what they call Tongues is not of God. These are extreme excesses. They do not represent the majority of people who believe in speaking in tongues.
Granny GumbO: I don't know how long you have lived in Louisiana but I met more than one group of Baptists in Louisiana who believe in speaking in Tongues. Matter of fact there is a Baptist camp outside of Baton Rouge and the workers told the Pentecostals that they were Bapticostals.
Anyone with common sense would know that Jesus was talking about believers being protected against snake and poisons.
I have heard more than one person say that tongues have ceased because we have the Bible but that is speculation and not scriptural. Paul said tongues would ceases when he that is perfect comes. THere has only been one perfect and that is Jesus Christ.
The Bible did not even exist at the time of Paul so why would Paul declare this. This is taking scripture out of context and trying to fit it to what you want it to say to defend what you believe.
True Pentecostals do not come up with new revelations because there are no new revelations.
So many people judge all Pentecostals by those who are on Trinity Broadcasting Network who are off their gourds spiritually. These people are proponents of what older Pentecostals called Adherents of Wild Fire. Pointing fingers at people so they will fall down is not of God. The braying like donkeys or barking like dogs is not of God. The constant chattering in what they call Tongues is not of God. These are extreme excesses. They do not represent the majority of people who believe in speaking in tongues.
Granny GumbO: I don't know how long you have lived in Louisiana but I met more than one group of Baptists in Louisiana who believe in speaking in Tongues. Matter of fact there is a Baptist camp outside of Baton Rouge and the workers told the Pentecostals that they were Bapticostals.
H wrote: """"I have heard more than one person say that tongues have ceased because we have the Bible but that is speculation and not scriptural. Paul said tongues would ceases when he that is perfect comes. THere has only been one perfect and that is Jesus Christ.""""
NO, Paul did not say this. He said tongues would pass away on their own, basically fade away. You did not read walguy's earlier post or you would know this. By saying what you said you prove you have not carefully studied that text. Please study it again.
In Truth,
Brian
NO, Paul did not say this. He said tongues would pass away on their own, basically fade away. You did not read walguy's earlier post or you would know this. By saying what you said you prove you have not carefully studied that text. Please study it again.
In Truth,
Brian