Offer your scriptural rebuttals to the following

[Barry Johnson]

I tend to agree with you. Please follow me here for a moment as I value your input.

At one point in my study, I thought I saw both spiritual adoption and physical adoption in Ephesians 1.
Now, please understand my thinking for a moment.
Spiritual adoption is not salvation. It's simply being placed as sons, as per Galatians 4, seemingly.
Galatians 4 seemed to speak of a certain kind of adoption that was a present possession:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the ADOPTION of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are [present] sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son [present]; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Yes the two are connected, but only because they are connected in the New Testament, whereby salvation and spiritual adoption are a package deal. But spiritual adoption is a blessing that is connected to salvation, as Paul states in v.3, it's a blessing added on to our salvation. God could have saved us without placing us as sons.

So it seemed that V.5 was about present spiritual adoption, as per Galatians 4:
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

And that Vss. 11/14 were about the future physical adoption:
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Then I noticed that having predestinated us unto the adoption (Eph.1:5) was connected to the being holy and without blame before him in love (Eph.1:4); and it’s the predestination unto a glorified body that allows us to literally stand before God blameless and holy. Someone might answer, "But it’s just a positional standing before him, even now". However, I noticed that v.14 speaks of the praise of his glory as did v.6 the praise of his glory so now it seemed that the adoption of v.5 and that of v.14 (cross-reference to Romans 8:23 of course), were one and the same, so that even v.5's adoption was a reference to the future physical adoption of our body.
So what about Galatians 4? Upon reconsideration, it seemed to fit the bill as well.
Even Galatians 4, says we have received the spirit of adoption, not the adoption itself - an excellent point which I picked up from you.
The because ye are sons (Gal.4:6) was not so by spiritual adoption, as I had imagined, but by the regeneration of the Spirit, a regeneration which Paul had already mentioned in the previous chapter Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. And as confirmed by his mention of the yet-future inheritance in Galatians 4:7 again matching Romans 8.

So all this to say that I'm arriving at a similar conclusion, albeit by a longer way.
Nevertheless, my question is: had you considered all of the above before arriving at your conclusion? More importantly, is there a flaw in my reasoning, even though I'm agreeing with you?

Great response here , thankyou . I think the key is that we become sons through the new birth .
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[1689Dave]

Ακόμα δεν υπάρχει στίχος που να δικαιολογεί την επιστροφή στο "πρωτότυπο ελληνικό", ε?
Translation:
Still no verse to justify going back to "the original Greek", eh?

Common sense tells you any translation is subject to bias.

Εξακολουθεί να είναι το αίτημα του μεταφραστή σχετικά με τον ορισμό που θα χρησιμοποιήσει.

 

[George Antonios]

It presumes to make God right in his decision to save some and goes beyond what is written. Infants that die in abortions never would have believed according to your position.

The O.P. was not Calvinist.

 

[George Antonios]

Common sense tells you any translation is subject to bias.

Εξακολουθεί να είναι το αίτημα του μεταφραστή σχετικά με τον ορισμό που θα χρησιμοποιήσει.

Aaaaaannnnnnnd....still no verse.

 

[1689Dave]

Aaaaaannnnnnnd....still no verse.

God's word is inspired in the original autographs. Translators take liberties = not inspired.

 

[George Antonios]

God's word is inspired in the original autographs. Translators take liberties = not inspired.

Yep. Still no verse.

 

[1689Dave]

Yep. Still no verse.

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16–17 (NCPB)

You say translations are inspired. Where is your proof?

 

[George Antonios]

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16–17 (NCPB)

You say translations are inspired. Where is your proof?

Fair enough. In context, what scripture was Paul referring to when he wrote that verse to Timothy?

 

[37818]

yes we were also chosen to be saved by the ' vehicle ' through sanctification and believing the Gosepl . The idea was that salvation could have been ' Jews only ' but Paul is comforting those that were thinking they had been left to ' strong delusion and the antichrist '
context, context , context .
its never ' chosen to be saved ' . Here its the chosen vehicle of how they were saved from the beginning.

The text translated "through sanctifcation of the Spirit" is only used twice. Once by the Apostle Peter and once by the Apostle Paul. And the fact one can be sanctifed and reject the gospel indicates that sanctification precedes faith in the gospel.

 

[1689Dave]

Fair enough. In context, what scripture was Paul referring to when he wrote that verse to Timothy?

The OT canon but the NT as wrote declares it is scripture too.

 

[George Antonios]

The OT canon but the NT as wrote declares it is scripture too.

Agreed, but I meant the immediate context:

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy SCRIPTURES, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So, the scripture of v.16 is referring to what scriptures, specifically?

 

[Sai]

The O.P. was not Calvinist.

It’s Calmenian and wrong

 

[Van]

The text translated "through sanctifcation of the Spirit" is only used twice. Once by the Apostle Peter and once by the Apostle Paul. And the fact one can be sanctifed and reject the gospel indicates that sanctification precedes faith in the gospel.

Lets back up and consider these two verses, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 1 Peter 1:1-2.

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. (NASB 2 Thess. 2:13)

Here we see our individual election for salvation is in view. From the beginning may refer to an early time, but as a minimum refers to the beginning of the New Covenant." The Greek word translated as "through" is "en" and is being used to show instrumentality, i.e." d. of the instrument or means by or with which anything is accomplished," The proposition applies to two phases, "sanctification by the Spirit" and "faith in the truth." So a more expansive translation might read, by means of sanctification by the Spirit and on the basis of faith in the truth. Thus we are individually chosen on the basis of our faith in the truth by means of God setting us apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit.

The second verse with our phrase is 1 Peter 1:1-2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Once again we see our individual election for salvation is in view. And once again we see the Greek word translated as "by" is the preposition "en" and again is being used to show instrumentality, chosen by means of the Spirit setting us apart in Christ.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Lets back up and consider these two verses, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 1 Peter 1:1-2.

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. (NASB 2 Thess. 2:13)

Here we see our individual election for salvation is in view. From the beginning may refer to an early time, but as a minimum refers to the beginning of the New Covenant." The Greek word translated as "through" is "en" and is being used to show instrumentality, i.e." d. of the instrument or means by or with which anything is accomplished," The proposition applies to two phases, "sanctification by the Spirit" and "faith in the truth." So a more expansive translation might read, by means of sanctification by the Spirit and on the basis of faith in the truth. Thus we are individually chosen on the basis of our faith in the truth by means of God setting us apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit.

The second verse with our phrase is 1 Peter 1:1-2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Once again we see our individual election for salvation is in view. And once again we see the Greek word translated as "by" is the preposition "en" and again is being used to show instrumentality, chosen by means of the Spirit setting us apart in Christ.

Could it be the vehicle of savation is how we are all chosen in the church age? . After all before the cross no one was chosen through believing the death , burial and resurrection..We can say to everyone today that they are chosen through the means of believing the truth and being set apart through the Holy Spirit. Isnt that good news . We can comfort all believers today by reminding them this wonderful truth as to how they were saved . No one is ever chosen TO BE saved however , before they actually freely choose to recieve.

 

[George Antonios]

It’s Calmenian and wrong

Hunh? How?

 

[1689Dave]

Agreed, but I meant the immediate context:

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy SCRIPTURES, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So, the scripture of v.16 is referring to what scriptures, specifically?

To all scripture now. To the OT before the NT scriptures emerged.

 

[George Antonios]

To all scripture now. To the OT before the NT scriptures emerged.

Please consider the words in capital, red, underlined letters.

 

[1689Dave]

Please consider the words in capital, red, underlined letters.

What about them?

 

[George Antonios]

What about them?

Would it be right to say that the scripture of v.16 is a direct reference back to the scriptures of v.15, whereon Timothy fed?

 

[atpollard]

Would it be right to say that the scripture of v.16 is a direct reference back to the scriptures of v.15, whereon Timothy fed?

Are you claiming that only the OT is inspired scripture?