Offer your scriptural rebuttals to the following

[George Antonios]

Are you claiming that only the OT is inspired scripture?

Of course not.

 

[Sai]

Hunh? How?

Many have rejected Calvinism because of some of his errors. The Calmenian rejectors didn’t not bother with a full biblical investigation of both sides of the arguments and oversimplify their position with a blanket statement that God looked into the future and elected based upon knowing you and I were always going to choose to believe the gospel.

It really doesn’t solve the question of God’s sovereignty and man’s will being in harmony together in salvation because in this view, man is seen as taking the first step. In this view the argument can be made that God owed it to you and to me to save us.

 

[George Antonios]

It really doesn’t solve the question of God’s sovereignty and man’s will being in harmony together in salvation because in this view, man is seen as taking the first step.

No, simply because foresaw who would believe upon him after the Holy Spirit's conviction.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

• God foreknew (foresaw) who would trust in Christ unto salvation.
• God also decided to choose those whom he foreknew would believe, irrelevant of their works, to be sanctified (made holy): i.e. God said "Because I know they will trust my Son, I'm going to choose him and him and him to make them holy and without blame". So God wrote down our names based on his foreknowledge. Then upon our belief of the truth, God now practically chose us unto salvation, as he knew would happen.
• God also predestinated those whom he foreknew would believe to two extra blessings above and beyond strict salvation, namely: their spiritual adoption as children upon the moment of their belief, to be followed by their physical adoption at the moment of their resurrection (of course, salvation and adoption are inseparably connected, but God could have saved us from hell without necessarily making of us his children).

What verses and explanation of the verses would you present in opposition to the above points?

I'm teaching on predestination tomorrow morning at church, so please take your time to present a good scriptural rebuttal. I know you've probably answered these before, but give me a good point-form rebuttal. Something for future reference.

We may not agree, but I need your best to properly represent your position.

Thanks.

Who said anything about foreknowledge?

 

[Sai]

No, simply because foresaw who would believe upon him after the Holy Spirit's conviction.

That means that God elected based on human merit.

 

[1689Dave]

Would it be right to say that the scripture of v.16 is a direct reference back to the scriptures of v.15, whereon Timothy fed?

Yes, but new scripture is equal to the older scripture. Just as the old developed into more books and chapters.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Many have rejected Calvinism because of some of his errors.

I think you're right but that is a non sequitur. Calvinism actually precedes Calvin. Leaving aside Augustine, Wycliffe believed in Calvinism nearly 200 years before Calvin, as did William Tyndale, writing when Calvin was still in short pants:

'By grace we are plucked out of Adam, the ground of all evil, and graffed into Christ, the root of all goodness. In Christ God loved us, his elect and chosen, before the world began, and reserved us unto the knowledge of his Son and of his holy gospel; and when the gospel is preached to us, openeth our hearts, and giveth us grace to believe, and putteth the Spirit of Christ in us.' William Tyndale, 'A Pathway into the Scriptures, c. 1525.

 

[37818]

Lets back up and consider these two verses, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 1 Peter 1:1-2.

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. (NASB 2 Thess. 2:13)

Here we see our individual election for salvation is in view. From the beginning may refer to an early time, but as a minimum refers to the beginning of the New Covenant." The Greek word translated as "through" is "en" and is being used to show instrumentality, i.e." d. of the instrument or means by or with which anything is accomplished," The proposition applies to two phases, "sanctification by the Spirit" and "faith in the truth." So a more expansive translation might read, by means of sanctification by the Spirit and on the basis of faith in the truth. Thus we are individually chosen on the basis of our faith in the truth by means of God setting us apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit.

The second verse with our phrase is 1 Peter 1:1-2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Once again we see our individual election for salvation is in view. And once again we see the Greek word translated as "by" is the preposition "en" and again is being used to show instrumentality, chosen by means of the Spirit setting us apart in Christ.

The "in sanctification of the Spirit" precedes the salvation "through faith." Which many resist, Acts of the Apostles 7:51, Hebrews 10:29.

 

[Van]

The "in sanctification of the Spirit" precedes the salvation "through faith." Which many resist, Acts of the Apostles 7:51, Hebrews 10:29.

As the election my means of being set apart in Christ is on the basis of faith in the truth, the sequence agrees with my view.

The fact many of the lost do not accept the gospel or do not accept it fully is not in dispute.

My point is that our individual election for salvation is accomplished when God places us into Christ spiritually. This is the sanctification (being set apart) by the Spirit and the sanctifying work of the Spirit. From 2 Thessalonians 2:13 we also see that the basis for the election is faith in the truth. This is consistent with John 3:16 which says everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Here the believing exists first. "For by grace we have been saved through (or on the basis of) faith. Once again (Ephesians 2:8) the sequence has faith before salvation.

Philippians 3:9
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

 

[Dave G]

• God foreknew (foresaw) who would trust in Christ unto salvation.
• God also decided to choose those whom he foreknew would believe, irrelevant of their works, to be sanctified (made holy): i.e. God said "Because I know they will trust my Son, I'm going to choose him and him and him to make them holy and without blame". So God wrote down our names based on his foreknowledge. Then upon our belief of the truth, God now practically chose us unto salvation, as he knew would happen.
• God also predestinated those whom he foreknew would believe to two extra blessings above and beyond strict salvation, namely: their spiritual adoption as children upon the moment of their belief, to be followed by their physical adoption at the moment of their resurrection (of course, salvation and adoption are inseparably connected, but God could have saved us from hell without necessarily making of us his children).

What verses and explanation of the verses would you present in opposition to the above points?

George,

As other posters have stated, foreknowledge and foreknowing are the starting place when it comes to God saving people, as that is what Romans 8:28-30 ( as well as several other places ) develops.
That term, as defined in other Scriptures, is that starting place in order to understand why God saved anyone.

In addition, to bring our understanding of the term in from other places should not enter into our minds as believers, because that would mean trying to explain God's words by something that does not depend upon Him and Him alone.

The Lord has given to His people the Holy Spirit, so that they might know the things that are freely given to them of God ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).
Those "things" are spoken to us and for us by his apostles, in His word:

" Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." ( 1 Corinthians 2:13 ).

He specifically tells us that His word is truth ( John 17:17 ), and that we should trust Him with all our hearts, and not to lean on our own understanding ( Proverbs 3:5-7 )...
That understanding is often faulty, especially as babes in Christ....
Which is why the Lord had Peter write 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15.

Therefore, we should not only believe His words explicitly, but they should be sufficient in and of themselves to explain themselves.
As one old preacher I heard once said, " The Bible does not need explaining, it needs believing."


I agree with that statement wholeheartedly.

 

[Dave G]

@George Antonios

The Scriptures that contextually define foreknowledge for us ( rather than breaking down the Greek word "προγινώσκω", or "proginōskō " in order to help to define it ) in Romans 8:29-30 , are as follows:

Psalms 139.
Isaiah 49:1-5
Jeremiah 1:5.
1 Corinthians 8:3.

...There are others as well.


In the Bible, to "know" someone intimately is to love them ( Genesis 4:1, Genesis 4:25, Jeremiah 31:3 ).
Therefore, the Lord "knows" His sheep:
" I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine." ( John 10:14 ).

To know God is to love Him:
" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose." ( Romans 8:28 ).

Notice here that, not only do believers love God, but that they are also the ones that are "the called" according to His purpose.
Please see Romans 8:29-30 and many other passages for what it is to be "called" or "the called".

In other parts of His word we see that loving and knowing are equated together:

" Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. " ( 1 John 4:7-10 ).

" We love him, because he first loved us." ( 1 John 4:19 ).

So it was for Adam and his wife;
Marriage, as defined in the Bible, is a direct "picture" in the physical sense, of God "knowing" His people in the spiritual sense.
Christ and His bride are "wedded" to Him ( Romans 7:1-4, 2 Corinthians 11:2 ) and the Church, the body of all those who have believed on Christ, are referred to as "her".

In fact, there is a direct corollary between earthly wives and the Church ( "her" ) as found in Ephesians 5:22-33.
Men are to love their wives with the same love that Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it.
That is true love, my friend.

For God to send His Son to save a people that He placed His love upon, from before the foundation of the world, is an amazing thing.
To be the recipient of that love is to be given the greatest gift known to men...


Eternal life, which is to know ( and love ) God and His Son ( John 17:3 ).

 

[37818]

As the election my means of being set apart in Christ is on the basis of faith in the truth, the sequence agrees with my view.

The fact many of the lost do not accept the gospel or do not accept it fully is not in dispute.

My point is that our individual election for salvation is accomplished when God places us into Christ spiritually. This is the sanctification (being set apart) by the Spirit and the sanctifying work of the Spirit. From 2 Thessalonians 2:13 we also see that the basis for the election is faith in the truth. This is consistent with John 3:16 which says everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Here the believing exists first. "For by grace we have been saved through (or on the basis of) faith. Once again (Ephesians 2:8) the sequence has faith before salvation.

Philippians 3:9
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Again, sanctification precedes faith, ". . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Dave G]

@George Antonios:

In God's word, being foreknown is to be fore-loved.
The context of Psalms 139 supports it.
The language of so many parts of God's word, supports it.

That is where foreknowledge begins...
With a God that loved a people, even when they were dead in trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2 ), and are His workmanship, created "in Christ Jesus"....
Not only to walk in good works, but for an inheritance prepared for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:34 ).

An inheritance, incorruptible and undefiled, reserved in Heaven for them ( 1 Peter 1:4 )...
For that is where Jesus Christ now sits, at the right hand of the Father, awaiting His return.

The Lord told Abraham, "Fear not, Abram: I [am] thy shield, [and] thy exceeding great reward." ( from Genesis 15:1 ).
He is our inheritance as believers.
We know Him and are known of Him...
We love Him and are loved of Him.

That, my friend, is the simplicity of the Gospel and of Jesus Christ.

That simplicity is found in the details of foreknowledge / election, predestination, calling, justification and glorification;
Which all point back to the Lord and His love for His people.


May God bless you greatly, sir.

 

[Dave G]

If you want to go ahead and keep seeing God as a dictator, go right ahead sir, but that sounds like an awful witness to give to a lost sheep when trying to convince him to come into the flock to avoid losing His soul to the world. What sounds better?

Option A.) God chose you (or not), so it doesn't matter what your will is, it's already been decided.

Option B.) God gives you a chance and choice to recieve His grace, not earned, but offered freely because our God is merciful and Just, and is willing to forgive all who repent and choose to have Jesus as their lord.

Option A is what gives all the glory to God in salvation.
Option B ( at least in what I've underlined above ) robs God of some of that glory, and does not explain the passages regarding election and the condition of our heart and will before being born again.

For there to be a "chance", from God's point of view, ultimately bases our salvation upon our own actions...
The actions of a people whose will is decidedly against God and His ways ( Psalms 10:4, Psalms 14:1-4, Psalms 53:1-4, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Jeremiah 17:9, Mark 7:20-23, Romans 1:18-31, Romans 3:10:18, John 3:19-20, Ephesians 4:17-19 ) were it not for Him causing us to be born again, at the heart level.

It is because of this corrupt "heart" and corrupt "flesh" ( Romans 7:14-25, Galatians 5:16-17 ) that God not only has to make the first step, He has to do all the work for His people.
If He didn't, then salvation would not be entirely "of the Lord".
It would be a "cooperative effort" between man and God, and the purity of the gift would cease to be a gift and would be polluted by our own works.

In addition, if God gives men a "chance" to do something to gain His favor and the gift of eternal life, then that would constitute merit...
and salvation is not based upon our merit ( works ) but is instead based upon His mercy and grace ( Romans 9:15-16 , Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5-7).

Merit is what turns the gift of eternal life ( Romans 6:23 ) into a reward for works.
The two are completely incompatible ( Romans 4:4-5, Romans 11:5-6 ).

As an analogy, it would be like taking a bucket of pure and refreshing mountain spring water, and adding a drop of raw sewage into it.
That is what it is like for the Lord, who is holy, to rely upon our own actions to determine our destiny, as sinners.
His work is holy and pure, and our works are far from it.



In addition, we as men do not do the "convincing"...the Holy Spirit through God's word, does.

 

[Dave G]

• God also decided to choose those whom he foreknew would believe, irrelevant of their works, to be sanctified (made holy): i.e. God said "Because I know they will trust my Son, I'm going to choose him and him and him to make them holy and without blame". So God wrote down our names based on his foreknowledge. Then upon our belief of the truth, God now practically chose us unto salvation, as he knew would happen.

That sounds like their belief to me, at least one of their false ones. That GOD CHOSE, not Man chose God.

It's close.

I've underlined what I see as the pertinent parts above.
God chooses, and then we, as the targets of that choice, willingly choose to believe on Jesus Christ when we are subjected to the truth.

So, it's really both, but in a certain order.

We as sinful and God-hating ( Romans 1:30, John 3:19-20 and many others ) men and women choose to believe, because of God's work in us.
When He graciously convicts us of our sinfulness in the light of His perfect Law ( and most importantly by the power of the Holy Spirit ), we then willingly choose to believe on Christ as our Saviour.

Without the work of the Holy Ghost, which only works "effectually" in them that believe ( 1 Thessalonians 2:13 ), we as men would never choose to believe on His Son.
This is what the Bible calls, "drawing" ( Jeremiah 31:3, John 6:44 ).

However, our belief of the truth is the evidence of our salvation, not the determining factor.
Our faith, as believers, is the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ).




May God bless you richly as you continue in your daily studies, my sister.

 

[Sai]

I think you're right but that is a non sequitur. Calvinism actually precedes Calvin. Leaving aside Augustine, Wycliffe believed in Calvinism nearly 200 years before Calvin, as did William Tyndale, writing when Calvin was still in short pants:

'By grace we are plucked out of Adam, the ground of all evil, and graffed into Christ, the root of all goodness. In Christ God loved us, his elect and chosen, before the world began, and reserved us unto the knowledge of his Son and of his holy gospel; and when the gospel is preached to us, openeth our hearts, and giveth us grace to believe, and putteth the Spirit of Christ in us.' William Tyndale, 'A Pathway into the Scriptures, c. 1525.

Loved WT.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dave G]

@George Antonios:

In fact, there is a direct corollary between earthly wives and the Church ( "her" ) as found in Ephesians 5:22-33.

I also should have added Revelation 19:7-8 as part of the "composite picture" of who we are as the spiritual bride of Christ:

" Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

As that spiritual bride that He gave Himself for in His foreknowledge, we are without spot and blemish due to His earthly sacrifice for us.
This sacirifce was not extended to those He did not foreknow, which is why He will tell those who profess Christ, but in their actions they deny Him and who profess with the lips but in their hearts He is far from Him:

" I never knew you" ( Matthew 7:21-23 )..

That "knowledge" is an intimate knowledge and loving, and is completely in line with God loving certain sinners, and not loving others ( Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5, Romans 9:13, etc. ).
While some try to stretch John 3:16 over every part of the Bible in an effort to show that God somehow loves each and every person who ever lived and died, the context of the whole simply does not support it.

His love is an intimate love for those who have, from the heart, believed on Him and His Son...
A people chosen "in Christ" from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ).


I'm off now for dinner and fellowship...
Good afternoon to you, sir.

 

[Van]

Again, sanctification precedes faith, ". . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Faith must precede being placed into Christ, for scripture says we are chosen for salvation on the basis of faith.

In the verse above (Hebrews 10:29) we have all mankind being set apart under the new covenant in His blood, not salvation. If a person is set apart in Christ, they are saved forever. See 2 Peter 2:1 for another example of all mankind being put under the New Covenant, this time the word "bought" is used.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 8:50 PM Pacific.

 

[37818]

Faith must precede being placed into Christ, for scripture says we are chosen for salvation on the basis of faith.

In the verse above (Hebrews 10:29) we have all mankind being set apart under the new covenant in His blood, not salvation. If a person is set apart in Christ, they are saved forever. See 2 Peter 2:1 for another example of all mankind being put under the New Covenant, this time the word "bought" is used.

In Hebrews 10:29 is an individual who was sanctified. And ". . . who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace." ". . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy?" Peter wrote, "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." -- 2 Peter 2:21.