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OK for a woman to baptize?
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Brother Bob
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You gave examples of women prophesying, not preaching the gospel.gb93433 said:
My definition of prophesying is not wrong either. It is to foretell of a coming event. That is the only reason women can prophesy.
Do you have women preachers in your church, where you belong???
Bbob,
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Do you want examples of men too? Your definition of prophecy only covers about two percent of the totality of prophecy in the Bible. Simply read the books of the prophets.Brother Bob said:
First of all, it is not my church. It is Christ's and we are His servants. Got all kinds of women preachers in the church of Christ who give out the gospel every day. That is one of the main reason women are reached.
If you make a cursory study of the history of the early church you will quickly find that men and women had little contact with one another and that women reached and discipled women and children unlike the pastors who are getting into trouble today making the local and national news.
Sometime take a look at Romans 10:12-15, "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!"
So you suggest that your pastor preach the gospel to the saved? If that is the case then I feel sorry that you go to a church where the preacher preaches the gospel to the saved. The world is where the gospel is to be preached not to the saved. That is the problem with so many lukewarm churches today. Too many preachers find 52 different ways to preach the gospel each week of every year while the people do nothing but sleep.
There is a big difference between a pastor and preacher?
For example Billy Graham is a preacher and not a pastor. His daughter has preached but has never pastored.
Preachers can be anyone who is saved but pastors should be men.
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Brother Bob
New Member
Please don't feel sorry for me, for I go to a church where the world is invited to come in also and hear the word of God. I certainly do preach the Gospel to the entire congregation. I take offense if you are calling our church a "lukewarm" church. You do not know anything about us whatsoever. I suspect you have your hands full taking care of your own church, where you belong.gb93433 said:
You know, I have not problem whatsoever calling it "my church". It is my life and I have this feeling "its mine, and you are not going to take it away". Maybe I am wrong for feeling that way, just can't help myself. The brothers and sisters are what make up the church, with the government upon the shoulders of the Lord. They are "my" brothers and sisters" and He is "My Lord. Go figure,
Rom 1:16¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
As you can see that even the saved need to be preached to. I will go a little farther than that, even the Pastor needs to be preached to, for therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith. Oh yea, the just shall live by faith and need to a revival all along to help us through this unfriendly world. If you do not know that, I feel sorry for you, for I rejoice greatly in the Gospel.
If you took time to notice, I did say your church that you go to. That is a great difference than being your church, but if you are looking to be confrontational, there is always something you can find.
If you do not agree that prophesy is to fortell of the future, as one definition, then you are just plain wrong.
I asked for you to show me scripture of women preaching and you have failed to do so. Apparently there are parts of scripture that "lets see", you said was a "red herring". I suppose the following is a red herring to you.
1 Tim 2;
7: Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not
a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 8: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9: In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10: But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13: For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
Either follow scripture or make up your own. The Lord give you that choice.
BBob,
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Brother Bob
New Member
Jerome said:
Darby Bible Translation
The Lord gives the word: great the host of the publishers.
Only American translations says what you posted as far as I can find out.
BBob,
Tom Butler
New Member
I said the "church" as you described it (universal, invisible, made of of true believers) does not exist. YOu are confusing it with the kingdom.Bob Dudley said:
I didn't say you were dysfunctional. I said the the Universal Church, were it to exist, would be dysfunctional, useless, and divided beyond repair. You and other individuals may very well be consistent witnesses to the gospel, and are to be commended. But your witnessing comes under the auspices of a local congregation, also known as the body of Christ. I'll guarantee you the Universal church never sent out missionaries, much less held a meeting.
.
It is an ordinance given to the local churches, not to individual Christians. The failure to make the distinction leads to all sorts of mischief.
I didn't hiccup on the question. I said there is some wiggle room in the scriptures for women to baptize, but we should be very careful because the scriptural examples we are given are all baptisms by men--and ordained men at that. You can dispute our traditonal ecclesiology, but I can assure you that it was not arrived at lightly.
And please quit downgrading baptism. Our Baptist ancestors died because of their views on baptism.
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Brother Bob said:Please don't feel sorry for me, for I go to a church where the world is invited to come in also and hear the word of God. I certainly do preach the Gospel to the entire congregation. I take offense if you are calling our church a "lukewarm" church. You do not know anything about us whatsoever. I suspect you have your hands full taking care of your own church, where you belong.
You know, I have not problem whatsoever calling it "my church". It is my life and I have this feeling "its mine, and you are not going to take it away". Maybe I am wrong for feeling that way, just can't help myself. The brothers and sisters are what make up the church, with the government upon the shoulders of the Lord. They are "my" brothers and sisters" and He is "My Lord. Go figure,
Rom 1:16¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
As you can see that even the saved need to be preached to. I will go a little farther than that, even the Pastor needs to be preached to, for therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith. Oh yea, the just shall live by faith and need to a revival all along to help us through this unfriendly world. If you do not know that, I feel sorry for you, for I rejoice greatly in the Gospel.
If you took time to notice, I did say your church that you go to. That is a great difference than being your church, but if you are looking to be confrontational, there is always something you can find.
If you do not agree that prophesy is to fortell of the future, as one definition, then you are just plain wrong.
I asked for you to show me scripture of women preaching and you have failed to do so. Apparently there are parts of scripture that "lets see", you said was a "red herring". I suppose the following is a red herring to you.
1 Tim 2;
7: Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not
8: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9: In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10: But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13: For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
Either follow scripture or make up your own. The Lord give you that choice.
BBob,
AMEN, Bro. Bob! Thank you for the Word! :thumbsup:
Sorry, that's the (British) Revised Version, quoted by Charles Spurgeon in an 1891 sermon:Brother Bob said:
"Very likely Lydia became the herald of the gospel in her native place. Let the women who know the truth proclaim it; for why should their influence be lost? "The Lord giveth the word; the women that publish the tidings are a great host.""
The Bible says we are to go into the world. There will be some who come but the majority will not.Brother Bob said:
Lukewarm churches do not go into the world they invite people to come instead of going to them.
Will you contradict Jesus when he said that it was His church in Mt. 16:18?
You are right.
I would say that preaching does very little to keep one on track unless he applies James 1:22. If he does not then he is deluded. A lot of believers are deluded by their preacher into thinking that discipelship is listening to sermons, going to Bible study, and attending church. Non-believers can do all of those activities and that does not make them a disciple of Christ.
It is one definition but very little of it. It makes about as much sense as saying that a car is a tire. As you will notice in scripture that what the prophets spoke (prophesied) was about 98% and 2% as you define prophesy. Prophets preached. It is really that simple. Some of the prophets were women. I am sure you have got to understand that prophets spoke. I just cannot think of God used a prophetess to proclaim by silence.
I am sorry that you were unable to read the last post and why I could not respond to you. It was because your definiton of preaching is flawed. You gave one part of the definition and called it the definition when it was only a part.
I cannot debate with someone who has not studied the word "preach" and "prophesy" in its most basic usage. The problem you present is exactly why so many Mormons are pulling Baptists and Catholics into their fold. The Christians do not know the basic understanding of prophesy and the cults work off of that ignorance.
Prophets preach. That is just the way it is. I am unable to comprehend how anyone could declare God's message as a prophet or prophetess in silence. Even Jesus did not do that.The world in its ways would probably like that so they would not be confronted.
I am unable to think of anytime that a prophet, prophetess, or even Jesus declared the message in absolute silence.
You can follow the entirety of scripture taken in its historical context. The choice is yours if you choose to prooftext or declare God's word in its historical context.Apparently there are parts of scripture that "lets see", you said was a "red herring". I suppose the following is a red herring to you.
1 Tim 2;
7: Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not
8: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9: In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10: But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13: For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
Either follow scripture or make up your own. The Lord give you that choice.
BBob,
Now read 1 Corinthians 11 in light of its historical context and tell us what that woman does in verse 13 especially how that fits in with what you quoted from 1 Tim 2.
Ps. 68:11, "The Lord gives the command; The women who proclaim the good tidings are a great host"
The Lord gives the command in Ps. 68:11 not anyone else.
Who is proclaiming the good news at God's command?
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Brother Bob
New Member
gb93433 said:
When these women preach, do they preach the word of the prophetesses, and maybe you could quote me a few scriptures of the written word, given to us by the women preachers. I can give you plenty by the men preachers, so its only fair for you to give us some of the written word, of the women preachers.
BBob,
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Brother Bob
New Member
Jerome said:
C H Spurgeon
Psalm 68:11
EXPOSITION
Verse 11. In the next verse we do not sing of marching, but of battle and victory.
The Lord gave the word. The enemy was near, and the silver trumpet from the tabernacle door was God's mouth to warn the
camp: then was there hurrying to and fro, and a general telling of the news; great was the company of those that published
it. The women ran from tent to tent and roused their lords to battle. Ready as they always were to chant the victory, they
were equally swift to publish the fact that the battle note had been sounded. The ten thousand maids of Israel, like good
handmaids of the Lord, aroused the sleepers, called in the wanderers, and bade the valiant men to hasten to the fray. O for
the like zeal in the church of today, that, when the gospel is published, both men and women may eagerly spread the glad
tidings of great joy.
Men publish the Gospel, and both men and women spread the glad tidings. Me and my wife and brothers and sisters in the church rejoice all week over the service we had last Sunday.
Can you give some of the preaching of the women??? What about some "written word"??
I hear sisters praising God all the time. During service too, they lift their voices to sing praises and glorify Him. What I don't hear is sisters "preaching the Gospel".
BBob,
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Brother Bob said:Please don't feel sorry for me, for I go to a church where the world is invited to come in also and hear the word of God. I certainly do preach the Gospel to the entire congregation. I take offense if you are calling our church a "lukewarm" church. You do not know anything about us whatsoever. I suspect you have your hands full taking care of your own church, where you belong.
You know, I have not problem whatsoever calling it "my church". It is my life and I have this feeling "its mine, and you are not going to take it away". Maybe I am wrong for feeling that way, just can't help myself. The brothers and sisters are what make up the church, with the government upon the shoulders of the Lord. They are "my" brothers and sisters" and He is "My Lord. Go figure,
Rom 1:16¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
As you can see that even the saved need to be preached to. I will go a little farther than that, even the Pastor needs to be preached to, for therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith. Oh yea, the just shall live by faith and need to a revival all along to help us through this unfriendly world. If you do not know that, I feel sorry for you, for I rejoice greatly in the Gospel.
If you took time to notice, I did say your church that you go to. That is a great difference than being your church, but if you are looking to be confrontational, there is always something you can find.
If you do not agree that prophesy is to fortell of the future, as one definition, then you are just plain wrong.
I asked for you to show me scripture of women preaching and you have failed to do so. Apparently there are parts of scripture that "lets see", you said was a "red herring". I suppose the following is a red herring to you.
1 Tim 2;
7: Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not
8: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9: In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10: But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13: For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
Either follow scripture or make up your own. The Lord give you that choice.
BBob,
What does that have to do with women baptiizing?
Brother Bob
New Member
rbell said:
Has a lot to do with women baptizing if you believe baptizing is a part of the ministry. Hope that helps. Matter of fact, it goes to the very question of the OP. I notice you picked my post to question, when there are many who are speaking on the same subject. Wonder why??
BBob,
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Brother Bob said:
Was your mother a Christian? If you read Spurgeons comments he will also tell you that he believes it is because of his wife that his kids walk with God. I would expect that the majority of time men published and preached openly because of the societal norms. Women were viewed as chattle.
Long before the gospel was ever written down thousands and thousands came to Christ and it was written on the hearts of men and women.
I am sorry that your experience is so limited. Both my daughter and wife share their faith. I do not hear much of it but have heard some and it is great to hear women sharing their faith. None of what they have said and little of what I have said has ever been written down but it has been written in their hearts of those I have reached.
Never once in my life have I ever knocked on the door of a female college student. I assume that is true of you too. So I would expect that you have seldom ever heard a women share (preach) her faith. When people share their faith they are not simply teaching. Giving out the gospel is much more than teaching with an emphasis on history. The emphasis is on Christ not on historical facts.
I am sorry that you are not around when women are sharing their faith. I understand why that would be the case because most adults do not share their faith. My daughter began sharing her faith when she was a little kid. It is exciting to hear kids pray and share their faith. My wife came to know Christ through a friend in high school, not in the building of a church. I came to know Christ in my dorm room in college not in a church building. I know few people who have actually come to Christ in a church building. The surveys show that the majority of people come to Christ through a friend not in a church building.
Sometime when you get a chance read the book And the Word Came with Power: How God Met and Changed a People Forever by Joanne Shetler and Patricia Purvis. That book will show you how two women quietly changed a tribe forever. It will give you a very different persepctive on what God can do when people are ready to do His will.
You probably know that the largest Buddhist temple is in the US and the largest Christian church is in Korea.
[FONT="]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/s...e=ss&index=books&field-author=Patricia Purvis[/FONT]
gb93433 said:
That's called being a Godly mother. Not preaching.
gb93433 said:
Sure the Word of the Lord is in the hearts of believers, and sure women can witness to others, but that's still not preaching!
Sharing one's personal testimony is not PREACHING!gb93433 said:
Apparently you do not know the difference between witnessing, as the woman at the well, and preaching the Gospel.
Cutter said:
It is what some call ssshhhaaarrrriiinnngggg?
I do not find such an Americanized dumbed down version in the Bible.
Why do you think the church is America is so dumbed down and so weak. They have been sharing. When Christ called his disciples he did not say to them bring your possessions, money, and everything you want and then if you feel like it come follow Me. He said, "Come follow Me."
When we talk with people we should not be so much like a marshmallow but rather love them enough to warn them of the impending Christless eternity and tell them the truth with the Holy Spirit as our guide. The gospel demands an urgency, not shout stomp and spit theatrics.
People come to Christ in as many ways as there are people. That is the way the Holy Spirit works.
So are you suggesting that when someone gives their testimony in your church that it is just another story with no sense of urgency and persuasion. If that is the case then I can see why you have the experience you have had. I would not want anyone to give a dead, lifeless story. I have known people who came to Christ because of another's testimony. I was in a small group when a lady who thought she was a Christian and then heard her son give his testimony and came to Christ right there. Let me assure you that when that 10 year old boy gave his testimony it was full of life and persuasion. He preached. He spoke in a gentle voice but everyone listened.
Witnessing is preaching according to Romans 10. Witnessing is much more than the American dumbed down version of sharing one's faith and though it were a bunch of shout stomp and spit while the preacher who was so fat could not yell without huffing and puffing. Historically people lost their lives when they shared their faith. Evangelists preach. Pastors preach. Prophets and prophetesses preach. Anyone who shares their faith preaches. Many years ago when I worked in retail I spoke with a husband and wife and they told me that they came to Christ because of their daughter. Is that not preaching the gospel. Most of my family has come to Christ over the years through discussions with me. Is that not preaching? Let me assure I never "shared" with them. They knew where I stood in my walk with God.
Is it not preaching when Paul did what he did in Acts 26:27, 28, "King Agrippa, do you believe the Prophets? I know that you do." Agrippa replied to Paul, "In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian."
Satan doesn't mind when people pray, worship and teach, but he hates it when people lead others to faith in Christ. Persecution does not happen in areas among dead churches which teach but do not preach. Persecution does not happen among churches that have preachers who preach the gospel to the saved who live as though they are dead. Is that what you call preaching? I hope not.
There seems to be a good article about the subject at http://www.facingthechallenge.org/whatis.php
Brother Bob
New Member
gb93433 said:
Tis a far reach to call "sharing" preaching, God Bless.
BBob,
You are quite the character, always assuming you know other people's experiences. I have been in Spirit filled services where women stood, shaking and weeping, rendering testimonies in the Spirit of the Lord. Truly a blessing and wonderful to witness, but that is still not preaching the Gospel.gb93433 said:
gb93433 said:
Now I understand why you are confused and mixed up on what the Bible teaches. Wherever you lifted this quote from is a distortion of what the actual scripture states.
In actual truth, Agrippa replied, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian."
Not in a short time you will persuade me to be a Christian.
Huge difference, much like you are trying to say witnessing is preaching.
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