Ok so I'm Reformed in my beliefs now.

Bob,

yes..i'm sure you can tell I have a major point. Let me hold back for just 1 or 2 more post then I will post what I need.

You are right..I never posted that aborted children are in heaven.

But being that you think this is so....I must ask why?

Do you really think this is a human? The babe in the womb...has a soul just like you and I? Is this what you REALLY believe? Think before you answer this. Your saying God saves the unborn and takes him/her to heaven... if he/she dies? Is that what your saying?

 

If it can live on its own yes that is what I am saying.
So you believe aborted children (those that can live on their own) are lost, saved or nothing? Those that they let the head come out and stick an ice pick in back of its skull, does it have to go to hell after that?

You need to do some answering here yourself.

John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost before he was born that he leaped in his mother's womb.

Why do I believe babies that die go to Heaven? Jesus said "such is the Kingdom", good enough for me and who am I to argue with the Lord. Are you?

[ May 08, 2006, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

I don't see the connection. Jesus died on a cross. What a cruel thing to impose on His only begotten Son. Peter died on a cross upside-down. What a cruel thing to impose on one of His elect. Paul was stoned. What a cruel thing to do to one of His elect. Missionaries are tortured and killed all the time. What cruel things to do to His elect.

Ah, but what happens to these elect after they die? How can you compare a day, month, or years of suffering to eternity with God?

Now - as to the question as to why God would foreordain that someone should die "before their time" (regardless of age):

 

Jesus laid His life down.
Peter was crucified by an act of the devil.

To die in Christ is gain. ( so the righteous perish)

Fear not man who can destroy the body. ( so it seems man can kill man.)

God didn't stone Paul, the devil's people did.
God is not torturing the missionaries, the devil is.

And you don't see nothing strange in just the elect babies dying?

You are fishing now npet;

 

Jesus dying was planned from the beggining of time. The way he died was designed by God, the people involved were chosen by God, GOd was involved in every aspect of the crucifixion, just as HE is involved in ALL the bad things that happen to His children.

 

I already used John the Baptist to disprove you Bob. He did not choose to be born again in the womb God CHOSE John the Baptist for his role. God designed it that way...you seeing the connection Bob? It is all about God and nothing about you.

 

KJMatt.18


"1": At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

"2": And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

"3": And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"4": Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

"5": And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

"6": But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

"7": Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

"8": Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

"9": And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

"10": Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. "If that is not good enough for you James then I don't know what would convince you.


Oh, I am nothing tim; yea less than nothing and without the Grace of God I would be lost forever but I believe if I had of died as a little child I would of been as the Scriptures say above, that I would of been able to have the angels receive me in Heaven.


Ezekiel, chapter 18

"20": The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

If the soul has to sin to die how come as you say it is already dead in sin at birth.
Jesus is the one that said; "You take not my life but I lay it down", so I will leave that to Him also. So now you say that Jesus is involved with the death of babies?

 

Well bob...here comes my point.

1st what I said...Salvation is in the hands of God. What does this mean..It means I can not tell you for sure if all babies that die before birth for any reason at all...will go to heaven. I do know that some will. We see this in Davids son that died.

So...being that this is true..

being also that you hold to this view (babies in heaven)..

You have a problem you must deal with.

1) How did they get saved, if they never heard?
I say..Salvation is in Gods Hand. God elects who He wills. You claim man has a freewill. How can a baby choose?

2) being that you agree with this (Babies in heaven)...why are not all men saved? At what point do men become sinners if they are born saved? (this by the way is not found in the Bible)

3) also.......being that God DOES step in and save babies...(call it what you will..I call it election)...why is it that He does not save all? in other words...if He cares for babies...and saves them...why not step in and save all of mankind?

4) if he only does this to babies...God is respecting PERSONS. This means he can choose a baby..and not choose a man. It is His choice. Calvinist say..YES..amen. Yet Non Calvinist say God does not choose one person over another.

so..which is it? Can God choose who he wills...or not?

In Christ...James

 

Once again Bob you take things out of context. Those verses from matthew are refering to the ease with which children believe. The have faith without question, it dies not mean they are not sinful.

 

James;
I thought sure you were preparing something big for me.
Babies are saved by Grace alone. God is wiser than you or I for you say they have sinned and I say they have not. Now there come a time in childs life that the Grace of God enters him and teaches him what he is by nature and must be by Grace. As Paul said I was once alive without the Law. God judgement is for those who understand. If a mentally ill person never gets a mind to know anything I don't care how old he gets he still had not entered into sin for where there is no law sin is not imputed and they are alive without the law. We believe in a crossroads where a man come to the knowledge of good and evil and he must choose which road he will take. If he chooses to serve the flesh he shall die but if he chooses to live after the Spirit then he shall live. The wages of sin is death. So when the law comes and you break it and sin you die in sin and if you never get forgiveness you will go to hell, but if you get forgiveness then you will be as John the Baptist said; "who hath warned you to flee the wrath of God". You see these people were sinners but yet something had warned them and so did it warn you and I.
Now, if you sow to the Spirit then you through the Spirit shall reap life everlasting.
The natural death did come by Adam but the second death which is the Lake of Fire came from our own sins of which we must be forgiven or we go to hell also. But if we come to the foot of the cross and repent of our sins and be born again then we can do what John the Baptist said, "flee the wrath of God". Before the Wrath is poured out on this earth God will redeem Him people and we shall be caught up into the Heavens, both soul and body. "I would not have you ignorant brethren concerning them that are asleep, that you sorry not as other who have not hope, for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, evenso them that are asleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. He will bring them to fulfill a promise. "if the same Spirit be in you that raise Christ from the dead it shall also quicken your mortal bodies.." Amen, there is more...much much more.

 

How do you kow that tim; do you have some other way of learning than the rest of us? I mean "such is" how much more you want. "their angels before the face of God". Man...!! that something isn't it?

 

Bob...
you never addressed the point.

You said..
If a mentally ill person never gets a mind to know anything I don't care how old he gets he still had not entered into sin for where there is no law sin is not imputed and they are alive without the law. We believe in a crossroads where a man come to the knowledge of good and evil and he must choose which road he will take.

*******************

I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I do not agree with it...but that is not the point. I'm asking YOU..what does this tell you about God? If one baby/mentally sickness/whatever ...does not reach that "crossroad" and is God a respecter of persons?

In other words..if He/God steps in to save some, because He does not want them to go to hell, can He not step in and save others on the other side of this crossroads? You have shown He can and does do this in some cases. It is part of His nature to do this. He does it in love. He does it because MAN is not just sick, but DEAD to the things of God.

Calvinist say election is the same way as the baby election. If God did not elect men none would go to heaven. you said..God does not judge those that do not understand. I say he does judge all men..and no man understands. So...God does elect and does this out of love. Election is LOVE not judgement, just as you showed above with Babies

Babys did not choose..God did. Babys did not know to choose...sinful man does not know to choose. Paul was not looking for salvation..God hit him over the head with it. All are saved just like this. You are not born seeking God. God reaches out to you 1st...in some cases chases you around..places you in a meeting....sends someone your way to share...on and on..till you understand and have faith in Him.

Yet some never know? Some never hear. Why? Why did you hear and none Joe Chin from China? Salvation is in Gods Hands.

Why are some babies saved..and some men are not?
Salvation is in the hands of God.

 

Babies = no sin because sin is not imputed where no law.

adults some go to Heaven = through repenting of their sins and because they believed and repented God forgave them and received them


Adults some go to punishment = because they would not take heed to God's calling and repent and believe.

I just don't know what else to say James. That is as plain as I can put it. God calls all men, gives everyman same opporunity as you and I we too heed because we heard and believed. Some did not take heed, they heard and did not receive it and repent and believe. Is that what you want?

Maybe if you tell me why you repented I can answer you better I don't know.

 

Bob,

Well we see things the way we are trained. If anything you have shown a God in control.

Yo 1) We know that we are conceived in sin and iniquity.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Yo 2) You then say God steps in and saves those that have not crossed over into knowing what right and wrong are.

BOB..”My belief, is the child in the womb saved, is yes.”

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3725/10.html#000137

Yo 3) While in this state a child can die and go to heaven.
According to you God then steps back in and removes salvation and replaces the sin nature we had when conceived.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3725/11.html#000150

Yo 4) God then waits and till he hears man call on Him. Then God saves Him again.

This is yoyo salvation and not of the Bible

Now the Biblical view..

Man is DEAD in his trespasses and sins. Eph 2:1

None are righteous, no not one…Romans 3 10-12


Now here is the doctrine. You may want to save this and study it later.

MAN IS DEAD IN HIS SIN NATURE
Or
non posse non peccare


CONCEIVED IN SIN…..

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

The unsaved man who is controlled by his sin nature does not understand the Spirit
1 Corinthians 2:14:
14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The unsaved man which is controlled by his sin nature does not hear God
John 8
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

The man controlled by his sin nature cannot receive the Holy Spirit.
John 14:
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The man controlled by his sin nature cannot submit to God.
Romans 8

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

We have just set doctrine. Man is indeed dead to God once he is conceived and on. Not till the day Holy Spirit Draws him to God though election does he Know and understand God.

Election is Gods love toward His bride.
God has a right to choose,
He has the Power to choose,
It is His will to Choose,
It has been shown He does elects a baby.
The Bible says he choose a nation
He choose David over his brothers.
He choose John, Peter, Paul, Mark and all the Apostles
It is showen in the past this is how God works.
no and on and on........

And yet…some say He cannot.

Sad.

In Christ...James

 

The babies were never lost. You posted this long post with a lot la de da sayings of yours not Scripture.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

(Mother was in sin)

Yo 3) While in this state a child can die and go to heaven.
According to you God then steps back in and removes salvation and replaces the sin nature we had when conceived
(Child grows up and the Law enters)
1 Corinthians 2:14:
14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

( You mean you didn't even know there was a God?)

The unsaved man which is controlled by his sin nature does not hear God
John 8
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

(He was talking to the Jews that would not receive Him when He came.) Jeepers at least put in the context.

The man controlled by his sin nature cannot receive the Holy Spirit.
John 14:
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(Who ever said the world could receive the Holy Ghost. James you make up a lot of sayings.)

The man controlled by his sin nature cannot submit to God.
Romans 8

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Simply saying you can not worship God in nature but must be in Spirit and Truth. What this has to do with what we are discussing I will never know.)

James the Bible say;
The soul that sinneth shall die, if it is already dead how can it die!!!!! b]

I agree on the last part God did choose His Apostles. It is also says that "God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever would believe on Him would not perish but have everlasting life.

You all never will overcome that one.

I am sorry you will not accept the Scripture that came right from the Lord saying about children.


KJMatt.18
10": Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

It is a dangereous thing to say little children are lost and go to hell

 

Babies sin?

Rom 3:12 All have turned away, together they have become useless; there is no one who does good, there is not even one.

How many babies you know "turn away"?

 

Say what?

come now Bob..now really. Lets look at the context and then tell me.

Psalms 51....

2Thoroughly wash me from mine iniquity, And from my sin cleanse me,

3For my transgressions I do know, And my sin [is] before me continually.

4Against Thee, Thee only, I have sinned, And done the evil thing in Thine eyes, So that Thou art righteous in Thy words, Thou art pure in Thy judging.

5Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

6Lo, truth Thou hast desired in the inward parts, And in the hidden part Wisdom Thou causest me to know.

7Thou cleansest me with hyssop and I am clean, Washest me, and than snow I am whiter.
*****************
This is the 1st time i have EVER heard anyone say this means (sin of the mother). The context does not fit. Sorry Bob.

OK...just to make sure..I'm busy today..but i just pulled 6 writers..NONE say this. Tonight i will go to Hebrew and make sure. I'm not to up on Hebrew..as a matter of fact i hate it.. But...give me a day or too and I'll report back to ya. If i'm wrong..i'll let you know.

In Christ...James

 

Babies sin?

Rom 3:12 All have turned away, together they have become useless; there is no one who does good, there is not even one.

How many babies you know "turn away"? </font>[/QUOTE]This one i happen to know. You should know all Calvinist know Romans by heart.

If you start at chapter 1..and work forward you will see Paul address each class/race/position of mankind. Chapter 3 pulls this all together and shows the state of mankind.

and as to the Babies...read what I wrote about born in sin..just above this post. No turning is needed. They are born this way. At one time I remember you (webdog) held to the doctrine of sin in this light. I you have changed.

In Christ..James

 

We are born with a sin nature, but we are not born sinning. The Bible is clear that without law, there is no sin. Babies do not have "the law" imputed to them at birth, but gain this at some point during childhood / adolescence.