Brother Bob
New Member
Thanks, I knew that wonder why didn' remember.
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Ok so I'm Reformed in my beliefs now.
- Thread starter 3John2
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Brother Bob
New Member
Thanks, I knew that wonder why didn't remember, old age I guess.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hi Brother Bob,
All verses in that post was from 1 chapter of John as stated at the beginning. Yet do not worry about following me in my writings. Its hard for me to read myself most of the time.
I do most of my posting at work, and though i work for myself, i do get in a rush and hardly check my work till later, Oh well.
You said...
You know I can give you Scripture for Scripture but why?
Yes I'm sure you can. I'm sure you have debated this for years. Sometimes it is just a misunderstanding, but most of the time there are a few points we just can not agree on. At times i get tired of it.
After a few years at it, i feel its really over one word. Now in the past i use to think it was over one word...but not the same word that I now do. I use to think the fight was over your understanding of the word election. I now know its much deeper then this. I feel its over Gods Love.
Think about that for a while and maybe we will pick it up again some day and address Gods Love.
Bob said..
I have dealt with your belief all my life and do not accept it. All other beliefs you have are very close to mine but this one thing which is a biggy. You have not changed my mine one iota and I am sure I haven't yours. So God's blessing on you and yours,
Very good then. It is good to end on a up note for a change. We agree that we disagree, and yet I call you brother.
Peace to you and yours.
In Christ...James
BTW...i love this verse you posted..
"Matthew, chapter 5
"14": Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. "
so much that i wrote a booklet based on it. Well...really it started as a look at the classic.."City of God"...this was my twist on it and the key verse.
All verses in that post was from 1 chapter of John as stated at the beginning. Yet do not worry about following me in my writings. Its hard for me to read myself most of the time.
You said...
You know I can give you Scripture for Scripture but why?
Yes I'm sure you can. I'm sure you have debated this for years. Sometimes it is just a misunderstanding, but most of the time there are a few points we just can not agree on. At times i get tired of it.
After a few years at it, i feel its really over one word. Now in the past i use to think it was over one word...but not the same word that I now do. I use to think the fight was over your understanding of the word election. I now know its much deeper then this. I feel its over Gods Love.
Think about that for a while and maybe we will pick it up again some day and address Gods Love.
Bob said..
I have dealt with your belief all my life and do not accept it. All other beliefs you have are very close to mine but this one thing which is a biggy. You have not changed my mine one iota and I am sure I haven't yours. So God's blessing on you and yours,
Very good then. It is good to end on a up note for a change. We agree that we disagree, and yet I call you brother.
Peace to you and yours.
In Christ...James
BTW...i love this verse you posted..
"Matthew, chapter 5
"14": Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. "
so much that i wrote a booklet based on it. Well...really it started as a look at the classic.."City of God"...this was my twist on it and the key verse.
Brother Bob
New Member
I think it is how we perceive the Love of God.
Tom Butler
New Member
3john2, my brother, there are a number of reasons why we all are drawn to this board.
1. We are going to find discussions on topics we never thought about before. Fresh meat to chew on.
2. We are going to see opposing positions articulated passionately and well. Weak arguments are pounced upon like a pack of coyotes on a stray sheep. Weak arguments don't survive very long.
3. We are able to test our own beliefs against withering cross-examination. If I don't have my ducks in a row I will be handed my head on a platter. Hows that for mixing metaphors.
4. It's an ego trip. I doubt if I'm the only one who likes to see my thoughts in print for the whole world to read. And, our egos get a boost when someone responds to a posted opinion. It means somebody thinks its worth paying attention to, whether it's supported or opposed. Response lend weight to what we write. See why it can be an ego trip?
5. Fellowship. We may never see each other in person, but our common faith draws us together, and we actually like the contact with fellow believers, if from afar.
And this board is like a town I used to drive through. Just outside town there was a big billboard which said "Clinton, Kentucky. Home of 1,500 happy people and one old grouch."
We have an old grouch or two here, but for the most part we have reasonably happy people.
1. We are going to find discussions on topics we never thought about before. Fresh meat to chew on.
2. We are going to see opposing positions articulated passionately and well. Weak arguments are pounced upon like a pack of coyotes on a stray sheep. Weak arguments don't survive very long.
3. We are able to test our own beliefs against withering cross-examination. If I don't have my ducks in a row I will be handed my head on a platter. Hows that for mixing metaphors.
4. It's an ego trip. I doubt if I'm the only one who likes to see my thoughts in print for the whole world to read. And, our egos get a boost when someone responds to a posted opinion. It means somebody thinks its worth paying attention to, whether it's supported or opposed. Response lend weight to what we write. See why it can be an ego trip?
5. Fellowship. We may never see each other in person, but our common faith draws us together, and we actually like the contact with fellow believers, if from afar.
And this board is like a town I used to drive through. Just outside town there was a big billboard which said "Clinton, Kentucky. Home of 1,500 happy people and one old grouch."
We have an old grouch or two here, but for the most part we have reasonably happy people.
Bill Brown
New Member
Hey...I resemble that remark!
Tom Butler
New Member
Bill, I can't resist this:
An old southern senator was engaged in heated debate and took offense at a remark by an opposing senator.
"I deny the allegation," he thundered, " and I defy the allegator!"
An old southern senator was engaged in heated debate and took offense at a remark by an opposing senator.
"I deny the allegation," he thundered, " and I defy the allegator!"
This might be what you and other calvinists say, but not what the Bible says. If you don't evangelize, you would be right, but if you share your faith with unbelievers, there could be conflict. Jesus said the world will hate us. Conflict should not be between brothers, as you have tried to make it.
You implied that everyone who is not reformed is a fear monger, so yes, indirectly you indicted me. I do not have a "guilty conscience", and only responded to your less than factual post to clear the air that calvinists and non calvinists should not be a source of "conflict". If you feel that way, you should probably look in the mirror and ask why.
Jarthur001
Active Member
A monger is a trader of goods..or maybe dealer of goods.
A warmonger has as his goods WAR and goes about starting wars
A fearmonger has as his goods FEAR and goes about speading fear.
The OP was a brother saying he had now taken on the doctrine of Calvinisim. This was soon followed by those spelling out the dangers of Calvinism. I think it is fair to say that this is some peoples goals as seen on this tread. This is not saying that all that do not hold to Calvinist teachings are spreading fear....but it is clear that some do.
Each person will need to look at their own post and deal with this on their own and with their God. One can debate without speading fear.
A warmonger has as his goods WAR and goes about starting wars
A fearmonger has as his goods FEAR and goes about speading fear.
The OP was a brother saying he had now taken on the doctrine of Calvinisim. This was soon followed by those spelling out the dangers of Calvinism. I think it is fair to say that this is some peoples goals as seen on this tread. This is not saying that all that do not hold to Calvinist teachings are spreading fear....but it is clear that some do.
Each person will need to look at their own post and deal with this on their own and with their God. One can debate without speading fear.
Calvibaptist
New Member
You know, I am so sick of this argument against Calvinism I almost can't stand it. It is as if you have never read the Bible. So, let me ask you a few questions...
When you teach kids in Sunday School, do you tell them that God is not really all-powerful (even though He claims to be) because, even though He really wants to save all the little children, He just can't because of their free wills? Because if you are going to teach them, you might as well be completely honest about what you believe. You have to go all the way and say that God is a weakling when compared to men's free will, which is absolutely sovereign. Maybe you could teach them the song, "Jesus loves me, but He's just not powerful enough to really save anyone unless they add in their own free will."
Give me a break, people. These discussions go on and on with the same arguments back and forth with no progress. Don't you people have anything better to do, like maybe spending time in prayer or Bible study or evangelism? I, for one, am tired of this...
Brother Bob
New Member
double, think they need more bandwidth.
[ May 04, 2006, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]
[ May 04, 2006, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]
Brother Bob
New Member
Being you so sick I don't know whether to try or not to answer. Have you ever read where God stepped back and let the devil try Job, did that make Him not all-powerful? Have you ever read where the crucified Jesus, did that make Him not all-powerful? Have you ever read where the Kingdom shall fall, did that make not all-powerful?
I would get sick too if I believed all were pre-chosen and was asked if all the children were "elect", for it sure would be a hard one to answer. Every once in a while you hit a wall don't you?
I would get sick too if I believed all were pre-chosen and was asked if all the children were "elect", for it sure would be a hard one to answer. Every once in a while you hit a wall don't you?
Calvibaptist
New Member
How can you read the story of Job and just see God "stepping back?" Are you a deist? Even Job recognized that all that happened to him through the agency of Satan came from the hand of God.
Job 1:18-21 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 19 "and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!" 20 Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked shall I return there. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; Blessed be the name of the LORD."
How can you read about the crucifixion and think that God "stepped back" and just let it happen? Even the apostles recognized that everything that happened did so at the sovereign decree of God.
Acts 4:24-28 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: "Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 "who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the LORD and against His Christ.' 27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."
Absolutely no idea what you are talking about. God's kingdom will never fall.
I don't believe all are pre-chosen, only some. That is what the Bible says, unless you ignore major sections of it. The Bible doesn't answer the question of children, but we've already had a thread on that.I would get sick too if I believed all were pre-chosen and was asked if all the children were "elect", for it sure would be a hard one to answer. Every once in a while you hit a wall don't you?
Well, that is my final answer on the whole C/A debate stuff for a while. I think I'll put my energy somewhere else...
Brother Bob
New Member
Calvinbaptist;
1.
Job, chapter 1
8": And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
"9": Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
"10": Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
"11": But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
"12": And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the
(Thought I would help you out a little.)
2.
John, chapter 19
"10": Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
"11": Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
3.
KJMatt.11
"12": And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth'> violence, and the violent take it by force.
You believe the "elect" were pre-chosen so that leaves the unelect chosen for damnation.
I really don't blame you for not answering about the children, sure puts a bad light on calvinism.
Glad its your final answer for they all wrong!!!!
1.
Job, chapter 1
8": And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
"9": Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
"10": Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
"11": But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
"12": And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the
(Thought I would help you out a little.)
2.
John, chapter 19
"10": Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
"11": Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
3.
KJMatt.11
"12": And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth'> violence, and the violent take it by force.
You believe the "elect" were pre-chosen so that leaves the unelect chosen for damnation.
I really don't blame you for not answering about the children, sure puts a bad light on calvinism.
Glad its your final answer for they all wrong!!!!
I really don't blame you for not answering about the children, sure puts a bad light on calvinism.
Above by Brother Bob.
answering that question is quite simple really. Being that man is born into sin and that His nature is sinful all children by right should go to hell, God allowing this is still just. Why? Because what is the just punishment for our sins? Eternal seperation from God.
Now taking that into account you have to ask yourself about God's character. Even though he would be just in condemning children would He, based on what we know about His love. No. He would not. Besides God can save children aside from there choice. John the Baptist being a prime example. The Bible says he was rightous while in his mothers womb. Did he choose to be so? No God chose Him for His purposes.
Above by Brother Bob.
answering that question is quite simple really. Being that man is born into sin and that His nature is sinful all children by right should go to hell, God allowing this is still just. Why? Because what is the just punishment for our sins? Eternal seperation from God.
Now taking that into account you have to ask yourself about God's character. Even though he would be just in condemning children would He, based on what we know about His love. No. He would not. Besides God can save children aside from there choice. John the Baptist being a prime example. The Bible says he was rightous while in his mothers womb. Did he choose to be so? No God chose Him for His purposes.
Brother Bob
New Member
cute but no cigar;
Romans, chapter 7
8": But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
"9": For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
"10": And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
"11": For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Paul must of had a time he was not held accountable.
That is what I believe about little children for we do have a God of Love.
Romans, chapter 7
8": But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
"9": For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
"10": And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
"11": For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Paul must of had a time he was not held accountable.
That is what I believe about little children for we do have a God of Love.
Brother Bob
New Member
Brother Bob
New Member
I saved that one Tim, at least you answered. I don't think your buddies will agree with your statement;
Now taking that into account you have to ask yourself about God's character. Even though he would be just in condemning children would He, based on what we know about His love. No. He would not. Besides God can save children aside from there choice. John the Baptist being a prime example. The Bible says he was rightous while in his mothers womb. Did he choose to be so? No God chose Him for His purposes.
Now taking that into account you have to ask yourself about God's character. Even though he would be just in condemning children would He, based on what we know about His love. No. He would not. Besides God can save children aside from there choice. John the Baptist being a prime example. The Bible says he was rightous while in his mothers womb. Did he choose to be so? No God chose Him for His purposes.
Brother Bob
New Member
triple
Didn't I say almost the same thing he did? There's nothing in the Bible that lays out in black and white what God does with babies or unborn who die. But God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. And I happen to believe that God will have mercy on these babies and the unborn. I may find out that I'm wrong, but whether or not I'm wrong, God is always right.
Frankly, I think the issue of what happens to babies and the unborn is a bigger problem for free-willers.
1. It violates their premise that God is a perfect gentleman who never interferes with the free will of man. By taking babies to heaven, He violates their chance to make the decision for themselves.
2. If free-willism is true, and babies and the unborn have a guaranteed ticket to heaven, then why would a loving God allow anyone to get born or reach the fictional age of accountability? Why give them a chance to make the wrong decision? Better to blow up the earth, populate heaven with whomever is saved NOW, plus all the unborn and babies, and stop this ridiculous charade.