Old or Young Earth?

[TCassidy]

You have got to be kidding. The duration of a 24 hour "day" is based on the time it takes for the earth to rotate 360 degrees. Therefore, before day 4 and the light governing the day and night, we had evenings and mornings based on something else. So the argument that evenings and mornings requires 24 hour days does not make sense.

It is clear to me we do not know, God was right when He said so in Job 38.

Look up "sidereal day". The Earth still turned on its axis at the same rate before the creation of the sun as after. It still took 24 hours to turn one turn. Therefore day 1 and day 2 were still 24 hour days even though there was no sun.

 

[Darrell C]

Quote:
[C]onsider that if Cain and Abel were born before the fall then we have men who were not subject to the curse.

Why would I consider that?

I don't know, but let take a look at what you say when you do:

Originally Posted by just-want-peace View Post
I very seriously doubt that A & E were in the garden very long, less than, oh, one month max. Or maybe just a few days?????
Why??
Glad you asked. Assuming normal passions of a loving human COUPLE (a him & a her), how long do you think it would have taken Eve to get pregnant?
But their first born (as far as we know) had the sin nature enough that he was a murderer, so he had to be concieved AFTER the fall; IMHO!
No proof of any of this, but it seems logical, sans any direct intervention by God to delay pregnancy, which is entirely possible.

I agree. I think the bottom end, two days, is more likely than the 109 year maximum. And for the same reasons you do.

By the way, I agree with both of you, lol.

It is not the subject of this discussion.

It is a point raised in the discussion.

And a point well worth at least addressing.

It is convenient for you in your creating a 25,000 year old earth, and nothing wrong with pointing out that we don't have to make an assumption about whether it was before or after the Fall when they had children. This also goes back to the fact we don't really know if Adam's duration includes his time in the Garden, because Adam is presented as not being subject to mortality when he is created. His sin brought death, and prior to that I don't see it unreasonable for speculation as to mortality beginning at the time of the fall.

Having access to the Tree of Life would have made age immaterial, which also goes back to "appearance of age."

Quote:
That is what is speculative: we do not know that Adam's lifespan starts at creation or at the time of the Fall.

So you believe the bible is wrong and that God lied

Okay, step away from the coffee machine and no-one gets hurt.

No, I am simply pointing out that to be dogmatic about things we are not sure about is rather foolish. And that could be a reason for some to greatly increase the age of the earth as seen through the genealogies, regardless of whether there are a few generations missing.

How many would you speculate were missing? It would have to be quite a lot. And we see in the genealogy you have focused on that there was a fairly consistent rate of birth about every thirty years.

If we allow a few at he rate of seventy, the longest span we are given, we would still need probably at least 400 generations missing.

And you ask me...

So you believe the bible is wrong and that God lied

...? lol

when He said in Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 5:3 "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth."

I am inclined to think it was from his creation.

Still doesn't tell us either that we can be dogmatic or how long he was actually there.

If that is the case we have no basis to continue this discussion. I do not believe God is a liar.

Just forgetful?

Let's knock it down to 200 generations missing. Still seem reasonable?

Or is it more reasonable simply to believe that any discrepancies one might find in Scripture are usually contrived discrepancies, and the critics are usually shown where they are wrong.

How many generations will you add to the genealogies in Luke and Matthew? They too are lacking to the sum of 19,000 years?

Quote:
Seth was born after Abel's death.

Yes, we all know that. Can you please try to stick to the subject?

Not sure where you feel I have gotten off topic.

That was the subject when you said...

Originally Posted by TCassidy View Post
And as Cain and Abel were probably at least 20 when Seth was born,

Their age in relation to Seth makes little difference that I see.

Quote:
And there is no reference we can dogmatically claim to show the age of his siblings.

I did not dogmatically claim anything.

You have been quite dogmatic on a number of questionable issues.

And a little condescending as well.

I listed what they were doing and opined they were probably young men at the time. Again, please try to focus on the actual discussion.

Trying.

Quote:
Simply not reasonable. Adam could have been in the Garden for a thousand years, then, his lifespan beginning at the time of the Fall.

So, again, you accuse God of being a liar.

No, just you of denying a possibility that perhaps there might be a timespan we are not aware of. Again, I am a YECer so I don't think there is, but, I am not willing to be dogmatic about it.

I guess that ends our discussion as we have no basis to continue.

Probably for the best. You seem a little tense, lol.


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

Are you a Hebrew Scholar?

I taught Hebrew at the graduate level in the Seminary where I taught for 25 years. And you?

Why would Adam not have an appearance of age?

To assign a present day phenomena to ancient Adam is to commit a serious anachronism. Compare what Adam looked like at 500 years of age and compare it to what a man looks like today at 500 years of age then tell me which one has "the appearance of age."

The dogmatic statement here is that "Scripture does not give any indication of the age of the earth," and I beg to differ...but it does. And gave my reasoning.

Please post a scripture that says "The earth is 6000 years old." Or that "the earth was created in 4004 BC." The FACT is that the bible does not say how old the earth is.

Please explain how you work in that extra 19,000 years.

I don't. If you would actually read what I write you wouldn't make such a public fool of yourself.

While I do think Adam's lifespan is that which is given and that starts at his creation, I am not going to be dogmatic about that.

So you have changed your mind and no longer believe God is a liar? Adam was made a living soul on the day of his creation and he lived 930 years total and had lived 130 years when Seth was born?

I have ignored the rest of your twaddle as being more of your seeming inability to focus on the topic.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
How do we make "an evening and a morning" longer than a 24 hour day?

God bless.

I do not know. How do you make an evening and a morning before the earth was formed on day three, and the Sun's light governing day and night on day four?

We do not know unless we do not know that we do not know.

Because the earth wasn't formed on day three. The Heavens and the earth were created on the first day.


Genesis 1King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.



On the third day God created dry land, not the planet.

and the Sun's light governing day and night on day four?

There is no need to assume a discrepancy in how time ran. The sun does not make time travel at a particular rate, it was simply created so we could take track of what God already knew, lol.

If the sun disappeared tomorrow, your clock would still run through 24 hour days.


God bless.

 

[revmwc]

Yes, that is the assumption for the purposes of this discussion.Why would I consider that? It is not the subject of this discussion.So you believe the bible is wrong and that God lied when He said in Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 5:3 "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth."

If that is the case we have no basis to continue this discussion. I do not believe God is a liar.Yes, we all know that. Can you please try to stick to the subject?
I did not dogmatically claim anything. I listed what they were doing and opined they were probably young men at the time. Again, please try to focus on the actual discussion.
So, again, you accuse God of being a liar. I guess that ends our discussion as we have no basis to continue.

We have one fact Adam didn't know Eve in that way until after the flood:

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.


Cain and Abel had come to age enough to represent themselves before God and we see


Genesis 4:
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Are you a Hebrew Scholar?

I taught Hebrew at the graduate level in the Seminary where I taught for 25 years. And you?

lol...good to know. Just wanted to know if you were or you read that somewhere.

And me, no, apparently I'm just the public fool.

Quote:
Why would Adam not have an appearance of age?

To assign a present day phenomena to ancient Adam is to commit a serious anachronism. Compare what Adam looked like at 500 years of age and compare it to what a man looks like today at 500 years of age then tell me which one has "the appearance of age."

How is someone having an appearance of age a present day phenomena?

All that was in view was that Adam was created a fully functional adult.

And you contribute to the point I made earlier in regards to Adam's access to the tree of life.

There is a difference between Adam Pre-Fall and Adam Post-Fall.

But it still remains he was created an adult.

Quote:
The dogmatic statement here is that "Scripture does not give any indication of the age of the earth," and I beg to differ...but it does. And gave my reasoning.

Please post a scripture that says "The earth is 6000 years old." Or that "the earth was created in 4004 BC." The FACT is that the bible does not say how old the earth is.

Please answer my questions.

Instead of getting defensive.

I don't have to say the earth is 6,000 years old, and not sure I have actually said that (but I do believe the earth is just under 6,000 years old, by the way, in case I haven't).

And my view maintains the minimum of what can be accounted for through Scripture.

You mock Usher and apparently consider yourself much smarter than he, but just how smart is it to add so much time to the record of Scripture?

And then refuse even to address questions about it?

And you ask me...

So you believe the bible is wrong and that God lied

...?

Quote:
Please explain how you work in that extra 19,000 years.

I don't. If you would actually read what I write you wouldn't make such a public fool of yourself.

I will not say I don't make a fool of myself at times, that is a given.

But at least I can stand behind what I say.

Are you now saying you don't believe the earth may be 25,000 years old?

Quote:
While I do think Adam's lifespan is that which is given and that starts at his creation, I am not going to be dogmatic about that.

So you have changed your mind and no longer believe God is a liar?

I am thinking we have had and exchange before and you are still upset about it.

The only thing that explains your behavior.

What I haven't changed my mind about is that I believe it within reasonable possibility that Adam may have been in the Garden for a certain duration, and that his lifespan could begin at the Fall. I don't embrace that view, but I am not dogmatic about it.

Not sure why that is so hard to understand.

Adam was made a living soul on the day of his creation and he lived 930 years total and had lived 130 years when Seth was born?

Again, Adam had access to the Tree of Life which could make a difference.

Adam was not subject to death in the Garden, that was only possible after the Fall.

Pretty simple concept. Easier than presenting Scripture as so ridiculously off.

I have ignored the rest of your twaddle

Good thing for you, likely. Then there would be two of us making fools of ourselves in public.

as being more of your seeming inability to focus on the topic.

Some good points made and you know it.

So is it okay if I am dogmatic about you believing the earth is 25,000 years old, and that you are dogmatic that there is quite a lot of history that didn't make it into the Bible?

Okay.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I disagree. You do not plan to redeem something unless you intend to sell it to start with, 1 Peter 1:18-20, I believe Adam was created, a living soul, flesh and blood, carnal sold under sin.

It was God who created. It was God who planted a garden. It was God who put the man in the garden. It was God who took the woman from the man. God knew who lurked, in the garden. That would make a great title for a song.

1 John 3:8 Why was the Son of God manifested?

Adam and Eve were the means through which God would send his Son, to destroy the devil and his works, the primary work being the death, of which Adam's would be redeemed from and adopted as sons of God, incorruptible for eternity.

I believe old earth because I believe God from Genesis 1:3-31 began his plan relative to the devil and his works, that proceeded verse 3.

So you think that Adam and Eve had children soon because they would have had a desire like unto fallen man's?


God bless.

 

[revmwc]

Next we know this:

Genesis 2
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

So how long would it take to name every beast of the field and every fowl of the air?

After he had named them all the God did this:

Genesis 2:
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.


Then Eve was created, that would mean Adam was older than Eve. By how much however long it would take to name all the species of beast and fowls.

 

[revmwc]

We see:

Genesis 5
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Now based on what we saw in Chapter 4 how old would Cain have been? When Seth was born after Cain how many years!

 

[Darrell C]

We have one fact Adam didn't know Eve in that way until after the flood:

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.


Cain and Abel had come to age enough to represent themselves before God and we see


Genesis 4:
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Did you mean to say "Flood?"

Or Fall?


God bless.

 

[Dolour]

enjoy...

 

[Darrell C]

enjoy...

Enjoy what? lol


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

wass not the hebew word chosen by god for Day though refer a vast majority of time to 24 hr time period, as he could have had Moses use another term in meant extended time period?

 

[Darrell C]

When Creation was spoken of here...

Exodus 20:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


...we see that the two are correlated. We have seven days in both. The days for the week would be identical to the days for Creation.

God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

When Creation was spoken of here...

Exodus 20:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


...we see that the two are correlated. We have seven days in both. The days for the week would be identical to the days for Creation.

God bless.

 

[Dolour]

Enjoy what? lol
God bless.

Click the link and youll see...
Pastor Billy does a great job digging out all kinds of information.
His series on the young earth is quite informative.
Ocean salinity, c14 levels in the athmosphere, presence of short term comets, sedimentation, radiation halos in rocks...
There a TON of stuff that can be scientifically verified, which strongly point towards an instant creation, that cannot be older than just a couple thousand years.

 

[Yeshua1]

Almost all of the evidence does indeed point towards a younget than later creation date, but many who want to accomodate Evolution in the church just are choosing to try to blend the dating to get those long time periods, as they tend to see theistic evolution as being "proven"

 

[TCassidy]

wass not the hebew word chosen by god for Day though refer a vast majority of time to 24 hr time period, as he could have had Moses use another term in meant extended time period?

Yes. When used with a numerical adjective the Hebrew word "Yom" always means a literal 24 hour day.

 

[Dolour]

Almost all of the evidence does indeed point towards a younget than later creation date, but many who want to accomodate Evolution in the church just are choosing to try to blend the dating to get those long time periods, as they tend to see theistic evolution as being "proven"

The sad thing is that they dont even seem to realize the damage they cause by compromising with the evolutionists, where theres absolutely no need to.
In fact, the exact opposite is the case, and you can rub some of the evidence into the evolutionists face...
One of the wonderful discoveries ive made, is that honest science is totally in-line with a literal interpretation of the genesis account, something i wouldnt have considered to be true in my wildest dreams.
Twisting that to suit ones own convictions cant do any good...
If you undermine the literacy of the Bible, you open a Pandoras Box, where all sorts of bad things are goina come out of.
Look at where were at, ppl dont believe in actual "magic" anymore, even tho theres noumerous warnings regarding it in the Bible,
ppl interpret Genesis 6 as some sort of "spiritual business", the warnings in Ephesians 6:12 is completely disregarded for simmilar reasons, etc, the list goes on and on...
Satan did a horrendeously good job on the 3 "D's" from Genesis.

/edit: I just recon this thread has been moved to a "Baptist only" section, guess im out to not violate any forum rules.

 

[Darrell C]

Click the link and youll see...
Pastor Billy does a great job digging out all kinds of information.
His series on the young earth is quite informative.
Ocean salinity, c14 levels in the athmosphere, presence of short term comets, sedimentation, radiation halos in rocks...
There a TON of stuff that can be scientifically verified, which strongly point towards an instant creation, that cannot be older than just a couple thousand years.

Oh, okay, lol. Sometimes the links are hard to see if not emboldened. I will check it out.

God bless.