Old or Young Earth?

[just-want-peace]

I very seriously doubt that A & E were in the garden very long, less than, oh, one month max. Or maybe just a few days?????
Why??
Glad you asked. Assuming normal passions of a loving human COUPLE (a him & a her:thumbs, how long do you think it would have taken Eve to get pregnant?:laugh:
But their first born (as far as we know) had the sin nature enough that he was a murderer, so he had to be concieved AFTER the fall; IMHO!
No proof of any of this, but it seems logical, sans any direct intervention by God to delay pregnancy, which is entirely possible.

 

[TCassidy]

I very seriously doubt that A & E were in the garden very long, less than, oh, one month max. Or maybe just a few days?????
Why??
Glad you asked. Assuming normal passions of a loving human COUPLE (a him & a her:thumbs, how long do you think it would have taken Eve to get pregnant?:laugh:
But their first born (as far as we know) had the sin nature enough that he was a murderer, so he had to be concieved AFTER the fall; IMHO!
No proof of any of this, but it seems logical, sans any direct intervention by God to delay pregnancy, which is entirely possible.

I agree. I think the bottom end, two days, is more likely than the 109 year maximum. And for the same reasons you do.

 

[HankD]

YEC.

However I would entertain time compression and/or decompression along with "markers" (my terminology).

It is very difficult to think "out of the box" when it comes to Modern Physics (which I have taken) concerning the rate of time passage as all we know is our little time slice here on earth.

Think of a video taken to watch an individual as he/she works an eight hour day.

Then run the video at high speed so that it only runs for an hour.

It took an hour to view the complete day of work although it took eight hours for the individual you have watched to complete it.

For a crude definition of a "marker" - Think of a 20$ gold piece. It was worth 20 dollars in the early 1900's but about 1600 dollars today - it all depends on the "marker" you choose. In 1908 - value - 20 US dollars, In 2015 - 1600 US dollars.

What then is the chosen "marker" for the time passage in Genesis 1? During Moses days?

Its difficult to put these double components of time together (Plus throw entropy into the menu as one brother has mention) and then unravel that time in today's value.

It is a given that you must choose to believe that C is not a constant which (if you believe it) will you have stamped with the same stigmata as even mentioning "intelligent design" in our antichrist schools of higher learning (although a few years ago Scientific American ran an article C Is Not a Constant).

This is why I have no problem at all with anyone's explanation (even creative evolutionists) concerning creation as long as they attribute the Intelligent Designer (The Triune God) with the work of His fingers).

Psalm 8
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Besides - God is eternal, therefore eternity /2.5 billion years or eternity/6000 years are both zero.


HankD

 

[OldRegular]

I believe the earth is older than the young earth creationists claim, and younger than the old earth claims.

Interesting observation! You might find the information presented by Robert L. Whitelaw in the book Why Not Creation?, Walter E. Lammerts, editor. I doubt the book is still in print but it should be in a college library or a good local library!

 

[HankD]

oops should have said eternity, not zero in my former post.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

Outstanding post, great explanations, Hank.

 

[Darrell C]

Exactly RevMWC! If we assume the Jewish Calendar accurately presents creation occurring in 7 24 hour days, then we have a young earth. Others assume the days of creation are indeterminate intervals, and therefore we have an old earth.

Scripture (Job 38) says we were not there and do not know.

How do we make "an evening and a morning" longer than a 24 hour day?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

<sigh>

lol...poor thing.

If Adam's children were born after the fall,

If?


Genesis 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.



Now, this reasoning might make you sigh, lol, but consider that if Cain and Abel were born before the fall then we have men who were not subject to the curse.

Men are born separated from God after Adam:


Romans 5:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:



Cain and Abel would have been innocent of Adam's disobedience, and the deception of Eve if they were already living.

and Seth was born when Adam was 130 years old, how could Adam have spent more than 130 years in the Garden before the fall?

That is rather easy to explain: because he lived in the Garden and had access to the tree of life.

That is what is speculative: we do not know that Adam's lifespan starts at creation or at the time of the Fall.


Genesis 5

King James Version (KJV)

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:



Nothing in this gives us a relation to the Fall.

And as Cain and Abel were probably at least 20 when Seth was born,

Seth was born after Abel's death.

And there is no reference we can dogmatically claim to show the age of his siblings.

then Adam could not have been in the Garden prior to the fall for more than 110 years (130-20=110), subtract another year for the duration of Eve's pregnancy and you get (110-1=109). QED

Simply not reasonable. Adam could have been in the Garden for a thousand years, then, his lifespan beginning at the time of the Fall.

It is good speculation, I'll grant you that, and admit it is a possible scenario, but, there is nothing you have given which makes it a certainty that Adam was created, then lived 109 years before Seth was born.

There is nothing that makes it possible to place Cain and Abel as being twenty when Seth was born (particularly when one of them had been murdered).

That remains a variable which could be considered by old earth proponents and not something either side could be dogmatic about.

I'm not going to speculate about how much time there was in the Garden before the Fall, and don't see that it really plays a critical role in the Age of the Earth. We have the set point of Creation followed by genealogies by which we can approximate how old the earth is.

As a YECer, I take that route. If someone wants to embrace an old earth, the only interest I have is how they reconcile that to Scripture.

And as I said, your view of 25,000 years would really make you more of a YECer than an old earther.

Still curious as to how you could consider the genealogies to be off, by true YEC standard, roughly 19,000 years.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Then in light of current, and even past "Old Earth" classification, I would classify you as a YECer, lol.


God bless.

Tell that to the young earthers.

I'm a YEC and I see it as falling into a YEC standard, as opposed to the duration ascribed by Evolutionists and even Theistic Evolutionists, who place it in at least the millions.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I very seriously doubt that A & E were in the garden very long, less than, oh, one month max. Or maybe just a few days?????
Why??
Glad you asked. Assuming normal passions of a loving human COUPLE (a him & a her:thumbs, how long do you think it would have taken Eve to get pregnant?:laugh:
But their first born (as far as we know) had the sin nature enough that he was a murderer, so he had to be concieved AFTER the fall; IMHO!
No proof of any of this, but it seems logical, sans any direct intervention by God to delay pregnancy, which is entirely possible.

You have kind of destroyed your reasoning, lol.

I agree, Cain and Abel would have been born after the Fall, which while we see an exception to chronological order in regards to the Fall (which is an important exception since the Bible has as a primary focus the Fall), the birth of children appears to be listed as after the Fall.

Moral of the story? Glad you asked: don't have kids, they're nothing but trouble.

Just kidding.

Besides, many married couples put off having kids.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I agree. I think the bottom end, two days, is more likely than the 109 year maximum. And for the same reasons you do.

Don't forget that Adam and Eve were not exactly like us in our thinking. There is a distinction pre-Fall and post.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

YEC.

However I would entertain time compression and/or decompression along with "markers" (my terminology).

It is very difficult to think "out of the box" when it comes to Modern Physics (which I have taken) concerning the rate of time passage as all we know is our little time slice here on earth.

Think of a video taken to watch an individual as he/she works an eight hour day.

Then run the video at high speed so that it only runs for an hour.

It took an hour to view the complete day of work although it took eight hours for the individual you have watched to complete it.

For a crude definition of a "marker" - Think of a 20$ gold piece. It was worth 20 dollars in the early 1900's but about 1600 dollars today - it all depends on the "marker" you choose. In 1908 - value - 20 US dollars, In 2015 - 1600 US dollars.

What then is the chosen "marker" for the time passage in Genesis 1? During Moses days?

Its difficult to put these double components of time together (Plus throw entropy into the menu as one brother has mention) and then unravel that time in today's value.

It is a given that you must choose to believe that C is not a constant which (if you believe it) will you have stamped with the same stigmata as even mentioning "intelligent design" in our antichrist schools of higher learning (although a few years ago Scientific American ran an article C Is Not a Constant).

This is why I have no problem at all with anyone's explanation (even creative evolutionists) concerning creation as long as they attribute the Intelligent Designer (The Triune God) with the work of His fingers).

Psalm 8
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Besides - God is eternal, therefore eternity /2.5 billion years or eternity/6000 years are both zero.


HankD

While it is true that time is irrelevant to God in the eternal perspective, it is not true that it is irrelevant to man and the Record of Scripture. Scripture gives us these genealogies for a reason, which may not be to track time, but, we see that time plays a distinct role in Prophecy.

And specific timespans can be seen, such as the time the Hebrew People would be in Egypt, for example. Another would be the duration of the Tribulation, which is founded in the duration of the Seventy Weeks.

So we can't deny the role that specific periods have in Scripture. And when it comes to the genealogies, we are, I believe, given an accurate portrayal which allows us to gauge the time the earth has been here. And it just seems that it is a little speculative to add to that time significantly.

But, it is an interesting discussion, and always glad to see the thoughts of others on this. I have already learned something, which is the relation of Seth's death to that of Abraham. That is a good one, lol.


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

If?

Yes, that is the assumption for the purposes of this discussion.

[C]onsider that if Cain and Abel were born before the fall then we have men who were not subject to the curse.

Why would I consider that? It is not the subject of this discussion.

That is what is speculative: we do not know that Adam's lifespan starts at creation or at the time of the Fall.

So you believe the bible is wrong and that God lied when He said in Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 5:3 "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth."

If that is the case we have no basis to continue this discussion. I do not believe God is a liar.

Seth was born after Abel's death.

Yes, we all know that. Can you please try to stick to the subject?

And there is no reference we can dogmatically claim to show the age of his siblings.

I did not dogmatically claim anything. I listed what they were doing and opined they were probably young men at the time. Again, please try to focus on the actual discussion.

Simply not reasonable. Adam could have been in the Garden for a thousand years, then, his lifespan beginning at the time of the Fall.

So, again, you accuse God of being a liar. I guess that ends our discussion as we have no basis to continue.

 

[Van]

How do we make "an evening and a morning" longer than a 24 hour day?

God bless.

I do not know. How do you make an evening and a morning before the earth was formed on day three, and the Sun's light governing day and night on day four?

We do not know unless we do not know that we do not know.

 

[OldRegular]

YEC.

However I would entertain time compression and/or decompression along with "markers" (my terminology).

It is very difficult to think "out of the box" when it comes to Modern Physics (which I have taken) concerning the rate of time passage as all we know is our little time slice here on earth.

Think of a video taken to watch an individual as he/she works an eight hour day.

Then run the video at high speed so that it only runs for an hour.

It took an hour to view the complete day of work although it took eight hours for the individual you have watched to complete it.

For a crude definition of a "marker" - Think of a 20$ gold piece. It was worth 20 dollars in the early 1900's but about 1600 dollars today - it all depends on the "marker" you choose. In 1908 - value - 20 US dollars, In 2015 - 1600 US dollars.

What then is the chosen "marker" for the time passage in Genesis 1? During Moses days?

Its difficult to put these double components of time together (Plus throw entropy into the menu as one brother has mention) and then unravel that time in today's value.

It is a given that you must choose to believe that C is not a constant which (if you believe it) will you have stamped with the same stigmata as even mentioning "intelligent design" in our antichrist schools of higher learning (although a few years ago Scientific American ran an article C Is Not a Constant).

This is why I have no problem at all with anyone's explanation (even creative evolutionists) concerning creation as long as they attribute the Intelligent Designer (The Triune God) with the work of His fingers).

Psalm 8
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Besides - God is eternal, therefore eternity /2.5 billion years or eternity/6000 years are both zero.


HankD

I knew evolutionists had vivid/creative imaginations but did not realize that anything such as a "creative evolutionist" existed!

 

[percho]

Don't forget that Adam and Eve were not exactly like us in our thinking. There is a distinction pre-Fall and post.


God bless.

I disagree. You do not plan to redeem something unless you intend to sell it to start with, 1 Peter 1:18-20, I believe Adam was created, a living soul, flesh and blood, carnal sold under sin.

It was God who created. It was God who planted a garden. It was God who put the man in the garden. It was God who took the woman from the man. God knew who lurked, in the garden. That would make a great title for a song.

1 John 3:8 Why was the Son of God manifested?

Adam and Eve were the means through which God would send his Son, to destroy the devil and his works, the primary work being the death, of which Adam's would be redeemed from and adopted as sons of God, incorruptible for eternity.

I believe old earth because I believe God from Genesis 1:3-31 began his plan relative to the devil and his works, that proceeded verse 3.

 

[percho]

I do not know. How do you make an evening and a morning before the earth was formed on day three, and the Sun's light governing day and night on day four?

We do not know unless we do not know that we do not know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
How do we make "an evening and a morning" longer than a 24 hour day?

God bless.


I see the evening and morning of day one, two and three, before the sun began to set, time on day four, just as the day of 24 hours that Jesus spoke of in John 11:9 and 10.

There it is obvious to me that walking in the twelve hour day is walking with God and tp walk in the night, is walking with the devil. The night also being twelve hours. The same light and darkness of John 1 and of Acts 26:18

 

[TCassidy]

I do not know. How do you make an evening and a morning before the earth was formed on day three, and the Sun's light governing day and night on day four?

We do not know unless we do not know that we do not know.

Light was the first thing created. It is not unreasonable to believe that light was gathered into a point source prior to the creation of the "great lights" the sun and moon.

If the original created light was universal, that is without a point source but was all around, the day would still have been based on the rotation of the Earth as a sidereal day is from a point in space to that point in space regardless of the existence of a primary or light source.

 

[Van]

You have got to be kidding. The duration of a 24 hour "day" is based on the time it takes for the earth to rotate 360 degrees. Therefore, before day 4 and the light governing the day and night, we had evenings and mornings based on something else. So the argument that evenings and mornings requires 24 hour days does not make sense.

It is clear to me we do not know, God was right when He said so in Job 38.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by TCassidy View Post
If Adam's children were born after the fall,

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
If?

Yes, that is the assumption for the purposes of this discussion.

And that the point, assumption has to be made because there are points we don't know.

Yet you are in the habit of making dogmatic conclusions:

I also know the gap theory is impossible for several reasons. The first is the Hebrew grammar of Genesis 1.

Are you a Hebrew Scholar?

No, he didn't have the appearance of age. He was created fit for the purpose of his creation. You (wrongly) assume that God's method of creation parallels man's process of procreation. And that is false.

Why would Adam not have an appearance of age?

Everyone has an appearance of age. It is you who are denying an appearance of age and wrongly implying a parallel to procreation. We are not told God created a fetus or a baby...but a man.

As a man he would have had an appearance of age.

Where does the Scripture give any indication of the age of the Earth?

The dogmatic statement here is that "Scripture does not give any indication of the age of the earth," and I beg to differ...but it does. And gave my reasoning.

Originally Posted by TCassidy View Post
The earth is older than the 6000 years proffered by the young earth creationists.

Because you find Usher's calculations wrong...you know this?

Please explain how you work in that extra 19,000 years.

Very strong argument. Did Shem outlive Abraham or not?

Simply a weak argument built on speculation on your part.

There is nothing unusual in the concept of them being contemporaries.

Cain and Able were old enough to work the fields, herd the cattle, and offer sacrifices to God so let's assign an arbitrary age of 20 to them. As Seth was born when Adam was 130 (with the assumption there were other children born after Abel and before Seth - let's not rehash "where did Cain get his wife" but it seems obvious she was nearer than 100 years to his age) so subtracting the 20 years of the age of Cain we get year 110. Therefore the fall had to occur earlier than year c109 (110 minus the 9 months gestation period for Seth).

So, the fall occurred somewhere between day 9 and year 109.

Assumption? Or dogmatic?

Because the closed chronology of Genesis 11 would assign only 300 years to the entire list.

But why would this be reason to add 19,000 years to the times we are given?

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
That's in regards to the Fall, but that does not indicate how long Adam was in the Garden prior to that.

Yes, it does. He could not have been in the Garden prior to the fall for less than 2 days (day 8 minus day 6) or longer than 109 years (for the reasons previously explained).

Seems pretty dogmatic to me. While I do think Adam's lifespan is that which is given and that starts at his creation, I am not going to be dogmatic about that.

Here is an assumption to think about: Chapter Two does not have to be held as occurring in one day. Meaning, we don't expect that Adam named all of the animals in one day, though it is possible, since likely animals would have been condensed in one area at creation (another assumption).

Now here is the point: we also assume Adam named the animals prior to the fall (with the exception of the platypus, which would have occurred after the mutative process began after the flood which likely had astrological events such as that seen in the evidence of the Chicxulub crater (hey assumption is fun!)).

Let's go back to that if:

Originally Posted by TCassidy View Post
If Adam's children were born after the fall,

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
If?

Yes, that is the assumption for the purposes of this discussion.

Does this line up with the dogmatic views presented above?

Not always...

Originally Posted by just-want-peace View Post
I very seriously doubt that A & E were in the garden very long, less than, oh, one month max. Or maybe just a few days?????
Why??
Glad you asked. Assuming normal passions of a loving human COUPLE (a him & a her), how long do you think it would have taken Eve to get pregnant?
But their first born (as far as we know) had the sin nature enough that he was a murderer, so he had to be concieved AFTER the fall; IMHO!
No proof of any of this, but it seems logical, sans any direct intervention by God to delay pregnancy, which is entirely possible.

I agree. I think the bottom end, two days, is more likely than the 109 year maximum. And for the same reasons you do.

Do we really need to assume their children came after the Fall?

So is it not a reasonable assumption that there was a period after Creation and before the Fall...that lies unaccounted for?

Can we say dogmatically that Adam's lifespan does not begin after the Fall?

I think it unlikely, but will not be dogmatic about it.

Continued...