Omniscience

[revmwc]

If God knew everything before he created it then why was He repentant that He ever created man? In other words if there was no other possible outcome and God knew it why be repented when it happens?
Gen 6:6
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Does this say God didn't know it would happen? No, it says He repented had a change of mind, that He had created man. But he also saw Noah and Noah found Grace or salvation from God and God made a plan to save mankind. Nothing in this says God was shocked or surprised, He knew it would happen but Moses put it into human terms the only way he knew how to term it. God knew and He also knew about Noah and the other 7.

 

[freeatlast]

Did God allow or cause Lucifer to become prideful? God allowed it and that pride was sin.
Did God command Adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and then Adam told Eve? Yes that happened. Did God allow Adam and Eve to make a choice to eat or not to eat, but told them there would be consciquences for eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Yes God allowed them volition to pick and choose. Did God cause them to sin no, did God want them to sin no, did God know what they would do before they did it yes. Which means He could have stopped them had He wanted to but it was in His plan for man, as was sending Christ to pay for all mankinds sin. When Christ took our sin upon Himself the issue became one of a Son issue, do have you placed your faith in Him for salvation or have you not? Those who end up seperated from God for eternity made that choice, they chose to reject Christ after hearing the Gospel. God did not interfere with their volition since volition is one of the Divine institution that man has.

Perhaps one problem is with semantics and the word allow, permit (permissive will). To permit sounds like giving permission and the same with allow. However we are a people of laws, but just because everyone is not shackled to keep them from breaking the law does not mean law breaking is done by permission. We are given the right to obey them but to have that right we have to have the freedom to exercise that right and with it comes the possibility we will not obey. it is not permisive will of the law that brings law breaking. It is willful disobediance on the part of the law breaker.
The law gives its boundaries and because we are able (call it free will if you like) break the law it does not constitute allowing of the infraction nor does it destroy the sovereignty of the law.
The same with God. He gave laws and man breaks them. The breaking does not dissolve His sovereignty and neither does the breaking come by Him allowing or as some say permissible will. The law breaking is because of rebellion, against His sovereign will and done without any permissibility.
He remains sovereign and proves it with judgement or forgiveness which also depends on our choice.

 

[freeatlast]

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Does this say God didn't know it would happen? No, it says He repented had a change of mind, that He had created man. But he also saw Noah and Noah found Grace or salvation from God and God made a plan to save mankind. Nothing in this says God was shocked or surprised, He knew it would happen but Moses put it into human terms the only way he knew how to term it. God knew and He also knew about Noah and the other 7.

When did he see? It was after it happened and while it was happening. To change His mind clearly shows there was a time He had another mind or understanding even if you want to go into the eons of eternity.

 

[Skandelon]

Maybe you are both amyraldian?

http://www.theopedia.com/Amyraldism

They are commonly referred to a 4 pointers.

If you think I'm a 4 pointer, then you don't know me very well.

 

[MB]

Did God allow or cause Lucifer to become prideful? God allowed it and that pride was sin.

By this reasoning it seems you are saying that God had a hand in the sin of Satan.

The only thing God allowed was Satan's choice He didn't allow the sin. I'm sure Satan must have known the consequence. The consequence is God's preventive measure.

Did God command Adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and then Adam told Eve? Yes that happened. Did God allow Adam and Eve to make a choice to eat or not to eat, but told them there would be consciquences for eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Yes God allowed them volition to pick and choose. Did God cause them to sin no, did God want them to sin no, did God know what they would do before they did it yes. Which means He could have stopped them had He wanted to but it was in His plan for man, as was sending Christ to pay for all mankinds sin. When Christ took our sin upon Himself the issue became one of a Son issue, do have you placed your faith in Him for salvation or have you not? Those who end up seperated from God for eternity made that choice, they chose to reject Christ after hearing the Gospel. God did not interfere with their volition since volition is one of the Divine institution that man has.

This last portion of your post I agree with. It places the responsibility where it belongs, on man. The only thing God has allowed is man's frewill choice.
MB

 

[annsni]

If God does not know the future, why is there prophecy of the future in the Bible? Why is it that we can see all through the Old Testament details about Jesus' coming, life and death? If God cannot see into the future, how would He do that?

 

[freeatlast]

If God does not know the future, why is there prophecy of the future in the Bible? Why is it that we can see all through the Old Testament details about Jesus' coming, life and death? If God cannot see into the future, how would He do that?

Because those things He ordains/predestines.

 

[revmwc]

By this reasoning it seems you are saying that God had a hand in the sin of Satan.

The only thing God allowed was Satan's choice He didn't allow the sin. I'm sure Satan must have known the consequence. The consequence is God's preventive measure.

MB

That was my point God allowed Satan to make the choice to sin.

 

[freeatlast]

That was my point God allowed Satan to make the choice to sin.

Again I think it is incorrect to say God allowed because of semantics. We have laws, but the government or the law does not allow us to break the law. It is totally one sided. We just break them without being allowed. The same I think is with how God is working. He says do or don’t do this and we choose one way or the other. It has nothing to do with Him allowing as that seems to suggest some involvement on His part even if that involvement is no action.

 

[webdog]

There needs to be an "other", "mystery" or "don't know" option to this poll. Of course omniscience is an attribute only God has, but being finite...we cannot understand the hypostatic union and Christ not knowing the day or hour of His return. You cannot separate His divinity from his humanity...hence the only option that anyone can choose, IMO is you don't know or it is a mystery. We cannot state emphatically without a shadow of a doubt we know what God knows. That presumes we are on par with His thinking...and I for one will not go that route.

 

[revmwc]

Again I think it is incorrect to say God allowed because of semantics. We have laws, but the government or the law does not allow us to break the law. It is totally one sided. We just break them without being allowed. The same I think is with how God is working. He says do or don’t do this and we choose one way or the other. It has nothing to do with Him allowing as that seems to suggest some involvement on His part even if that involvement is no action.

My brother is the perfect example of the permissive will or the allowing someone to do something even though you might not approve. He was going on his senior trip and the trip was near the beach. He had an ear operation and had told he couldn't swim, he had asked his DR. if he could surf and was told yes. When Dad talked to him, he told him not to go surfing that if he did it may be the last thing he did. Dad didn't say you can't go he advised him not to go. Well my brother went and he drowned that day, so was that Dad's fault for allowing him to go on the trip or my brothers error in judgement that cost him his life? He was allowed by the school officials to get off of the bus, he was allowed to rent a surf board. He made the decision and wasn't told no he couldn't do it. Just as Satan was allowed to become prideful, his decision, just as Adam ate of the tree, his choice, both were allowed by God to make that choice.

 

[freeatlast]

My brother is the perfect example of the permissive will or the allowing someone to do something even though you might not approve. He was going on his senior trip and the trip was near the beach. He had an ear operation and had told he couldn't swim, he had asked his DR. if he could surf and was told yes. When Dad talked to him, he told him not to go surfing that if he did it may be the last thing he did. Dad didn't say you can't go he advised him not to go. Well my brother went and he drowned that day, so was that Dad's fault for allowing him to go on the trip or my brothers error in judgement that cost him his life? He was allowed by the school officials to get off of the bus, he was allowed to rent a surf board. He made the decision and wasn't told no he couldn't do it. Just as Satan was allowed to become prideful, his decision, just as Adam ate of the tree, his choice, both were allowed by God to make that choice.

I understand what you are saying, but the commands of God are not suggestions or advise. They are set in stone commands and there is no exceptions given. I see the sin of man carried out without any permissible will of God as I feel claiming permissible will from His side puts some of the blame on Him because the idea is He could have stopped it and then we are back to sovereignty , but at this point it is possibly more a debate of semantics.

 

[revmwc]

I understand what you are saying, but the commands of God are not suggestions or advise. They are set in stone commands and there is no exceptions given. I see the sin of man carried out without any permissible will of God as I feel claiming permissible will from His side puts some of the blame on Him because the idea is He could have stopped it and then we are back to sovereignty , but at this point it is possibly more a debate of semantics.

God commanded Adam not eat of the tree and he did. God's command was set in stone there. But Adam ate from it so where do you put blame on God for that?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

If you think I'm a 4 pointer, then you don't know me very well.

I don't know you very well.

 

[jbh28]

Again I think it is incorrect to say God allowed because of semantics. We have laws, but the government or the law does not allow us to break the law.

problem with the example is that the government can't stop people from breaking the law. I'm about to head to church. I can run 80 mph and they can't prevent me from doing that. Now God can. God is all powerful and can stop sin. He could have not allowed sin to happen in the first place. So if God doesn't allow sin, either He didn't know about it or was unable to stop it.
Allowed means more than just having permission.

It is totally one sided. We just break them without being allowed. The same I think is with how God is working. He says do or don’t do this and we choose one way or the other. It has nothing to do with Him allowing as that seems to suggest some involvement on His part even if that involvement is no action.

If I can stop something from happening(power) but don't, I have allowed it to happen. I could have stopped it but didn't. God has all knowledge(I'm shocked that baptists here are denying that) of all events of all time. It's not a mystery. The Bible is VERY clear on this.

 

[webdog]

Yeah jbh...the hypostatic union and everything associated with it is not a mystery

 

[MB]

problem with the example is that the government can't stop people from breaking the law. I'm about to head to church. I can run 80 mph and they can't prevent me from doing that. Now God can. God is all powerful and can stop sin. He could have not allowed sin to happen in the first place. So if God doesn't allow sin, either He didn't know about it or was unable to stop it.
Allowed means more than just having permission.

The basic meaning of the word is distorted by your anaology. Which is no surprize to me, Calvinist always pervert the meaning of words. God will not prevent you from doing 80 MPH either but that doesn't in anyway mean that He allows it. We are commanded to obey our government laws

If I can stop something from happening(power) but don't, I have allowed it to happen. I could have stopped it but didn't. God has all knowledge(I'm shocked that baptists here are denying that) of all events of all time. It's not a mystery. The Bible is VERY clear on this.

Bologna! Why should God stop us from committing sin when it's our responsibility to keep the commandments. Must you blame God for your sins. Some say the devil made them do it, but not you God let you sin by allowing you too. How convenient.
MB

 

[Winman]

double post

 

[Winman]

The basic meaning of the word is distorted by your anaology. Which is no surprize to me, Calvinist always pervert the meaning of words. God will not prevent you from doing 80 MPH either but that doesn't in anyway mean that He allows it. We are commanded to obey our government laws

Bologna! Why should God stop us from committing sin when it's our responsibility to keep the commandments. Must you blame God for your sins. Some say the devil made them do it, but not you God let you sin by allowing you too. How convenient.
MB

Great question MB! Why should your mommy make your bed when you are 25 years old and still living at home?

How could we willingly be obedient if God stopped everyone from sinning? There would be no sin, but it would be meaningless. There would be no personal responsibility.

 

[jbh28]

Yeah jbh...the hypostatic union and everything associated with it is not a mystery

I wasn't saying that it's not a mystery, I'm saying that God being omniscient isn't a mystery. Phil 2:8-9 teach that God put aside some things by humbling himself. One thing we know is that He gave up the ability to be eternal(he died). We can also conclude that some knowledge he gave up. Exactly how all this works we don't know. That's the mystery. But saying that God doesn't now everything isn't a mystery, it's denying Scripture.