Omniscience

[jbh28]

The basic meaning of the word is distorted by your anaology. [elementary comment removed] God will not prevent you from doing 80 MPH either but that doesn't in anyway mean that He allows it. We are commanded to obey our government laws

Bologna! Why should God stop us from committing sin when it's our responsibility to keep the commandments. Must you blame God for your sins. Some say the devil made them do it, but not you God let you sin by allowing you too. How convenient.
MB

I'm not blaming God. My example is fine and I'm not changing the meaning of the word. You are limiting the meaning to one definition. Words have multiple meanings.
If there is something that happens, and I could stop it and don't, then in that sense, I have allowed the event to happen by not stopping it. Nobody is blaming God(or at least nobody should be). I'm responsible for my sin, not God.

Yes, God allowed by to sin. Not gave me permission to sin, but permitted it to happen by not stopping it.

 

[Luke2427]

I believe in the Bible rather than the traditions of men, so I believe God is Omniscient, with Omniscience being defined as God knows everything He has chosen to know, which is consistent with all scripture, contextually considered. Calvinisms view is simply unbiblical.

Then let's be very clear. You do not believe what the Church has believed for nearly two thousand years. You are not an orthodox Christian.

You cannot FIND a reputable systematic theology in church history that is not Pinnock-like HERESY to agree with your position.

Let's be VERY clear. You do NOT at ALL even REMOTELY believe in omniscience as Christians have defined it for CENTURIES.

Are you comfortable with that?

Does that concern you at all?

Or are you so arrogant that what the Church has believed for two thousand years has no bearing on you?

 

[Luke2427]

Thank you for posting actual support, for Omniscience!

Psalm 147:5 ESV
5 Great is our Lord, and abundant in power;
his understanding is beyond measure.


This says God's understanding (cognitive knowledge) is beyond measure. Since nothing is beyond the measure of God, what this says is His knowledge is beyond what we can measure, way bigger than we can comprehend. It provides no specifics. So no support for God knows everything we can imagine. To make that claim requires an assumption not found in scripture.

1 John 3:19-20 ESV
19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
This says God knows everything. But everything about everything or everything about our hearts? Contextually it says God knows everything about our hearts, nothing is hidden.


Isaiah 46:9-11 ESV
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.

This passage actually supports my view of Omniscience, God knows what He declares and predestines.

Psalm 139:4 ESV
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

This supports the idea that God can know our hearts, our core attributes and attitudes, He knows what we will say before we say them. But this does not say God knows what we will say before we have been created.

Bottom line : none of the verses support the Calvinist view of Omniscience.

So you are not orthodox. You have no history for your beliefs concerning omniscience outside of heretics.

Are you comfortable that only HERETICS in history have believed what you believe?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Omniscience: The property of knowing everything. The traditional philosophical problem is to reconcile the orthodox idea that God knows everything with the absence of predetermination, or in other words with the idea that whereas the past is fixed the future remains somehow ‘open’. To many thinkers it has seemed that if God knows, already, what will happen tomorrow, then human free will and responsibility must be a mere sham.

Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy:



Omniscience : The attribute that denotes God knowing all things. Omniscience means that all events are present to the divine mind; that is, God has direct cognition of everything in creation.

Getz, Stanley J., David Guretzki and Cherith Fee Nordling, Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms, Inter-Varsity Press, Downers Grove, Illinois, p. 86

 

[Luke2427]

I don't know. I've always appealed to mystery (and been ridiculed for it) when it comes to infinite divine attributes of God as they relate to time and space interactions with mankind. I don't believe such things are subject to finite reasoning and we might as well be attempting to make leap to Neptune as to understand such things.

This was the same kind of thinking that gave us the beliefs of Schliermacher and company which introduced higher criticism and liberalism into the churches.

They argued that God is infinite and cannot be understood by reason so we should not try. That single presupposition led to the spiritual DEATH of the continent of Europe.

Appeal to mystery is fine and good. But what IS revealed is NOT a mystery. When you appeal to mystery when the Bible is unambiguous you open the door for liberalism.

The Bible is not unclear about the fact that God has always known all there is to know about everything. This is why the orthodox Christian church INCLUDING ARMINIANS have always fully accepted that God is TRULY omniscient.

If you do not then you are not orthodox. Are you comfortable with that?

If however, he always knew and never made a choice then why does scripture say he made a choice (elected) before the foundation of the world?

This is so simple. It is anthropomorphic language. We cannot understand how God does everything that he does. On those things that we cannot grasp God uses anthropomorphic language.

Does God breathe? Of course not! But the best way what he did to Adam can be described so that we can get a grasp on it is to say that God BREATHED into his nostrils. God does not have a mouth or lungs nor does he inhale or exhale because he has no body.

God does not make choices but there is no better way for us to understand what he is doing so he employs the use of anthropomorphic terminology.

You ought to know this as smart as I think you are.

I expect better from you.

 

[Luke2427]

Omniscience: The property of knowing everything. The traditional philosophical problem is to reconcile the orthodox idea that God knows everything with the absence of predetermination, or in other words with the idea that whereas the past is fixed the future remains somehow ‘open’. To many thinkers it has seemed that if God knows, already, what will happen tomorrow, then human free will and responsibility must be a mere sham.

Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy:



Omniscience : The attribute that denotes God knowing all things. Omniscience means that all events are present to the divine mind; that is, God has direct cognition of everything in creation.

Getz, Stanley J., David Guretzki and Cherith Fee Nordling, Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms, Inter-Varsity Press, Downers Grove, Illinois, p. 86

And you do not believe it, right?

See, Crabtown, the problem with you and good folks like you is that you think that your position is historical. You think Calvinism is fringe.

The fact is that people like you have abandoned 2,000 years of Church history and Orthodox Theology which ALL CHRISTIANS held to and you have adopted a new, unorthodox, nameless theology which makes YOU the fringe.

This ought to be a problem for you, but it is not because you do not see the value of the History of the Christian Church and what hundreds of millions of orthodox Christians have worked out and held to for hundreds and hundreds of years.

 

[Crabtownboy]

And you do not believe it, right?

Did I say I did not believe it? I may not believe it in the same way as you. Also I have said it depends on how you view time ... and to my knowledge the Bible never defines time.

See, Crabtown, the problem with you and good folks like you is that you think that your position is historical. You think Calvinism is fringe.

The fact is that people like you have abandoned 2,000 years of Church history and Orthodox Theology which ALL CHRISTIANS held to and you have adopted a new, unorthodox, nameless theology which makes YOU the fringe.

I respectfully disagree. Occasionally an orthodox priest visits the library here. If I have the opportunity I will ask him how he and the Orthodox Church views Calvinism.

It seems to me if the Orthodox church held his beliefs he would not have been opposed by Rome. I don't know how the Eastern Orthodox view him. Good research topic. I will do some research and post a thread on this the topic of Calvin and Orthodox Church beliefs.

When you say orthodox my guess is that you do not mean the Orthodox church but "orthodox" folks who agree with you. :laugh: [Please, this was gentle humor and no attempt to insult.]

This ought to be a problem for you, but it is not because you do not see the value of the History of the Christian Church and what hundreds of millions of orthodox Christians have worked out and held to for hundreds and hundreds of years.

It is no problem for me as you and others have convinced me that Calvin, at least as you and others have described it is not Biblical. So, you have moved me from a neutral position to one that is no longer neutral.

Show me in Christ's teachings and example from his dealings with others where he viewed some as elect and others as damned by God. Certainly he did not show such an attitude with the woman at the well, the woman taken in adultery, the rich young ruler, not in any of his parables.

Can you imagine him in his sermon on the mount saying, "Well, folk some of you are of the elect, not because of anything you have done or believed and some of you are not of the elect and it has nothing to do with what you have done or believed. It was God who decided before the creation that you are not to live with him in paradise regardless of your beliefs or actions."

 

[Luke2427]

Did I say I did not believe it? I may not believe it in the same way as you. Also I have said it depends on how you view time ... and to my knowledge the Bible never defines time.

It's very simple Crabtown.

You either believe...

God has always known all there is to ever know about everything...

Or you do not.

I respectfully disagree. Occasionally an orthodox priest visits the library here. If I have the opportunity I will ask him how he and the Orthodox Church views Calvinism.

It seems to me if the Orthodox church held his beliefs he would not have been opposed by Rome. I don't know how the Eastern Orthodox view him. Good research topic. I will do some research and post a thread on this the topic of Calvin and Orthodox Church beliefs.

When you say orthodox my guess is that you do not mean the Orthodox church but "orthodox" folks who agree with you. :laugh: [Please, this was gentle humor and no attempt to insult.]

The Eastern or Greek Orthodox Church has NOTHING to do with historical Christian orthodoxy. They happen to be orthodox in most of their beliefs but "Orthodox" is just a title for them.

Christian Orthodoxy has absolutely NOTHING to do with how close one is to the Greek or Eastern Orthodox Church.

The fact that you do not know this is proof enough that you are not educated on these matters enough to debate them.

If you do not know these things you ought to keep your opinions to yourself.

Dangerous people are people who are ignorant and do not care.

Today we celebrate or mourn the 105th anniversary of the Azusa Street Revival which gave us Pentecostalism.

It began under the leadership of an uneducated preacher named William Seymour. From thence came all KINDS of heresy like Oneness Pentecostalism.

God said, "My people perish for lack of knowledge..."

If you don't know these things, for heaven's sake keep quiet until you become better educated!

Show me in Christ's teachings and example from his dealings with others where he viewed some as elect and others as damned by God.

That would CERTAINLY not be hard to do if it were worth the time.

 

[Crabtownboy]

It's very simple Crabtown.

You either believe...

God has always known all there is to ever know about everything...

Or you do not.

Do you mean as long as my belief is the same are yours?

The Eastern or Greek Orthodox Church has NOTHING to do with historical Christian orthodoxy. They happen to be orthodox in most of their beliefs but "Orthodox" is just a title for them.

Christian Orthodoxy has absolutely NOTHING to do with how close one is to the Greek or Eastern Orthodox Church.

I am sure they would find it interesting to learn this fact. Me thinks they might disagree with you just a tab on this.

The fact that you do not know this is proof enough that you are not educated on these matters enough to debate them.

If you do not know these things you ought to keep your opinions to yourself.

Dangerous people are people who are ignorant and do not care.

This is one of the aspects of Calvinist's I find most interesting ... insult or try to insult those who do not agree with me.

Actually I find this an admission that you realize your argument is weak.

Today we celebrate or mourn the 105th anniversary of the Azusa Street Revival which gave us Pentecostalism.

It began under the leadership of an uneducated preacher named William Seymour. From thence came all KINDS of heresy like Oneness Pentecostalism.

God said, "My people perish for lack of knowledge..."

Have I ever said that I am Pentecostal or a follower of "oneness?"

If you don't know these things, for heaven's sake keep quiet until you become better educated!

By this I assume you mean until I agree with you. Would you like to compare degrees? :laugh:

That would CERTAINLY not be hard to do if it were worth the time.

I also find it interesting that Calvinist seemingly never quote Christ or show examples of his life to support their un-biblical beliefs. Now if this is not hard to do, as you state above, please do so and educate us poor uneducated folk. It would be most appreciated.

Again I take your attempted insult as a sign of the weakness of your argument ... and your non-answer as another sign that your argument is not Christ centered.

 

[Luke2427]

Do you mean as long as my belief is the same are yours?

What I meant could not have been clearer.

I am sure they would find it interesting to learn this fact. Me thinks they might disagree with you just a tab on this.

You really don't know what Historical Christian Orthodoxy is, do you?

Yet you lack the humility to stop posting because what you post might be promoting error since you do not have the education to know if you are right or not.

This is a huge problem in this culture.

This is one of the aspects of Calvinist's I find most interesting ... insult or try to insult those who do not agree with me.

I am not insulting you. I am pleading with you to get some theological training before you post things that the church has never believed.

Actually I find this an admission that you realize your argument is weak.

Sad.

Have I ever said that I am Pentecostal or a follower of "oneness?"

See, I did not say you were Pentecostal. That you cannot see that is further proof that you ought to stop posting things that are over your head.

The rules here let anybody post whatever they want and I support those rules. I am not talking about those rules. I am talking about being intellectually honest and admitting that you do not even know what Historical Christian Orthodoxy is and therefore you have no business promoting poorly based, possibly dangerous beliefs for thousands to read.

By this I assume you mean until I agree with you. Would you like to compare degrees? :laugh:

I'll tell you what I AM interested in knowing. Do you have ANY theological training whatsoever? If so, from where?

I am working on my degree now. I have attended two colleges: Southeastern Free Will Baptist College and I am now attending Liberty University.

I also find it interesting that Calvinist seemingly never quote Christ or show examples of his life to support their un-biblical beliefs.

That's bull. I quote Him all the time.

Now if this is not hard to do, as you state above, please do so and educate us poor uneducated folk. It would be most appreciated.

If only you had the humility for this remark to be sincere.

Again I take your attempted insult as a sign of the weakness of your argument ...

Once again, it is not an insult. Take it however you will. That's what you are determined to do anyway. But what it REALLY is is a plea for you to consider that you are on the fringe because you do not know what you are talking about and you are dangerous because you do not CARE that you do not know what you are talking about.

 

[Crabtownboy]

What I meant could not have been clearer.



You really don't know what Historical Christian Orthodoxy is, do you?

So educate me. In you opinion what is Historical Christian Orthodoxy?

Yet you lack the humility to stop posting because what you post might be promoting error since you do not have the education to know if you are right or not.

This is a huge problem in this culture.

Again, so educated us poor folk. Yes, I am being sincere.

I am not insulting you. I am pleading with you to get some theological training before you post things that the church has never believed.

If I directed the same type of reply to you ... you mean you would not see them as at least an attempt to insult?

See, I did not say you were Pentecostal. That you cannot see that is further proof that you ought to stop posting things that are over your head.

They why bring up the "holiday?"

The rules here let anybody post whatever they want and I support those rules. I am not talking about those rules. I am talking about being intellectually honest and admitting that you do not even know what Historical Christian Orthodoxy is and therefore you have no business promoting poorly based, possibly dangerous beliefs for thousands to read.

Again, please educate me.

I'll tell you what I AM interested in knowing. Do you have ANY theological training whatsoever? If so, from where?

Life-long Baptist ... traditional not the modern folk who are no longer Baptist and lots of reading. No seminary training.

I am working on my degree now. I have attended two colleges: Southeastern Free Will Baptist College and I am now attending Liberty University.

I know nothing about Southeastern Free Will Baptist College. I am familiar with Liberty.

That's bull. I quote Him [Jesus] all the time.

So show me in his dealings with people, in his Sermon on the Mout and/or his parables where he shows there is an elect and the non-elect.

If only you had the humility for this remark to be sincere.

I always ask for information sincerely. I spent my life gathering information for others and for myself. That is how I made a living.

Once again, it is not an insult. Take it however you will. That's what you are determined to do anyway. But what it REALLY is is a plea for you to consider that you are on the fringe because you do not know what you are talking about and you are dangerous because you do not CARE that you do not know what you are talking about.

So educate me ... but expect sincere questions.

 

[Luke2427]

So educate me. In you opinion what is Historical Christian Orthodoxy?



Again, so educated us poor folk. Yes, I am being sincere.







Again, please educate me.



I always ask for information sincerely. I spent my life gathering information for others and for myself. That is how I made a living.




So educate me ... but expect sincere questions.

I will be glad to offer what little help I can. But I will require two things. If these two things are not submitted then I will know that you are not sincere.

#1. Do not post publicly on these matters until we are finished. If you are admitting that you do not know these things then you should be willing to not post on them for potentially thousands to read.

#2. We do it in the pm and we do it for two weeks.

 

[webdog]

I wasn't saying that it's not a mystery, I'm saying that God being omniscient isn't a mystery. Phil 2:8-9 teach that God put aside some things by humbling himself. One thing we know is that He gave up the ability to be eternal(he died). We can also conclude that some knowledge he gave up. Exactly how all this works we don't know. That's the mystery. But saying that God doesn't now everything isn't a mystery, it's denying Scripture.

How does God become less God, or give up His attributes? Also, dying doesn't mean He didn't exist, hence He did not become un-eternal. Finite beings cannot fully comprehend what is fully entailed within omniscience. Every vote on this poll is mere speculation as omniscience (like omnipresence and omnipotence) to the human mind is a mytery.

 

[jbh28]

How does God become less God, or give up His attributes? Also, dying doesn't mean He didn't exist, hence He did not become un-eternal. Finite beings cannot fully comprehend what is fully entailed within omniscience. Every vote on this poll is mere speculation as omniscience (like omnipresence and omnipotence) to the human mind is a mytery.

It's not a mystery. The Bible is very clear that God knows everything. Jesus died, God cannot die. Jesus walked around on this earth(singular location) God is omnipresent. Jesus was human, God is spirit. He wasn't any less God. I never said he was. He didn't "give up" his attributes but didn't hold on to them by humbling himself. You say that Jesus as the God man is confusing and a mystery. True, so then don't use that mystery to be an excuse to ignore clear biblical teaching.

It's not speculation nor a mystery. God is omniscient.
1 John 3:19-20
Job 37:16
Psalms 147:5
Proverbs 15:3
Acts 15:18

The only verse you have to deny the biblical truth of the omniscience of God is Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Unless the Son and the Father are not both God, then with the Father knowing, God knows. Still have God knowing everything. As I agreed, it is a mystery between the Father and Son, but it's not a mystery of God knowing everything.


I'm really shocked that there are baptists here denying truths like the omniscience of God.

 

[jbh28]

How come some of you that argue that God doesn't know everything haven't voted in the poll? Ashamed of your beliefs? I respect Freeatlast for voting the way he did. I of course disagree, but at least he had the courage to stand up and say what he believes.

 

[webdog]

It's not a mystery. The Bible is very clear that God knows everything. Jesus died, God cannot die. Jesus walked around on this earth(singular location) God is omnipresent. Jesus was human, God is spirit. He wasn't any less God. I never said he was. He didn't "give up" his attributes but didn't hold on to them by humbling himself. You say that Jesus as the God man is confusing and a mystery. True, so then don't use that mystery to be an excuse to ignore clear biblical teaching.

...and now we are fight back to you separating Christ's humanity from His deity. How many times must you be told you cannot do this?! The hypostatic union IS A MYSTERY. Christ's humanity and deity cannot be separated! This error started in the early church and is true today, I guess. Sad.

It's not speculation nor a mystery. God is omniscient.
1 John 3:19-20
Job 37:16
Psalms 147:5
Proverbs 15:3
Acts 15:18

I've repeatedly maintained omniscience is a trait only God can possess.

The only verse you have to deny the biblical truth of the omniscience of God is Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Who ever said that was the only one? There are numerous verses with God dealing with man within time in a manner we do not understand including the Hezekiah account and what God said in Jeremiah 7:31 "They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind."

Unless the Son and the Father are not both God, then with the Father knowing, God knows. Still have God knowing everything. As I agreed, it is a mystery between the Father and Son, but it's not a mystery of God knowing everything.

Didn't Christ say while on Earth that He was in the Father and the Father in Him? Separate Christ's humanity and divinity with that one...

I'm really shocked that there are baptists here denying truths like the omniscience of God.

Strawman as nobody has denied it. I'm shocked there are baptists that think they can truly understand what omniscience entails with our feeble minds.

 

[webdog]

How come some of you that argue that God doesn't know everything haven't voted in the poll? Ashamed of your beliefs? I respect Freeatlast for voting the way he did. I of course disagree, but at least he had the courage to stand up and say what he believes.

Did you not see where I stated there should be a third view? The poll is a false dichotomy steered to gain a particular response. Anyone can see this.

 

[MB]

I'm not blaming God. My example is fine and I'm not changing the meaning of the word. You are limiting the meaning to one definition. Words have multiple meanings.
If there is something that happens, and I could stop it and don't, then in that sense, I have allowed the event to happen by not stopping it. Nobody is blaming God(or at least nobody should be). I'm responsible for my sin, not God.

Yes, God allowed by to sin. Not gave me permission to sin, but permitted it to happen by not stopping it.

An allowance is permission.
MB

 

[jbh28]

...and now we are fight back to you separating Christ's humanity from His deity. How many times must you be told you cannot do this?! The hypostatic union IS A MYSTERY. Christ's humanity and deity cannot be separated! This error started in the early church and is true today, I guess. Sad.

I just quoted Scripture. Deal with it. Did Jesus die? YES. Can God die? NO. Is Jesus Human? YES. Is God Human? NO. Jesus was fully God and fully man. 100% both. Phil 2:8-9. Read the passage. Don't tell me about early church errors, just read the passage.

I've repeatedly maintained omniscience is a trait only God can possess.

Then what are you arguing with me for then? and please vote that way in the poll if you really mean that.

Who ever said that was the only one? There are numerous verses with God dealing with man within time in a manner we do not understand including the Hezekiah account and what God said in Jeremiah 7:31 "They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind."

good passage about God not being the author of sin btw...

Didn't Christ say while on Earth that He was in the Father and the Father in Him? Separate Christ's humanity and divinity with that one...

So the Father died on the cross? Did Jesus Human die for God? Was God dead for 3 days? Jesus' human body was dead for three days.

Strawman as nobody has denied it.

Van and winman are two that have. Freeatlast has and voted that way in the poll. Not a straw man. Not sure why you even said it was.

I'm shocked there are baptists that think they can truly understand what omniscience entails with our feeble minds.

Never said I understand it, just understand it's true.

 

[jbh28]

Did you not see where I stated there should be a third view? The poll is a false dichotomy steered to gain a particular response. Anyone can see this.

What's the third view? Either he does or he doesn't.