Omniscience

Not always. go read a dictionary. Words have more than one meaning. Allowance CAN mean that you have permission. I was allowed to sing that song in church on Sunday.

Or, we can use it by not stopping something that we could have stopped. God has allowed people to disobey him. God could have stopped us from sinning if He wanted to, but let/permit/allow us to sin.

If you disagree, then why?

God didn't know about the sin?
God couldn't stop the sin?
other...

 

...according to you. I will accept areas of gray where Scripture does.

 

This is becoming quite childish. I quoted Scripture as well. You should "deal with" the blatant error of separating His natures.

I'm arguing the idea of omniscience as DEFINED BY FINITE MAN.

Nice way to divert, now deal with the text.

THIS is the mystery. I just quoted Scripture, "deal with it".

Have they...or have they denied your understanding of sovereignty? I will admit that they are using as much human logic in their defense as you have, though.

Odd since you are defending your understanding of it.

 

I went over my dictionary with a fine tooth comb and didn't find one instance that said it wasn't permissive. It always the definition with Calvinist. If it is allowed it is permissive simply because it was allowed. You do speak English don't you? What ever is allowed is permitted.
MB

 

So he both does and doesn't? Or are you saying your not sure.

 

Please answer my question at the bottom of my previous post.

 

God knew about sin He knew lucifer would fall and he knew man would fall.
God could have stopped Lucifer from sinning and he could have stopped man from sinning.
So why didn't He because of the divine institution of Volition.

 

not profitable...

 

so God allowed sin to happen by allowing man to act according to man's will. I would agree. I would also agree that God knows about all things including sin.

 

I'm saying I will accept the tension.

 

For something to truely be beyond measure it must be infinite. For something to be beyond the measure of a human it doesn't have to be very intelligent at all. We are small finite things. The Holy Spirit inspired the words to be written beyond measure and that is what he meant. Beyond any meaure possible is God's knowledge that = infinite/omnicient.

It plainly says he knows everything. If the Holy Spirit had wanted to limit it to our hearts he would have added "about our hearts" but he said everything which is all inclusive and certainly includes our hearts but is not limited to our hearts. It is everything = infinite/omnicient.

To know the end from the beginning you must know everything that happens in between, if not one little event can throw your whole plan into a tizzy. Declaring the end from the beginning doesn't just communicate he knows though. It communicates he assigned/determined. The one who has made and determined everything certainly knows everything and has declared the end from the beginning = infinite/omnicient.

It says before a word is on your tongue he knows what you will say. It doesn't specify a time frame. However, it does clearly communicate that you will never teach him anything as he knows everything you will say before you say it. Also we know from the rest of scripture that God is infinite and unchanging and that his knowledge of all things is eternally before him, unchanging. So, indeed it is knowledge in eternity. If God were a God of learning and emotion his holiness would have demanded that he destroy people long ago.

Malachi 3:6 ESV
6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

To the contrary it has been shown that all of the passages given support the orthodox calvinist view of God's omnicience.

 

very well. but it seems your tension is with Jesus(which is a mystery....God doesn't change, but Jesus became a human) but on the flip side, there are truths that I'm not going to reject. Let me illustrate.

I'm assuming you believe in the trinity right? do you understand it? I sure don't, but I believe it.

Truth 1: Jesus is God, he Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God
Truth 2: Jesus is not the Father, The Spirit isn't Jesus, The Father isn't the Holy Spirit.

ok, understanding so far.

Truth 3. There is one God

huh?

There's tension, but I'm not going to deny any of the three truths.

Truth 1: The son doesn't know the timing of the return
Truth 2: The Father does know
Truth 3: Jesus and the Father are both God and know everything

Tension? Sure. Truth, going to teach it. Not going to deny number 3 because I don't understand how it works with number one.

Anther example
Truth: God is good
Truth: God is great(omnipotent)
Truth: Evil exits.

why is there evil if God is able to stop evil and God is good. tension? yes, truth, going to teach it. All 3 are true, though I don't understand how they all work out.

 

Yes I disagree with your answers since you separate them. You claim not to have the hypostatic union all figured out, but your answers suggest otherwise. The Trinity is 3 in One...yet they cannot be separated. Same tension applies. Just accept it and not try to explain it away.

Why do I need to?

I asked the question, why not just answer it instead of asking a counter question. I just quoted Scripture "deal with it". Any contradiction is perceived and not a true contradiction, hence the reason I appeal to mystery on this.

I haven't ignored anything. Scripture states Christ is in the Father and He in Him. I just quoted Scripture, "deal with it"

It has everything to do with sovereignty! He can choose to interact and react with His creation in any manner He chooses. Do you deny this? While falsely separating Christ's natures you even admitted to such a notion!

...and? Deal with the others.

I'm defending Scripture as well. Does it also not say He will remember our sin no more? Does it say certain thoughts never crossed His mind?

 

God is one in essence and three in personalities. As God they have all the attributes.
Christ in His humanity knew as we know, therefore as human He didn't know the time of the return. As God it wasn't time to reveal it to mankind.
The time is not for man to know.

 

Did you see my vote, Luke?

I've NEVER denied God's omniscience. I've only denied the God limiting conclusions you draw from your own finite reasoning based upon divine omniscience. (i.e. if God foreknows it before creating it he must predetermine it.)

So, whether God is or isn't omniscient isn't a mystery, He clearly IS, but how that impacts the manner in which he relates to man within time and space along with how He "actively or permissively decrees" good versus evil is not completely clear to our finite minds.

Exactly, so let's stop speculating by presuming that God does the (evil) deed, but it's not evil because he did it with the right motive, and other such non-biblical concepts.

I guess if he would have had Augustine or Calvin write the bible instead, He could have had them put it in terms that would have given us little better "grasp" of these matters, right?

The point is, if it is okay for the authors of scripture to USE this language so we can understand it, then why would it be wrong for us to believe that understanding? Why over explain it and add to the text by say things like, "Well, the idea of God's choosing something is anthropomorphic language, but in reality God's will to create the world and save you has eternally existed in his mind."

Luke, Luke, Luke. Why do you get personal? Just talk about the topic bro. These kinds of jabs just reflect badly on you. Let's take the high road and stick to discussing doctrine. Okay?

 

Do you think that he forgets, or doesn't count our sins against us...aka...not remembering.

 

I would agree, but I've been told that I'm separating Jesus' humanity from his deity when I say that.

 

I cannot answer the OP Poll question because my answer would be both.

Now, I realize that sounds like an impossibility, but there are many scriptures that seem to say God knows everything from the beginning (which I believe), and there are many verses that seem to say God knows some things in time (which I also believe).

I have a theory on this, and that is that God does limit himself at times in dealing with men. God has to limit himself in dealing with men because if he appeared in his glory men would fall dead on the spot.

Jesus must have limited himself to appear in the presence of men. And perhaps this is why he did not know the exact day and hour of his return, but only his Father.

Well, what about the many times God appeared to men in the OT, such as when he spoke to Adam and Eve, Cain, Abraham and many others? Perhaps at these times he had to limit himself in order to appear in presence with men, else the men would be killed by his presence.

If this were true, it would explain why God asked Adam and Eve where they were in the garden, why he asked Cain where Abel was, why he said he would personally go into Sodom to see if they were doing according to the cry he had heard and then he would know, or telling Abraham that NOW he knows Abraham fears God.

So, perhaps when God comes down from heaven and appears to men in person he has to limit himself in some fashion.

We know Jesus is God, but the scriptures say no man hath seen God at any time.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

This seems like a contradiction, because the scriptures say God appeared to men many times.

Gen 33:And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.


Gen 35:7 And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother.
8 But Deborah Rebekah's nurse died, and she was buried beneath Bethel under an oak: and the name of it was called Allonbachuth.
9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

So, John 1:18 says no man has seen God at any time, and yet we have several instances where the scriptures say God appeared to men. How can these both be true?

I think if we understand that God MUST limit himself to appear before men (because men would die), then we can understand this seeming contradiction. God did appear to Jacob and Abraham, but not fully, not in his glory. So, in this sense no man has truly seen God at any time.

And if God limits himself in glory, perhaps he also limits himself in other attributes including omniscience. This would explain why Jesus did not know the day and hour of his return, and why God at times seemed only to know things in time such as Gen 18:21 and Gen 22:12.

Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God cannot appear in glory before man or he will die.

Exo 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

So, we see before the scriptures said Moses spoke to God face to face. But this was not God in his glory or full attributes. Later when Moses asked to see God's glory, God told Moses he could not see his face or he would die.

This is what I believe. I believe that God limited himself at times dealing with men in person. In these instances he surely did not appear in his glory, but he may have also been limited in other attributes such as omniscience.

I do not know for absolute certain this is correct, but it could be.