Omniscience

[jbh28]

An allowance is permission.
MB

Not always. go read a dictionary. Words have more than one meaning. Allowance CAN mean that you have permission. I was allowed to sing that song in church on Sunday.

Or, we can use it by not stopping something that we could have stopped. God has allowed people to disobey him. God could have stopped us from sinning if He wanted to, but let/permit/allow us to sin.

If you disagree, then why?

God didn't know about the sin?
God couldn't stop the sin?
other...

 

[webdog]

What's the third view? Either he does or he doesn't.

...according to you. I will accept areas of gray where Scripture does.

 

[webdog]

I just quoted Scripture. Deal with it. Did Jesus die? YES. Can God die? NO. Is Jesus Human? YES. Is God Human? NO. Jesus was fully God and fully man. 100% both. Phil 2:8-9. Read the passage. Don't tell me about early church errors, just read the passage.

This is becoming quite childish. I quoted Scripture as well. You should "deal with" the blatant error of separating His natures.

Then what are you arguing with me for then? and please vote that way in the poll if you really mean that.

I'm arguing the idea of omniscience as DEFINED BY FINITE MAN.

good passage about God not being the author of sin btw...

Nice way to divert, now deal with the text.

So the Father died on the cross? Did Jesus Human die for God? Was God dead for 3 days? Jesus' human body was dead for three days.

THIS is the mystery. I just quoted Scripture, "deal with it".

Van and winman are two that have. Freeatlast has and voted that way in the poll. Not a straw man. Not sure why you even said it was.

Have they...or have they denied your understanding of sovereignty? I will admit that they are using as much human logic in their defense as you have, though.

Never said I understand it, just understand it's true.

Odd since you are defending your understanding of it.

 

[MB]

Not always. go read a dictionary. Words have more than one meaning. Allowance CAN mean that you have permission. I was allowed to sing that song in church on Sunday.

Or, we can use it by not stopping something that we could have stopped. God has allowed people to disobey him. God could have stopped us from sinning if He wanted to, but let/permit/allow us to sin.

If you disagree, then why?

God didn't know about the sin?
God couldn't stop the sin?
other...

I went over my dictionary with a fine tooth comb and didn't find one instance that said it wasn't permissive. It always the definition with Calvinist. If it is allowed it is permissive simply because it was allowed. You do speak English don't you? What ever is allowed is permitted.
MB

 

[jbh28]

...according to you. I will accept areas of gray where Scripture does.

So he both does and doesn't? Or are you saying your not sure.

 

[jbh28]

I went over my dictionary with a fine tooth comb and didn't find one instance that said it wasn't permissive. [removed elementary comment] If it is allowed it is permissive simply because it was allowed. You do speak English don't you? What ever is allowed is permitted.
MB

Please answer my question at the bottom of my previous post.

 

[revmwc]

Not always. go read a dictionary. Words have more than one meaning. Allowance CAN mean that you have permission. I was allowed to sing that song in church on Sunday.

Or, we can use it by not stopping something that we could have stopped. God has allowed people to disobey him. God could have stopped us from sinning if He wanted to, but let/permit/allow us to sin.

If you disagree, then why?

God didn't know about the sin?
God couldn't stop the sin?
other...

God knew about sin He knew lucifer would fall and he knew man would fall.
God could have stopped Lucifer from sinning and he could have stopped man from sinning.
So why didn't He because of the divine institution of Volition.

 

[jbh28]

not profitable...

 

[jbh28]

God knew about sin He knew lucifer would fall and he knew man would fall.
God could have stopped Lucifer from sinning and he could have stopped man from sinning.
So why didn't He because of the divine institution of Volition.

so God allowed sin to happen by allowing man to act according to man's will. I would agree. I would also agree that God knows about all things including sin.

 

[webdog]

So he both does and doesn't? Or are you saying your not sure.

I'm saying I will accept the tension.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Thank you for posting actual support, for Omniscience!

Psalm 147:5 ESV
5 Great is our Lord, and abundant in power;
his understanding is beyond measure.


This says God's understanding (cognitive knowledge) is beyond measure. Since nothing is beyond the measure of God, what this says is His knowledge is beyond what we can measure, way bigger than we can comprehend. It provides no specifics. So no support for God knows everything we can imagine. To make that claim requires an assumption not found in scripture.

For something to truely be beyond measure it must be infinite. For something to be beyond the measure of a human it doesn't have to be very intelligent at all. We are small finite things. The Holy Spirit inspired the words to be written beyond measure and that is what he meant. Beyond any meaure possible is God's knowledge that = infinite/omnicient.

1 John 3:19-20 ESV
19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
This says God knows everything. But everything about everything or everything about our hearts? Contextually it says God knows everything about our hearts, nothing is hidden.

It plainly says he knows everything. If the Holy Spirit had wanted to limit it to our hearts he would have added "about our hearts" but he said everything which is all inclusive and certainly includes our hearts but is not limited to our hearts. It is everything = infinite/omnicient.

Isaiah 46:9-11 ESV
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.

This passage actually supports my view of Omniscience, God knows what He declares and predestines.

To know the end from the beginning you must know everything that happens in between, if not one little event can throw your whole plan into a tizzy. Declaring the end from the beginning doesn't just communicate he knows though. It communicates he assigned/determined. The one who has made and determined everything certainly knows everything and has declared the end from the beginning = infinite/omnicient.

Psalm 139:4 ESV
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

This supports the idea that God can know our hearts, our core attributes and attitudes, He knows what we will say before we say them. But this does not say God knows what we will say before we have been created.

It says before a word is on your tongue he knows what you will say. It doesn't specify a time frame. However, it does clearly communicate that you will never teach him anything as he knows everything you will say before you say it. Also we know from the rest of scripture that God is infinite and unchanging and that his knowledge of all things is eternally before him, unchanging. So, indeed it is knowledge in eternity. If God were a God of learning and emotion his holiness would have demanded that he destroy people long ago.

Malachi 3:6 ESV
6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

Bottom line : none of the verses support the Calvinist view of Omniscience.

To the contrary it has been shown that all of the passages given support the orthodox calvinist view of God's omnicience.

 

[jbh28]

I'm saying I will accept the tension.

very well. but it seems your tension is with Jesus(which is a mystery....God doesn't change, but Jesus became a human) but on the flip side, there are truths that I'm not going to reject. Let me illustrate.

I'm assuming you believe in the trinity right? do you understand it? I sure don't, but I believe it.

Truth 1: Jesus is God, he Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God
Truth 2: Jesus is not the Father, The Spirit isn't Jesus, The Father isn't the Holy Spirit.

ok, understanding so far.

Truth 3. There is one God

huh?

There's tension, but I'm not going to deny any of the three truths.

Truth 1: The son doesn't know the timing of the return
Truth 2: The Father does know
Truth 3: Jesus and the Father are both God and know everything

Tension? Sure. Truth, going to teach it. Not going to deny number 3 because I don't understand how it works with number one.

Anther example
Truth: God is good
Truth: God is great(omnipotent)
Truth: Evil exits.

why is there evil if God is able to stop evil and God is good. tension? yes, truth, going to teach it. All 3 are true, though I don't understand how they all work out.

 

[webdog]

I quoted Scripture. He has two nature, not one. They have different attributes. Do you disagree with my answers that I gave?

Yes I disagree with your answers since you separate them. You claim not to have the hypostatic union all figured out, but your answers suggest otherwise. The Trinity is 3 in One...yet they cannot be separated. Same tension applies. Just accept it and not try to explain it away.

give a better definition other than all knowledge.

Why do I need to?

Are you saying that the passage is teaching that God didn't know about it ahead of time? If so, then the Bible has a contradiction because it teaches that God has all knowledge. (btw, be man enough to admit that God doesn't know everything if you are going to argue for that)

I asked the question, why not just answer it instead of asking a counter question. I just quoted Scripture "deal with it". Any contradiction is perceived and not a true contradiction, hence the reason I appeal to mystery on this.

None of that is a mystery. All is taught in Scripture. You are using "mystery" as an excuse to ignore Scripture.

I haven't ignored anything. Scripture states Christ is in the Father and He in Him. I just quoted Scripture, "deal with it"

this has nothing to do with sovereignty. Knowing the future doesn't equal being sovereign. And yes, they have along with you and freeatlast. (if not you, then stop arguing for God not knowing everything

It has everything to do with sovereignty! He can choose to interact and react with His creation in any manner He chooses. Do you deny this? While falsely separating Christ's natures you even admitted to such a notion!

I just quoted Scripture that says God knows everything.

...and? Deal with the others.

I defending Scripture. It teaches God knows everything. God is eternal. That alone teaches that God knows everything.

I'm defending Scripture as well. Does it also not say He will remember our sin no more? Does it say certain thoughts never crossed His mind?

 

[revmwc]

very well. but it seems your tension is with Jesus(which is a mystery....God doesn't change, but Jesus became a human) but on the flip side, there are truths that I'm not going to reject. Let me illustrate.

I'm assuming you believe in the trinity right? do you understand it? I sure don't, but I believe it.

Truth 1: Jesus is God, he Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God
Truth 2: Jesus is not the Father, The Spirit isn't Jesus, The Father isn't the Holy Spirit.

ok, understanding so far.

Truth 3. There is one God

huh?

There's tension, but I'm not going to deny any of the three truths.

Truth 1: The son doesn't know the timing of the return
Truth 2: The Father does know
Truth 3: Jesus and the Father are both God and know everything

Tension? Sure. Truth, going to teach it. Not going to deny number 3 because I don't understand how it works with number one.

Anther example
Truth: God is good
Truth: God is great(omnipotent)
Truth: Evil exits.

why is there evil if God is able to stop evil and God is good. tension? yes, truth, going to teach it. All 3 are true, though I don't understand how they all work out.

God is one in essence and three in personalities. As God they have all the attributes.
Christ in His humanity knew as we know, therefore as human He didn't know the time of the return. As God it wasn't time to reveal it to mankind.
The time is not for man to know.

 

[Skandelon]

This was the same kind of thinking that gave us the beliefs of Schliermacher and company which introduced higher criticism and liberalism into the churches.

They argued that God is infinite and cannot be understood by reason so we should not try. That single presupposition led to the spiritual DEATH of the continent of Europe.

Appeal to mystery is fine and good. But what IS revealed is NOT a mystery. When you appeal to mystery when the Bible is unambiguous you open the door for liberalism.

The Bible is not unclear about the fact that God has always known all there is to know about everything. This is why the orthodox Christian church INCLUDING ARMINIANS have always fully accepted that God is TRULY omniscient.

If you do not then you are not orthodox. Are you comfortable with that?

Did you see my vote, Luke?

I've NEVER denied God's omniscience. I've only denied the God limiting conclusions you draw from your own finite reasoning based upon divine omniscience. (i.e. if God foreknows it before creating it he must predetermine it.)

So, whether God is or isn't omniscient isn't a mystery, He clearly IS, but how that impacts the manner in which he relates to man within time and space along with how He "actively or permissively decrees" good versus evil is not completely clear to our finite minds.

This is so simple. It is anthropomorphic language. We cannot understand how God does everything that he does.

Exactly, so let's stop speculating by presuming that God does the (evil) deed, but it's not evil because he did it with the right motive, and other such non-biblical concepts.

On those things that we cannot grasp God uses anthropomorphic language.

I guess if he would have had Augustine or Calvin write the bible instead, He could have had them put it in terms that would have given us little better "grasp" of these matters, right?

The point is, if it is okay for the authors of scripture to USE this language so we can understand it, then why would it be wrong for us to believe that understanding? Why over explain it and add to the text by say things like, "Well, the idea of God's choosing something is anthropomorphic language, but in reality God's will to create the world and save you has eternally existed in his mind."

You ought to know this as smart as I think you are.

I expect better from you.

Luke, Luke, Luke. Why do you get personal? Just talk about the topic bro. These kinds of jabs just reflect badly on you. Let's take the high road and stick to discussing doctrine. Okay?

 

[jbh28]

I'm defending Scripture as well. Does it also not say He will remember our sin no more? Does it say certain thoughts never crossed His mind?

Do you think that he forgets, or doesn't count our sins against us...aka...not remembering.

 

[jbh28]

God is one in essence and three in personalities. As God they have all the attributes.
Christ in His humanity knew as we know, therefore as human He didn't know the time of the return. As God it wasn't time to reveal it to mankind.
The time is not for man to know.

I would agree, but I've been told that I'm separating Jesus' humanity from his deity when I say that.

 

[Luke2427]

Did you see my vote, Luke?

I've NEVER denied God's omniscience. I've only denied the God limiting conclusions you draw from your own finite reasoning based upon divine omniscience. (i.e. if God foreknows it before creating it he must predetermine it.)

Excellent.

So, whether God is or isn't omniscient isn't a mystery, He clearly IS, but how that impacts the manner in which he relates to man within time and space along with how He "actively or permissively decrees" good versus evil is not completely clear to our finite minds.

agreed

Exactly, so let's stop speculating by presuming that God does the (evil) deed, but it's not evil because he did it with the right motive, and other such non-biblical concepts.

We are going to have to get past this. I have never said and I have proven that I have never said that god DOES the evil deed. But God brings it to pass by his power and his will.

If we are going to remain friends we you are going to have to stop with this baseless accusation.

I guess if he would have had Augustine or Calvin write the bible instead, He could have had them put it in terms that would have given us little better "grasp" of these matters, right?

That God eternally knows all there is to know about everything is all we are discussing at this point. The predertimining comes later after we have established this. What Augustine has to say about is moot at this stage of the conversation. We have an accord. God eternally knows all there is ton know about everything.

The point is, if it is okay for the authors of scripture to USE this language so we can understand it, then why would it be wrong for us to believe that understanding?

For the same reason it would be wrong to believe that God has a body.

Why over explain it and add to the text by say things like, "Well, the idea of God's choosing something is anthropomorphic language, but in reality God's will to create the world and save you has eternally existed in his mind."

Because we believe that God has always known all there is to know about everything.

 

[Luke2427]

Did you see my vote, Luke?

I've NEVER denied God's omniscience. I've only denied the God limiting conclusions you draw from your own finite reasoning based upon divine omniscience. (i.e. if God foreknows it before creating it he must predetermine it.)

So, whether God is or isn't omniscient isn't a mystery, He clearly IS, but how that impacts the manner in which he relates to man within time and space along with how He "actively or permissively decrees" good versus evil is not completely clear to our finite minds.

Exactly, so let's stop speculating by presuming that God does the (evil) deed, but it's not evil because he did it with the right motive, and other such non-biblical concepts.

I guess if he would have had Augustine or Calvin write the bible instead, He could have had them put it in terms that would have given us little better "grasp" of these matters, right?

The point is, if it is okay for the authors of scripture to USE this language so we can understand it, then why would it be wrong for us to believe that understanding? Why over explain it and add to the text by say things like, "Well, the idea of God's choosing something is anthropomorphic language, but in reality God's will to create the world and save you has eternally existed in his mind."


Luke, Luke, Luke. Why do you get personal? Just talk about the topic bro. These kinds of jabs just reflect badly on you. Let's take the high road and stick to discussing doctrine. Okay?

I thought we were going to stick with this.

You asked me to engage on the "parables" thread.

I agreed only if we would stick with this one and on the subject of the origin of evil.


What's the deal?

 

[Winman]

I cannot answer the OP Poll question because my answer would be both.

Now, I realize that sounds like an impossibility, but there are many scriptures that seem to say God knows everything from the beginning (which I believe), and there are many verses that seem to say God knows some things in time (which I also believe).

I have a theory on this, and that is that God does limit himself at times in dealing with men. God has to limit himself in dealing with men because if he appeared in his glory men would fall dead on the spot.

Jesus must have limited himself to appear in the presence of men. And perhaps this is why he did not know the exact day and hour of his return, but only his Father.

Well, what about the many times God appeared to men in the OT, such as when he spoke to Adam and Eve, Cain, Abraham and many others? Perhaps at these times he had to limit himself in order to appear in presence with men, else the men would be killed by his presence.

If this were true, it would explain why God asked Adam and Eve where they were in the garden, why he asked Cain where Abel was, why he said he would personally go into Sodom to see if they were doing according to the cry he had heard and then he would know, or telling Abraham that NOW he knows Abraham fears God.

So, perhaps when God comes down from heaven and appears to men in person he has to limit himself in some fashion.

We know Jesus is God, but the scriptures say no man hath seen God at any time.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

This seems like a contradiction, because the scriptures say God appeared to men many times.

Gen 33:And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.


Gen 35:7 And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother.
8 But Deborah Rebekah's nurse died, and she was buried beneath Bethel under an oak: and the name of it was called Allonbachuth.
9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

So, John 1:18 says no man has seen God at any time, and yet we have several instances where the scriptures say God appeared to men. How can these both be true?

I think if we understand that God MUST limit himself to appear before men (because men would die), then we can understand this seeming contradiction. God did appear to Jacob and Abraham, but not fully, not in his glory. So, in this sense no man has truly seen God at any time.

And if God limits himself in glory, perhaps he also limits himself in other attributes including omniscience. This would explain why Jesus did not know the day and hour of his return, and why God at times seemed only to know things in time such as Gen 18:21 and Gen 22:12.

Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God cannot appear in glory before man or he will die.

Exo 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

So, we see before the scriptures said Moses spoke to God face to face. But this was not God in his glory or full attributes. Later when Moses asked to see God's glory, God told Moses he could not see his face or he would die.

This is what I believe. I believe that God limited himself at times dealing with men in person. In these instances he surely did not appear in his glory, but he may have also been limited in other attributes such as omniscience.

I do not know for absolute certain this is correct, but it could be.