On request, Different Gospels -#2.

[OldRegular]

Paul also tells us in Romans 8:

9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

All true believers, Jew, Gentile, or whatever, are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

 

[OldRegular]

Ituttut

You posted the following Scripture in response to my question which follows:

Question posed to Ituttut
Where in Scripture does it talk about two [2] different foundations laid by man on the Foundation of Jesus Christ?

Scripture posted by Ituttut in response
I Corinthians 3:9-11,
9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:20-22, "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."[/i]

OldRegular's correction to Ituttut double post of the same passage but identified incorrectly.

Ephesians 2:20-22
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

So what have you proven Ituttut? Absolutely nothing. Jesus Christ is the foundation or the chief cornerstone depending on the semantics. Is Paul confused or are you? I suspect it is you!

 

[OldRegular]

Please read Acts for clarification. The Gospel of John the Baptist was to begin in Jerusalem and then spread to Samaria, and to the utter most parts of the world. Who was it that was to preach this gospel of John the Baptist? The 12 Apostles that were headquartered in Jerusalem. When the house of Israel had accepted their Messiah, then their disciples were to then go with the gospel of John the Baptist into the whole world. It is the Jew, and only the Jew that was to preach this gospel to the world. This is not the gospel that is given to the Gentile to spread to the world.

Ituttut

I have never read such nonsense coming from one who claims to be a Christian. There is no such thing as the Gospel of John the Baptist. The Baptist was simply the forerunner of Jesus Christ and the fulfillment of prophecy.

To argue there was a Gospel of John the Baptist borders on blasphemy if it is not blasphemy. There is only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ! The Apostle Paul states that anyone who says otherwise is to be accursed. Those are harsh words Ituttut and they apply to you.

All I can say is what I have said before, may God have mercy on you!

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut you did not answer the question. Paul states that: godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation. Yet you have argued that Paul's Gospel for Gentiles never says anything about repentance relative to salvation, while what you call Peter's Gospel for the Jews does. All you do in the above response is dance around a little and throw in a couple of Greek words to impress or confuse. Is Paul confused about his Gospel or are you confused about the Gospel of Jesus Christ which Paul preached as did Peter.

OldRegular for the umpteen time I have never said repentance (change of mind/a turning to) is not necessary. See any previous, and below

Just answer the question ituttut: What does Paul mean when he writes the following?

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

The sorrow is from God. This sorrow, or pain works repentance, which leads to salvation, which is not to be repented of. Repentance does not save us, but leads us to salvation, which today is through the faith of Jesus Christ, and His Works (Not ours).

So In one fell swoop, when we believe we change our mind as we turn to Him. Any NEW believer, or any already saved, repents to salvation. The New repenting, by changing their mind about God (by the Grace of God), and turning to salvation (Jesus Christ through whom we come to Salvation). To the already saved, as we see in II Corinthians 7:10, we do not start all over again, Believing Anew to Repentance, for it is impossible for us to renew again to repentance.

In our initial Repentance we are lead to Salvation. When we are save, and should we sin we can never again be renewed to repentance, for we have already been Sealed by The Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. If we fall away (never out of) we are not lost, for in our "godly sorrow, we Know By the Grace of God, it worketh repentance to salvation, for it never stops.

You demand an answer, and I will also do the same. What do believe this scripture says to YOU?

 

[Winman]

ituttut

I agree with you on repentance. Repentance in salvation is turning from unbelief to belief.

When Peter told the Jews to repent, he was telling them to believe Jesus was the Christ. They had not believed this before, they believed him to be a blasphemer, this was the official charge they used to condemn him.

Mark 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

So Peter preached the Jews to repent, or change their mind and believe that Jesus was indeed the Son of God and trust on him for salvation.

Where I do disagree with you is where you think Paul preached a different gospel than John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles in early Acts. Paul himself confirms that John the Baptist was preaching the same message that he was.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

John the Baptist was not preaching the restoration of the kingdom, John was preaching that the people should believe on Jesus Christ. This is the exact same gospel as Paul preached.

 

[OldRegular]

ituttut

I agree with you on repentance. Repentance in salvation is turning from unbelief to belief.

When Peter told the Jews to repent, he was telling them to believe Jesus was the Christ. They had not believed this before, they believed him to be a blasphemer, this was the official charge they used to condemn him.

Mark 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

So Peter preached the Jews to repent, or change their mind and believe that Jesus was indeed the Son of God and trust on him for salvation.

Where I do disagree with you is where you think Paul preached a different gospel than John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles in early Acts. Paul himself confirms that John the Baptist was preaching the same message that he was.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

John the Baptist was not preaching the restoration of the kingdom, John was preaching that the people should believe on Jesus Christ. This is the exact same gospel as Paul preached.

Faith must precede repentance [godly sorrow]. Regeneration must precede faith. Faith is the gift of God.

 

[ituttut]

Post by OldRegular
Everyone who has every been saved has been saved through the Grace of my Lord Jesus Christ. To claim otherwise is to lie.

Response by ituttut
Well finally you have got it right OldRegular. Everyone now has, or can be saved by the GRACE of God, THROUGH the Faith of Jesus Christ. What you are rejecting is the Word of God. How in the world could Moses or David be JUSTIFIED THROUGH THE FAITH OF JESUS Christ. They did not even know His Name, and there is no way they could come THROUGH HIS BLOOD, as He had not yet Shed It. And please don't tell me they knew His Name for they did not. And don't tell me they KNEW of what God said He had hidden from man, until After Damascus Road. Can we believe God, or do we believe MIGHTY MAN.

OldRugar to ituttut
The above is worse than no answer. I made the simple statement that: Everyone who has every been saved has been saved through the Grace of my Lord Jesus Christ and you respond as above. Are you denying that truth or not? It is not clear from what you say above, particularly regarding Moses and David. Please tell me how they were saved, by Grace or otherwise.

OldRegular you failed to catch the drift. I agreed with you in saying, "Everyone now has, or can be saved by the GRACE of God, THROUGH the Faith of Jesus Christ." This answers your question.

What I am trying to show you is Moses and David went to Hades into Abrahams Bosom. Are you telling me TODAY that is where our souls still go? I am a 'dispensationalist for reasons just as this. Can you see if anything has changed?

A good example of what I'm talking about is if you have read Psalms 68:18, "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them".

Do you know what that means when you get to Isaiah? Do you know what that means before you get to Luke 4:18-20. And while you contemplate those meanings, you will run into Luke 21:24.

If you do know, can you tell me how you came to know the meaning of the above Psalm?

As for what they knew listen to what the Apostle Paul tells us:

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Now what Gospel was preached to Abraham?

I'll show you as it is contained in what you quote, Galatians 3:8.

First, what you presented, could you find this information before Paul told you about it?

Second, you need to reread what Gospel was preached to Abraham. It does not say He told Abraham of justifying the heathen through faith. This is contradictory.



And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed

This verse you quote says "And the scripture saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed" We know this is SCRIPTURE, and a Gospel that Abraham believed (as that is the way the sentence begins). God foreseeing He would justify the heathen through faith, "preached BEFORE THE GOSPEL" (great news gospel of by Grace of through faith) "unto Abraham, saying in thee shall all nations be blessed". God foresaw how He would justify the heathen, and He applied it to How Abram/Abraham would be JUSTIFIED, after the Cross, and Jesus Christ's ascension into heaven.

We cannot contradict Hebrews 11 where we find Abraham was justified by faith, even though he is a Gentile. Abram was a Heathen before he was circumcised, and remained so after becoming circumcised, and called Abraham. Abraham is not a Jew, and was not under the Law. Abraham was declared righteous, just as we are today because He believed God, not as a Jew, nor of the Law.

So all are blessed in Abram/Abraham, for He believed God. That is what we are to do today. But we must note that Abraham was not justified as we that do no work of our own. So this is the reason that Abraham, being a Gentile knew nothing about justification through faith, he could only know by faith in God justification, for He had to make Sacrifice. Had he known of what God foreknew (but hid from man), why did he make animal sacrifice?

The difference in by faith, and through faith, is who does the work, what blood is shed, and who does the shedding.

If you believe God explained to Abraham about through faith, and gave Him that Gospel, then why is it that he did not preach that message to the whole world?

You can continue to waste your time, and mine, by refusing to accept the fact Christ Jesus from heaven told first to Paul this information to where we can understand it. And the first time we see this is after Damascus Road, for God had hidden such things as this from man.

Why do you continue to Bad Mouth, Jesus Christ in Heaven? You want to shut Him up After He Left This Earth. The man is dead, and our risen Lord Jesus Christ is in heaven very much alive, and can still tell us what His Gospel is today. You may wish to only believe what He said on this earth while man, but I believe both the Man, and what He revealed to Paul while He (Christ Jesus) is in heaven.

 

[OldRegular]

Why do you continue to Bad Mouth, Jesus Christ in Heaven? You want to shut Him up After He Left This Earth.

This is my final word to you Ituttut. The above statement is a flat out lie and you know it is a lie. The doctrine you spout on this forum about two gospels is heresy and you will have to answer to the Lord Jesus Christ before the Great White Throne for corrupting His Gospel.

 

[ituttut]

Hi Winman

The OT saints were saved by trusting in Christ. No, they did not know his specific name, or many of the details, but they looked for the promised saviour. And the Bible says this.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Looks as though this could be directed to me Winman, I'll give my answer.

With all due respect I've not said they didn't "look for the promised savior".

And as far as though faith being known before this time, nowhere in Scripture can we find this wording, and meaning. The verse says, "He gives all the prophets witness" it does not say they before had witnessed. This is happening Now, in that present time. The Prophets are witness to this happening.

We can only allow the interpretation of the Holy Spirit to be the final word. To make sure this is the correct rendering of this verse we have testimony of Jesus while He was on this earth. John 17:11, "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." This is the Word of God (Jesus) speaking to His Father. We should not change what Jesus says to fit into our own religion.

As we read further into John we find the meaning of what Peter IS TOLD TO PREACH to the Gentile. The Prophets wrote scripture for the Purpose that "these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name", John 20:31. John speaks of Jesus, and Jesus was a Prophet, and what is written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And NOW that we Know, and believe, we have life through his name".

If the Prophets knew all along that all they had to do was believe on His name, I can't help but wonder why they didn't tell anyone. Also why did they go into Abrahams Bosom upon death? They couldn't go to be with Jesus for He had not yet been born. Could it be that it was not known?

In John 20 above we know they could not have known for Jesus tells us what was knowm while He was on this earth, and that is (John 17 above) in The Father's name Jesus prayed for God to keep those Given to Him.

With this understanding we can see that it is by faith before Jesus shed His Blood, and through faith could not come until after the Cross, and when we are told about it. When are we told about one of mysteries that God Hid from Man? Only After Damascus Road.

And here are some that looked for this saviour.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

This woman could hardly be called a saint, she had been married many times and was living with a man outside marriage. But she believed the OT scriptures and looked for and trusted in the promised Messiah.

And, as the story goes she ran into town and told everyone she had found the Christ. And when these who also truly believed the OT scriptures met and heard Jesus, they believed as well.

John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

You see, those who believed the OT scriptures and understood them (you must believe the scriptures to understand them), looked for the Christ, the Saviour. They understood they were not going to be saved by works.

Yes the Samaritans looked, just as the Jew did, but they (Samaritans) believed only what they wished, and had no idea of what they worshiped, according to Jesus. But as these Samaritans lived, all did a work (idol worship) while they waited. Why would they do A Work, if they did not believe it was necessary? We have people today doing all kinds of work for they believe it is necessary for their salvation, and this includes all religions, with exception of those in the Body of Christ.

It is only false dispensational teaching that confuses you. Believe the scriptures, not theories of man.

Again, I have never said they did not Look for Messiah. as you are trying to imply I have said. In your haste to discredit a "dispensationalist", is it not you are the one "confused". Is it not you that have formed an opinion, without Biblical Truth? Why is it that you refuse to believe what Jesus says while on this earth i.e. Father Keep Them in your name.

This is a far cry from what Jesus Christ had Peter to preach to the Gentile in Acts 10:43, "… through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins". If Peter knew this gospel, why is it at Pentecost he (Peter) preached to the Israelites "Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins.

Why is it that people think they can understand His Word before they ever get to Damascus Road? Did any before know about the RAPTURE?

Did they know about the BODY OF CHRIST, and also explain it to us?

Did they know anything other than to Look For That Kingdom is at Hand Gospel.?

If we Don't Believe our Risen Lord Jesus Christ as He speaks to us from Heaven, then what Gospel is it that we Believe? Is it not as some churches believe, viz. the Great Commission as given in Mark 16:15-18, "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover".

If we say "Well, I believe Matthew 28:19-20"; or perhaps Luke 24:47-49. Well don't we know that all these verses were said in the same setting? Is this where we stop, and then say "I only believe in what Matthew says, and reject the rest. Are not all these the Word of Jesus while on this earth, and are said to HIS PEOPLE.

I say finish reading His Word and see the Wonderful Grace of God explaining to us such things as justification through faith, the body of Christ, the Rapture, and so much more.

Many believe such things as this were KNOWN BEFORE Damascus Road, for that is what we have been taught. What this says is we will believe Jesus while on this earth, then read Paul, and say, "Paul old buddy you're not telling ME anything new. "I already knew all what Christ Jesus told you from heaven". My, My; what such arrogance.

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut, I have never argued that Paul preached repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins. I have simply said that your insistence that there are two different Gospels is unbiblical and makes a liar out of Paul since he teaches in Galatians that there is only one Gospel and anyone who claims otherwise is accursed.

Acts 13:2 tell us the Holy Spirit separated Barnabas, and Saul to the work the Holy Spirit called them. And just as the Holy Spirit had sent them forth, we find in verse 9, we have a change of name of Saul, to Paul. Any time we see a name change, we know something new is going to happen. At the present I can think of three (3) others that had a name change, and when it happened, there were changes made at the same time. Abram to Abraham, Jacob to Isaac, and Simon to Cephas, or Peter in the Greek understanding.

In Romans 1:16-17 we find, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Let's look at this for just a moment. Did Abel live by faith? Hebrews 11 says he did. As we continue through Hebrews11 we can see all lived by faith. Don't we today do the same, i.e. live by faith? So by this gospel, we live as did they, and that is we live by faith. However today we have something that was not available to them, as they lived, and that is justification through faith In Jesus Christ, and His Blood, and not that of animals.

You say Paul "teaches in Galatians that there is only one Gospel". I cannot disagree with you for this scripture is true as we see in Romans 15:25, "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began. Who in the world could believe such tripe as this? Put me in that Camp of Believing our Lord Jesus Christ who revealed this information to Paul.

Today there is One Gospel, and that Gospel is given to us by Christ Jesus from Heaven. We can see a change was made from Peter, and the other Apostles carrying the gospel to the World, from Jerusalem of repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins. All I can find in the one gospel today we are to believe is remission of our sins as we find in Acts 10:43-44, preached to a Gentile. Paul was preaching this Gospel before Peter, but so that all would believe this is the gospel to the Gentile, God had Peter to preach (one time) this gospel to a Gentile, to validate to mankind that Paul is the Apostle to The Gentile, and they in Jerusalem believed him; But only after God told Peter to go preach to one of another nation, which Peter said he had never before done.

The Gospel of Paul greatly differs from the Gospel of John The Baptist. I wish you could see it is another gospel, yet not another gospel that the "troublers" from the Jerusalem Pentecostal church wanted the Gentiles to believe. Paul does not want his his Gentiles taken into bondage (Galatians 1:6-7). There is just no other way a Gentile can enter into the Body of Christ, other than what Paul was told to preach.

You have insisted that Paul never says anything about repentance for the Gentile. I simply prove by Scripture that you are mistaken. Please note the following.

The church at Corinth is obviously a Church composed primarily of Gentiles. There may have been some ethnic Jews there I don't know, neither do you. The Apostle Paul writes to this Church:

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

So you see Ituttut, contrary to your argument the Apostle Paul does speak of repentance to the Gentiles.

May I say I have never said initial Repentance is not necessary, as this is accomplished when we turn to Him, changing our mind, believing He saves us, and the Holy Spirit baptizes us, and seals us into The Body Of Christ. It is that simple, if we believe in our heart that just by believing in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, we will be saved. Christ from heaven never told us to First Repent, and then Turn to Him. Can we save ourselves by doing what was required of the Covenant People? If so, then doesn't it make sense that we MUST BE Baptized for the REMISSION of OUR SINS. This is what Israel was told, but we are not Israel, or some other denomination.

And after our initial salvation we can't keep doing this over, and over, as some denominations do, for we will be trying to Crucify Jesus afresh, believing we must continue to come through His Blood every time we sin. I say His Blood is applied only once, just as He offered His Blood only ONE TIME.

SO TO GET TO YOUR QUESTION in " Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." I don't believe the above scripture is what you are looking for as a believer sinning, for Paul has not sinned.

In verses before, and after the above verse we can see he has caused Godly pain to the Corinthians. It is Godly for the Pain is from God, therefore it cannot be attributed to Paul, so in his sorrow of being the one to send this pain to them, Paul says he has nothing to repent of. What works repentance to salvation? When we Sorrow WITH God for the pain, and NOT OUTSIDE of Him, as do those that are of sorrow of the world, which worketh death."

You can note, surmise, guess, postulate, etc. all you want Ituttut but you are incorrect as usual. The only requirement I have insisted on for salvation is to be among the elect. These God will bring to salvation.

That being said repentance is a part of salvation, just as regeneration, forgiveness, faith, justification, sanctification, and eventually glorification!

Then we agree? We turn to the light, and when we do, we find the Godly Sorrow of God for the Pain He Has to inflect on this Un-Godly world.

 

[ituttut]

Then why was Paul going to Damascus? Scripture states:

Acts 9:1, 2

1. And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2. And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

"Disciples of the Lord" and "any of this way" indicates Christians and where there are Christians there is a Church, that is "called out ones". Or you can find Scripture referring to the Church as the Body of Christ, or the Bride of Christ, or the Bride of the Lamb.

So Cheers to you Ituttut as Jim1999 would say.

And Cheers to you OldRegular, and Happy New Year, as we raise our Glasses.

Christianity is something NEW, just as our New Year rolls around. Not until Barnabas got Paul into Antioch, could a Christian to be found. It is only After Paul is brought to Antioch that Christianity is BORN.

 

[Amy.G]

And Cheers to you OldRegular, and Happy New Year, as we raise our Glasses.

Christianity is something NEW, just as our New Year rolls around. Not until Barnabas got Paul into Antioch, could a Christian to be found. It is only After Paul is brought to Antioch that Christianity is BORN.

Say what? How about the day of Pentacost? I think there were quite a few new born Christians on that day!

 

[OldRegular]

Say what? How about the day of Pentacost? I think there were quite a few new born Christians on that day!

Amy

Ituttut blasphemes every time he says the Gospel was only revealed to Paul. In effect he is saying that the ministry of Jesus Christ on earth was worthless. He is calling Jesus Christ a liar because he denies what Jesus Christ told His Apostles:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

There is dispute about what Jesus Christ meant by "the rock" but I believe that Jesus Christ was talking about Peters declaration of Faith, the faith that all born again believers must have. Nothing is said about a Jewish Church or a Gentile Church, Peter's Church or Paul's Church, only Jesus Christ's Church

Matthew 16:13-17
13. When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14. And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Amy.G]

Honestly, I don't know what kind of doctrine Ituttut is teaching here. I tried to read this thread from the beginning (sorry, I haven't been following it), but I don't think I've ever heard anything like this.

Paul was chosen by God to be the apostle to the Gentiles, but the church existed some time before Paul's conversion. It was the church that Paul was persecuting.

Act 9:4
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?




How can anyone say the church didn't exist until Paul????

 

[OldRegular]

Honestly, I don't know what kind of doctrine Ituttut is teaching here. I tried to read this thread from the beginning (sorry, I haven't been following it), but I don't think I've ever heard anything like this.

Paul was chosen by God to be the apostle to the Gentiles, but the church existed some time before Paul's conversion. It was the church that Paul was persecuting.

Act 9:4
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?




How can anyone say the church didn't exist until Paul????

Ituttut is what is known as a hyper or ultra dispensationalist. I disagree with the classic dispensational doctrine and believe there are errors in it. However, I believe that the doctrinal errors of the ultra dispensationalist reach the point of heresy.

Ryrie has a chapter in his book Dispensationalism on ultra dispensationalism. It was apparently started in England by E. W. Bullinger in the 19th century. Though Ryrie is a dispensationalist [classic] he has a very unfavorable opinion of the doctrine of Bullinger and its variants.

Although I disagree with Ryrie his book is certainly worth reading. You will certainly have a better understanding of where Ituttut gets his heretical beliefs.

As far as dispensationalism is concerned I believe the book Understanding Dispensationalists by Vern S. Poythress is preferable since it better contrasts Covenant and dispensational theology. Both of these books are paperback, reasonably priced, and worth reading.

 

[Winman]

Yes, while you can't lump all hyper-dispensationalists together, they believe in different ages or dispensations. And they believe the scriptures only apply to those who live or lived in that particular age. So when Jesus walked the earth, that was the Dispensation of Law, and many do not think the teachings of Jesus apply to them. Now we are in the Dispensation of Grace and hypers believe generally that only the teachings of Paul apply to them now. They believe certain books only apply to the Jews during the Tribulation and are not written for believers today.

They also believe in more than one gospel, even though Paul warned against preaching any other gospel than he preached.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Now, you would think this double warning from Paul would terrify anyone from preaching more than one gospel, but hyper-dispensationalists ignore these warnings and claim that Paul is only speaking of this age or dispensation. They claim there were other gospels as the gospel of the Kingdom preached by John the Baptist and Jesus Christ.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

They dote on words, believeing this must be a different gospel because it is called the "gospel of the kingdom of God", overlooking that in the very next verse it is simply called "the gospel".

They believe that this gospel was to the Jews only, and that upon repenting the restoration of the kingdom of Israel would have taken place. The Gentiles are completely excluded from this gospel, even though Jesus himself taught the Gentiles would be included.

Matt 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

We know Jesus is speaking of Gentiles here, because in the context he had just healed the servant of a centurion who was a Gentile.

We know also that John the Baptist was preaching the same gospel that Paul taught, because Paul himself verifies this.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

They believe Peter was preaching to the Jews in early Acts that if the Jews repented of killing Jesus and were baptized, then Jesus would immediately return and restore the kingdom. But Jesus himself told the apostles it was not for them to know when he would restore the kingdom.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

They ignore the fact that Jesus answered the apostles directly and said this information was not for them to know, and then insist Peter still preached that Jesus would return immediately if the Jews would repent and be baptized. And this is the one and only verse in all the Book of Acts that even mentions the restoration of the kingdom of Israel.

They also ignore the words "times" and "seasons" which Jesus gave in his answer showing that at least two ages must take place before he would return. Pretty amazing for folks that put so much emphasis on times and ages.

They also ignore that Paul verifies that the same gospel he preached was preached to Abraham.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So again, they choose to overlook this verse that proves there is but one gospel that has been preached throughout the scriptures.

They also insist the "everlasting gospel" in Revelations is a completely seperate gospel than what Paul preached and only applies to a future time. They completely ignore that an "everlasting" gospel would also apply now and to times past as well.

You can show them the scriptures, but they will not listen, or at least I do not know of any that have come out of this false teaching.

 

[OldRegular]

A very good and very informational post Winman. Thanks!

 

[ituttut]

To your part 1

Ituttut said:
I cannot show you that, but I can show you where Peter preached to Jews to repent and did not mention baptism whatsoever, but forgiveness of sins.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Here Peter never mentions baptism, only that they repent and be converted that their sins may be blotted out.

We need to know to whom Peter is preaching this. This is just a very short time after Acts 2:38, and it is still Israel to whom Peter preaches. Let's go back to verses in Chapter 3:12-13 to catch up to where you begin. Acts 3:12-15, "And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
13. The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15. And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses".

By our standards we would have put Israel away at the moment they "killed the Prince of life". But the Father heard the Son's prayer on the Cross of "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" as we see in Luke 23:34.

So before we leave this we know Peter is talking to not just an individual, but to the Nation of Israel, and what is that Nation to do? They are to REPENT, for that Nation delivered up Messiah. So let's not get confused here, Peter offered the Kingdom to ISRAEL, and they (the Nation of Israel) were offered deliverance, by the Deliverer, Jesus Christ, if that Nation repented. We know they Refused.

I believe every word in Scripture, and when I do, I know who is talking, to whom is being addressed, and that was those of the Covenant that He spread His skirt over. Our salvation is on an individual basis, which can include that person's house, not the House of Israel.

How is the Body of Christ being built today? Acts 10:43, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." This is a few short years AFTER Damascus Road, and nowhere before Christ Jesus encountered Saul/Paul on that Road, can we find such a Mind Boggling Statement by God.

Then in Acts 16:30-31 we find these words, "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31. And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Why is it we will not believe Peter who was forced to preach (one time) to a Gentile, and God would not allow Peter to say to Cornelius One Word about repenting or refusing Messiah?

Why is it that Paul honed and schooled by our Lord Jesus Christ , with no Man involved (Galatians 1:11-12), preached to a Gentile (Acts 16:30-31), and says not one word about repenting, as those of Judah must?

We see in Acts 8:12-16, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15. Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16. (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus).

Mustn't we conclude that baptism was still required, after Acts 3, and here we find no such thing as repentance? This will confuse the heck out of those not of the "dispensation's of God. If we let such scriptures as these contradict the Bible, then how can we say there are no contradictions. Until understood there will still continue to be contradictions in His Word.

And I know that dispensationalists believe that Peter preached the re-establisment of the kingdom. But if you read closely you will see that Jesus will not return until at least two times have passed.

Now, I have never understood how dispensationalists who put such emphasis on divisions of times or ages can overlook this, but they do. The scripture says the heaven must receive Jesus until the TIMES of restitution of all things. So there is no way Jesus is going to return immediately.

And if you read Acts 1 you will see Jesus said the same thing.

I don't know how dispensationalist overlook this either (actually I do, because it is completely contrary to their false teaching).

It doesn't get any clearer than this. The apostles asked Jesus directly if he would restore the kingdom at this time.

Jesus told them this information is not for them to know. So, there is no way Peter is going to tell the Jews Jesus would return immediately, because Peter does not know this.

But notice Jesus also mentions TIMES (plural) and SEASONS (plural).

So, at least two times or seasons must pass before Jesus returns whether the Jews repent and get baptized, or whatever they do.

Why would you say we of the dispensational gospel don't understand what scripture says to us. We know exactly what you are talking about for we have read the whole book, and believe it. The Apostles didn't understand what Jesus was talking about, i.e. not until Paul. The next thing you will be telling me is you knew all along what Numbers 21:8-9, before you read John 3:14-15, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life".

No one understood Numbers 21:8-9, until God revealed it to them. And no one understood anything about the rapture until Paul told us about it.

I don't like to say this, but is it you only wish to believe scripture if some can be eliminated, such as a number of things Paul preached. Usually when people don't agree with what Christ Jesus revealed to Paul will not also believe Jesus on earth as we find him speaking in Mark 16:14-18, for neither fit into what they believe.

Can you let yourself believe Ephesians 3:1-6, and Mark 16:14-18? If not then can you claim you believe the Word of God (all of it), that is the Bible?

It is only because you have listened to the false teachings of hyperdispensationalism that you cannot see this. Believe the scriptures and reject the false teachings of man.

I believe scripture as I come to it. In the progression of knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, I then go to the next thing that He tells me. Until I understood what He was telling me, a gentile, I believed I was of another Gospel, yet not another Gospel. I was trying by level best to come by faith, just as everyone from the beginning. As I searched the scriptures, I found evidence that our God from the very beginning let's us know He is a God of Division (Begin in Genesis 1:1).

We are told to study to make ourselves approved, to rightly divide the word of truth. Are we not to be like Him? Then we must learn to do as He, and that is to rightly divide His Word, in order to understand it.

Time to go eat, she says.

 

[Winman]

So before we leave this we know Peter is talking to not just an individual, but to the Nation of Israel, and what is that Nation to do? They are to REPENT, for that Nation delivered up Messiah. So let's not get confused here, Peter offered the Kingdom to ISRAEL, and they (the Nation of Israel) were offered deliverance, by the Deliverer, Jesus Christ, if that Nation repented. We know they Refused.

Just because you say something is true, doesn't mean it is. Yes, they are to repent and believe on Jesus Christ and be converted "that your sins may be blotted out"

Peter does not mention the restoration of the kingdom here, and Peter could not possibly promise them this, because Jesus had already told Peter and the other apostles that it was not for them to know when he would return and restore the kingdom.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Peter had no idea when Jesus would return and restore the kingdom, it was not for him to know. So, no way he is going to promise this to the Jews, unless you actually believe Peter would take it upon himself to preach this presumptuously.

And Peter did not say that anyway, he said their sins would be blotted out. This is the same gospel that Paul preached to the Gentiles and that we still hear today, believe on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins.

But notice in Acts 1:7 Jesus speaks of "times and seasons"

And notice Peter also speaks of "times" in Acts 3:19 and 21. How can you as a dispensationalist overlook this term? Jesus is saying that at least two times must elapse before he would return, and Peter is saying the same thing. So even if all the Jews repented, there would still be two times or seasons which must pass before Jesus would return.

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

How can you overlook that?

Now, I can't be dogmatic about this, but I believe the two times will be the church age and the tribulation. In both ages people will be saved, this is what I believe Peter means by the "times of refreshing" in Acts 3:19. But either way, I think Acts 1:7, and Acts 3:19 and 21 show that two times must pass before Jesus returns.

 

[ituttut]

Part 2

Winman: And Jesus himself preached to the Jews that they could receive the Holy Spirit and never mentioned baptism.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Who is Jesus speaking to here? Jews only.

It is as you say. However do you deny that Jesus preached the Gospel of John the Baptist, of Repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand? Then with this understanding, He also preached "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins".How can you deny this, and also what is found in the Great Commission that the Apostles were to preach to the whole world. They never got close to spreading the gospel of repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins to the whole world.

Another thing is, unless one is a dispensationalist they can never quite keep from Contradicting Scripture. How is This? Because the knowledge found in John 7:39, was not understood, or even remembered, for you cannot find this information spelled out so we can understand until John wrote HIS Gospel Book.

John was the last of the Apostles to write His Book (Jesus said John would tarry), and this is purpose of the Book of John, and Revelation. Can we agree The Gospel of John is not anything like Matthew, Mark, or Luke? What does John say in his Gospel Book? Does it sound like any other Book, or Books? Don't we find in John what Paul wrote in his Epistles, over thirty years earlier?

What must they do to receive the Spirit, the Holy Ghost? Believe on Him.

But not at the time He said this, as verse 39 clearly shows.

Does Jesus mention baptism? No

You say NO, and I say YES, Jesus does mention Baptism, and preached it. Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

How about Mark 16:15-16, "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Just one more for emphasis - John 4:1-2, "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2. (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples").

Does Jesus mention the restoration of the kingdom? No.

So, if it was necessay that the Jews be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit, then Jesus left out a very important detail, didn't he? Of course, if the Jews only need believe on Jesus without baptism to receive the Holy Spirit, then Jesus did not leave out anything, did he?

Please see above.

And Peter confirms this later in Acts if you read carefully.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Shouldn't we ask the question here of when did Peter wake up to what the Lord said? It was after Damascus Road, and God had sent Saul/Paul immediately to in an Arabian Desert in order to begin revealing to Paul his Gospel to the Gentile. Galatians 1:17-18, "Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days."

It was after these three (3) years, and just a short time later we come to Acts 11 to see that among the twelve Apostles in Jerusalem, Peter was chosen from among them to preach the through faith gospel of Justification to a Gentile. Why just this one time does a Jew from Jerusalem preach another gospel other than the Circumcision Gospel, those justified BY faith? This is to verify the legitimacy of the gospel that Paul preached to the Gentile.

We can see in scripture what Peter preached to this Gentile, was not his calling. Only Paul was chosen by Christ Jesus from heaven to be the Apostle to the Gentile, while Peter and the rest were chosen to go to the House of Israel, with that gospel of the circumcision.

Read that carefully. Does Peter say the Jews received the Holy Spirit upon being baptized? No, he says that they received the Holy Spirit by hearing God's Word (as I began to speak). And in verse 17 he confirms they received the gift by believeing (who believed).

What you are completely missing is what gospel did Peter preach to the Gentile. It was "through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sin" as seen in Acts 10:43-44. Peter had never heard of such a gospel before God had him preach (this one time) the through faith Gospel of the Gentile. ROMANS 3:29-30, "Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Winman can you not see there is a Gospel of by faith justification, and another one of through faith justification. In your understanding (misunderstand) you teach the gospel of the circumcised.

So, this is in perfect agreement with John 7:38 where Jesus said those who believed on him would receive the Holy Spirit.

I believe this verse just as I do all scripture, but I know its place. Jesus was right for some Jew's did believe Jesus, and when Pentecost came they did receive the Holy Spirit.Can you tell me of anyone after Paul arrived in Rome that Received the Power of The Holy Spirit? That is a complete different Gospel. This gospel will return After the Rapture, and we can identify who will again posses the Power of the Holy Spirit. They are the 144,000 thousand we see in the Book of Revelation.

Haven't you heard that Jesus said while on this earth He only came for His Sheep, and NO Dog Was Included? Why hold onto that Gospel which speaks of the children that will go into the Tribulation period that of All The World only 144,000 of the 12 Tribes of Israel will be protected by the Holy Spirit from receiving the Mark of the Best?