Once Saved Always Saved part2

[steaver]

I believe the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine has the potential to cause many to make shipwreck of faith.

It has the tendency to deceive many people, causing millions of them to cherish a false sense of security in Christ. It creates a sense of laziness..."Oh, I'm saved, so no matter what I do, I'm sealed!"

Well, I guess I must be an exception to your rule then. Funny you should bring up "sealed".

Eph 1:13In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

But hey, if you think these scriptures are false, then what could I possibly say to convince you otherwise?

:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

I have been saved. I am being saved. And I SHALL be saved! Salvation is a daily process.

I have been married. I am being married. And I SHALL be married! Marriage is a daily process.
--Hmmmmm, makes a lot of sense doesn't it? What if I said that to my wife? I think I will ask her.

You should have seen the reaction as soon as I got to the part "And I SHALL be married!" WHOA! Don't want go there again!

Truth is, When I got saved it was a one time act. Jesus Christ came, and by the power of his Holy Spirit came and indwelt within me. Like marriage we are one. He indwells within me and will never leave me. I also became part of the bride of Christ. I always will be a part of that bride. He will never leave me nor forsake for another. It is like a marriage bond. It happens only once in life.

Just like my wedding, I can remember the date, the time, the circumstances of my salvation. I know who was there, what happened. I can give specific details.
I can do that with both my wedding and my salvation (the time that I was saved)--the day that I was sealed unto the day of redemption (Eph.4:30).
From that day forward I have never doubted that if I should die I would go straight to heaven.
Salvation is not a process; it is an event.

 

[steaver]

I have been married. I am being married. And I SHALL be married! Marriage is a daily process.
--Hmmmmm, makes a lot of sense doesn't it? What if I said that to my wife? I think I will ask her.

You should have seen the reaction as soon as I got to the part "And I SHALL be married!" WHOA! Don't want go there again!

Truth is, When I got saved it was a one time act. Jesus Christ came, and by the power of his Holy Spirit came and indwelt within me. Like marriage we are one. He indwells within me and will never leave me. I also became part of the bride of Christ. I always will be a part of that bride. He will never leave me nor forsake for another. It is like a marriage bond. It happens only once in life.

Just like my wedding, I can remember the date, the time, the circumstances of my salvation. I know who was there, what happened. I can give specific details.
I can do that with both my wedding and my salvation (the time that I was saved)--the day that I was sealed unto the day of redemption (Eph.4:30).
From that day forward I have never doubted that if I should die I would go straight to heaven.
Salvation is not a process; it is an event.

Amen! :thumbs:

Rom 7:4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I'm married, sorry satan, you can't have me, I have been taken! Praise Jesus my Husband. I am bound now by the law of grace in Christ. I'm so glad He will never leave me nor forsake me because Lord knows I have committed adultery against Him.

:jesus:

 

[Lysimachus]

Once Saved Always Saved?

Part 1

Steaver

Changing what the writer just said does not give your position much credibility. You took what the writer said and twisted it into your own presuppositions. Hebrews 10 is a SOLID OSAS doctrine and I am surprised you would bring it up as if it declares OSAS false.

WE are NOT of THEM who draw back unto PERDITION. OSAS.

Praise God for His power to keep that which He has purchased forever!

BTW, good to have you here and I want you to know Lysimachus, you are safe and secure in the arms of Jesus! Don't worry about losing your eternal life, you see, this is why it is called "eternal". God Bless! See ya with Jesus some day.

I did not change what the writer said. I was harmonizing it with what the rest of scripture clearly outlines. As plainly stated throughout the great book, a wicked person can change. But as long as he "remains" in that condition, he is in a damnable state. He has time to repent before his death or the second coming.

The reason why the author of Hebrews makes it plain that we are not of them who draw back unto perdition is because a true Christian will not choose to draw back toward perdition. But this does not take away the possibility that the Christian can change his mind.

There is not one scintilla of scriptural support ANYWHERE found in the Bible that supports the idea that a saved man is locked into a state of security, that no matter what he does, he cannot choose to throw out his salvation. Mark my words on this one. If you want to go through each one, one at a time, we can do that. It will take some time, but I will do it just for you.

1 Tim. 5:12 -- "Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith." -- unequivocal evidence that it is possible to throw off your first faith. In order to have damnation because you threw off your first faith, logic demands that you once had to have been saved.

Now this is not to be meant that the moment you cast off your faith you are damned. The underlying implication is--you have now JUMPED on the road TOWARD damnation. And if you stay on that wrong road, it will eventually lead you to damnation. But you have to GET UP, turn around, and move forward in the right direction again! But it takes your will!

Wow! You sure had to do some fancy defining as not to contradict Hebrews 6. Why all the interjection? Why not just let the scripture speak of marriage and widows as it does and let it go. Presuppositions will cause all kinds of misunderstandings when studying God's word.

The scripture says she has cast of her faith and then you say, no no, this means you have only begun to cast off your first faith. You see how you must make up stuff just to make the scripture speak of your presuppositions?

Once again, I repeat what I said above. In the light of scripture, a wicked person has the chance to repent. The words in 1 Timothy hold true. When you have sinned, you have damnation as long as you stay in that condition. There is a big difference between having damnation and probation closing so that is impossible for you to repent. If I choose to steel and commit adultery, before God, I am in a damned condition. But because Christ died on the cross for me, I can repent, and be cleansed. Praise God for that!

Hbr 7:25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

You see? I don't have to make anything up. This is OSAS.

I'm not sure what mind-frame you're in, but I don't see any contradiction here. Are you saying God randomly comes over you and saves you without you choosing to accept Him first? The entire Bible teaches the conditions of salvation. There is not much to debate on this point.

Ezekiel 33:18,19 - "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if [Notice the conditional element "if"] the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby."

Those who believe in "Once Saved Always Saved" would actually be in more danger of losing their salvation than those who believe that salvation is a daily decision, because this calls for effort to be put forth to cling to Christ.

Do you see anything about born of God, regeneration, Holy Spirit indwellment, eternal life? Again, find some scripture that relates to the topic of OSAS.

Here is another...

Tts 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

WOW! I don't need to explain this passge! Kinda makes the passage in Ezekiel look contradictive, but the bible does not contradict itself anywhere, so I guess each passage needs to be kept within it's context and viewed in light of the NT revelation.

Let me make something clear:

The passages used to support the Possible to Cast Off Salvation teaching cannot harmonize with the Once Saved Always Saved teaching. But the passages used to support the Once Saved Always Saved teaching can harmonize with the Possible to Cast Off Salvation teaching.

Did you just catch that? Might take some thinking, but oh, how true is! Trust me, I've been studying theology enough to know this POWERFUL fact. It is undeniable. And as we continue our debate, I'll prove it to you step-by-step.

Now regarding your quotation of Titus 3:5, you seemed to ignore the qualification of the kind of righteousness. It specifically says the "works of righteousness". Now, the works of righteousness are a far cry different from righteousness itself, so I fail to comprehend how you make such a comparison to Ezekiel 33.

Look up in the dictionary the definition of "righteous", and you will clearly see that righteousness means "free from guilt or sin" (M-W.com). If you are free from guilt and sin, you are saved.

Regeneration, Holy Spirit indwellment, eternal life--they are all wonderful words. But how you can say a righteous man does not possess these attributes is beyond comprehension. In order for you to be free from sin, the Holy Spirit must dwell within you.

Romans 8:10 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

He will not let go of us, but we can let go of Him. The rope of salvation is always there, but we just need to hang on to the rope. We must exercise our will to grab onto the rope that Christ throws out for us. Then, we must put forth effort to hang on for dear life. From there, we will get towed to shore [heaven].

Relax brother (I think, not sure about that name of yours) .

The name Lysimachus was a name I picked in my younger years for an online screen name back in the 90s because I liked I liked Greek armies. Later, the name became a way to provoke questions, and since Lysimachus was one of the 4 heads on the Leopard (Alexander's General) of Daniel 7, it sparked Biblical conversation when people asked me questions. I pray that you are not judging my character simply because I picked this nick-name because I liked Greek soldiers.

There's no rope, no hanging on to do. God has given you the Holy Spirit. God has made you a new creature. God is faithful and will make sure ALL of His children get home safe!

Revelation 3:11 "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

Let's see what sort of gymnastics you will play to get around this verse. Oh let me guess, "this is for Israel only!". (?)

This is a warning to Christians Steaver. If you cannot see this, I'm afraid there isn't much more I can say to you. If you cannot see that a saved individual has to hold fast to his salvation, then you are willingly deceived.

1Th 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

There I go again, giving scripture that needs no fanciful disclaimers

If it's impossible to reject salvation after you have received it, why pray? How do these scriptures connotate any resemblance to a sealed security without any human intervention? Without any striving? Without any overcoming?

(continued…)

 

[Lysimachus]

Part 2

Steaver,

The same lesson can be taught in the allegory of Pilgrims Progress.

Christian chose to be saved, and he began his journey toward the Celestial City. On the way, he ignored counsel and fell into the Slough of Despond. At that very moment, his life was at peril. But what did he do? He cried for "HELP!" Mr. Help came and pulled him out.

Now, at that moment, what would have happened if Christian had not called out for "help"? Help would have not come. He would have sank in the slough, and lost salvation. But because he made human effort, from his own will, the Lord delivered him by coming to his aid.

I guess he had to believe Mr. Help would pull him out of his mistake. That would be faith alone saving him.

Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

What! Another passage needing no disclaimers! "Not of Yourselves" How do you say you must HOLD ON TO THAT ROPE!?

Not of yourself brother, not of yourself.

Grace is the power to overcome sin. Of course it is not of ourselves. We pray to God, he gives us strength, and through him, we are able to overcome. Those who are under grace are keeping the law. Those who are under the law, are breaking the law.

2 Cor 12:9 "And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."

Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Philippians 1:27 "Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel"

Why strive if we're already sealed and saved? Why the admonition?

1 Cor. 15:31 "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily."

Hmm...here Paul himself has to die to self daily. Yet you can get along skip free and not have to struggle, becuase you can NEVER be lost!

1 Cor. 9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

I don't care how you may try to twist it. I don't care how you may try to rationalize it, but Paul is talking about his salvation here based on the context of the entire chapter. Some have tried to rationalize that Paul is not speaking of his salvation, rather his ability to preach. Not according to verse 24 which speaks of the race for the prize of salvation.

So here, even Paul is struggling, to keep his body under subjection, and that even HE who is preaching unto others could be a castaway.

But apparently God has been extended some "special" blessing to you Steaver, because you don't have to worry like Paul did, because Paul could become a castaway, but not you. Wow, I wish it were that easy.

1 Peter 5:8,9 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”

I suppose these warnings to a Christian are for naught? Why be vigilant? Why resist stedfast in faith? If it is impossible for you to cast off your salvation, why any of these warnings?

What a WASTE of time for these authors to give us these warnings!

The Devil is REAL Steaver. And he’s out to get you. Don’t think for a moment that you can just slip into heaven without putting forth effort to resist the Devil. God will give you strength, but you have to choose, and fight temptation.

When someone defends the idea that God does all the work for them, it is usually because they are cherishing some hidden sin in their lives, and they do not want to have to put forth any sacrifice of their own to try and give it up.

(Continued...)

 

[Lysimachus]

Part 3

Steaver,

I believe the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine has the potential to cause many to make shipwreck of faith.

It has the tendency to deceive many people, causing millions of them to cherish a false sense of security in Christ. It creates a sense of laziness..."Oh, I'm saved, so no matter what I do, I'm sealed!"

Well, I guess I must be an exception to your rule then. Funny you should bring up "sealed".

Eph 1:13In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

But hey, if you think these scriptures are false, then what could I possibly say to convince you otherwise?

So are you insinuating that we cannot break a contract with God? Are you saying that after God promises us salvation, that he must still give it to us even if we choose to break his laws?

Let us analyze some of the most popular texts to support the "Once Saved Always Saved" theory:

"And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand." (John 10:28-29)

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord". (Romans 8:38-39)

I must say that these are some of the most encouraging words I've ever read from scripture--words that we Christians so desperately need, and I highly commend ANYONE who uses them!

However, I do believe that these verses need some clarification within the context of the entire sacred writings. While it would seem possible to form the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved" from these verses alone, other verses clarify a deeper understanding and a correct interpretation of these verses. Let us remember, all doctrine must be formed from "here a little, there a little". How do we establish doctrine from scripture?

Isaiah 28:9, 10 -- "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

Now that we've established this understanding, we have to remember that all of God's promises possess a conditional element. That conditional element is iterated countless times throughout scripture with the use of the word "IF". But first, let us emphasize the key points from the above quoted verses:

- "We shall never perish...."

- "Nothing can separate us...",

- "Nobody can snatch us....",

- "No one can snatch us out of the Father's hand..."

But under what conditions you ask? Answer: "IF" we continue in His goodness.

Now I shall make my biblical case for this appropriate understanding:

Romans 11:22 "IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

2 Peter 1:10 "IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall."

Hebrews 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end."

2 Timothy 2:12 (RSV) "IF we endure, we shall also reign with him: If we deny him, he also will deny us."

Hebrews 10:26 "IF we sin willfully . . . there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

1 John 2:15 "IF any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

Romans 8:13 "Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you."

John 15:14 "IF ye live after the flesh, ye shall die."

Matthew 10: 22 “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.”

Matthew 24:13 “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”

Mark 13:13 “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”

Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh . . . I will not blot out his name out of the book of life."

1 John 1:7 "IF we walk in the light . . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

1 John 2:24 "IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."

Hebrews 10:38 "IF any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

John 15:6 "IF a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch."

John 8:51 "IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."

How much more evidence do we need brothers and sisters that the promise of salvation is conditional? The promise holds true as long as we CONTINUE in the paths of righteousness. It could not get any clearer.



And finally...

"Nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy FIRST LOVE. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Revelation 2:4, 5

These same conditions existed for the Children of Israel:

Exodus 19:5 - "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine."

My final comment will be a question.

Steaver, with your doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved, what do you do with all the texts I just gave you? Do they mean anything to you? Or do you just pick and choose what you like and completely ignore these overwhelming texts?

I want an honest answer.

Let me be clear. Salvation is secure. But as LONG as we remain "steadfast to the end"! Once we get to heaven, there will be no more devil. Only then can we say it is impossible to turn back.

I believe what I have presented is the truth. My father, who is a retired minister, also holds to this truth. I can only pray that the Holy Spirit will work on your hearts as you evaluate this data.

May God bless you all, and by the grace of God, I shall see you all in the Kingdom!

Lysimachus

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free!" ~ John 8:32

 

[Lysimachus]

I have been married. I am being married. And I SHALL be married! Marriage is a daily process.
--Hmmmmm, makes a lot of sense doesn't it? What if I said that to my wife? I think I will ask her.

You should have seen the reaction as soon as I got to the part "And I SHALL be married!" WHOA! Don't want go there again!

Truth is, When I got saved it was a one time act. Jesus Christ came, and by the power of his Holy Spirit came and indwelt within me. Like marriage we are one. He indwells within me and will never leave me. I also became part of the bride of Christ. I always will be a part of that bride. He will never leave me nor forsake for another. It is like a marriage bond. It happens only once in life.

Just like my wedding, I can remember the date, the time, the circumstances of my salvation. I know who was there, what happened. I can give specific details.
I can do that with both my wedding and my salvation (the time that I was saved)--the day that I was sealed unto the day of redemption (Eph.4:30).
From that day forward I have never doubted that if I should die I would go straight to heaven.
Salvation is not a process; it is an event.

So then why did the Lord divorce Israel when they broke their promises? Jeremiah 3:8

You mean even after you break your promises, the Lord is going to remain married to you? Thank the Lord that if we repent, the Lord will remarry us.

The more I read, the more I'm realizing how there is absolutely no heaven-sent light to this doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.

 

[DHK]

So then why did the Lord divorce Israel when they broke their promises? Jeremiah 3:8

The Lord had a permanent relationship with Israel, but often used anthropormophisms or metaphors to help us understand more about his character. If the Lord was truly divorced from Israel, then the Lord would not have told Jeremiah in verse 12:

Jeremiah 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
--Things were different in the OT. You cannot apply OT illustrations to the NT., especially those concerning adultery and fornication.

You mean even after you break your promises, the Lord is going to remain married to you? Thank the Lord that if we repent, the Lord will remarry us.

Salvation is not contingent on me. Salvation is of the Lord. It is all of Him. He provided it. He saved me. He keeps me. It is all of Him.
It would be an insult to Christ to say that I had a part in His salvation, in helping him pay the penalty for the sins of the world; yet that is what you are suggesting--which is blasphemy.
The Bible teaches that even though we are unfaithful, He remains faithful always. I am married to the Lord once. If I sin, all my sins are under the blood--past, present, and future. The Lord has forgiven them all.

That again is like marriage. When I got married it was "til death do us part; in sickness and in health," etc. It was not "I do, until you make a mistake and then it is divorce." I never married a wife like that and never said vows like that, and don't know of anyone that do. Yet you think that salvation is like that. Absurd! I married my wife for life.
And I am joined to Christ for eternity.

Christ married me (as part of his bride) for eternity. And if I sin, that sin is already under the blood. As far as salvation is concerned it will never be remembered again.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

The more I read, the more I'm realizing how there is absolutely no heaven-sent light to this doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.

It seems that you haven't read the Scriptures.

 

[steaver]

Let us remember, all doctrine must be formed from "here a little, there a little". How do we establish doctrine from scripture?

Isaiah 28:9, 10 -- "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

Now that we've established this understanding,.........

Isaiah 28:1-13 is a "woe" pronounced on the drunkards of Ephraim. These people had erred through wine . . . strong drink. Both Priest and prophet have joined the debauchery of the nation. The drunkenness of the people, leaders, and clergy of Ephraim is so severe that the prophet states that their tables are full of vomit. Isaiah then raises the question of how God can teach these people when they are in such a condition. They are incapable of receiving knowledge or doctrine. The familiar reference to precept upon precept; line upon line is to be taken negatively, not positively. The word for introduces the statement quoted by the prophet from the people who are weary of listening to his prophecies. In essence, they are complianing that his repetitious message is petty and annoying: "rule upon rule" and "line upon line". The idea is that the people are complaining that all they hear from this prophet is one rule and one standard after another, and they are weary of it because they have never learned to obey the One who is the Source of the law. Young (II, p. 276) observes that here a little, and there a little refers to the fact that the people did not understand the prophet's message in it's fullness, but merely regarded it as "incoherent", disparate bits of instruction cast here and there." (Commentary from Edward E. Hindson, Th.D., D.Min.)

Therefore your reference of Isaiah 28 as a bases for forming doctrine is incorrect. Isaiah 28 has nothing to do with establishing sound doctrine.

With that said, the practice of hermeneutics, staying in context, and harmony must be observed. As you can see, using Isaiah 28 for establishing doctrine is using Isaiah 28 out of it's context. Knowing now how you made this error you should take a deep breath and consider that you may be making additional errors while expressing your pov. Stay humble brother!

This will be a test to see if you are willing to revisit your point of views and make necessary adjustments within your debate. Many times people here are claerly shown how they took a passage out of it's context yet they ignore the fact and continue to repeat the same old worn out errors over and over. Are you willing to study Isaiah 28, check it out, and admit you were mistaken in using it for esablishing doctrine?

I use to use it just like you have, but when shown that I was misusing it I repented and haven't referenced it again when debating hermeneutics.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

The reason why the author of Hebrews makes it plain that we are not of them who draw back unto perdition is because a true Christian will not choose to draw back toward perdition. But this does not take away the possibility that the Christian can change his mind.

"A true Christian will not choose to draw back unto perdition, BUT.... the Christian can change his mind".

Which way is it?

It is just as the writer states "WE are not of them who draw back unto perdition; ..." Try not to add your own trailers at the end of messages given in scripture. Let it say what it says. The only "BUT" is this one..."but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

:thumbs:

 

[steaver]

There is not one scintilla of scriptural support ANYWHERE found in the Bible that supports the idea that a saved man is locked into a state of security, that no matter what he does, he cannot choose to throw out his salvation. Mark my words on this one. If you want to go through each one, one at a time, we can do that. It will take some time, but I will do it just for you.

You'll do that just for little ol me? Thank you! I would like that very much. These post have been to long trying to cover too much material at once. Let's slim them down and take one passage at a time. Pick your sword!

:godisgood:

 

[steaver]

Let me make something clear:

The passages used to support the Possible to Cast Off Salvation teaching cannot harmonize with the Once Saved Always Saved teaching. But the passages used to support the Once Saved Always Saved teaching can harmonize with the Possible to Cast Off Salvation teaching.

Did you just catch that? Might take some thinking, but oh, how true is! Trust me, I've been studying theology enough to know this POWERFUL fact. It is undeniable. And as we continue our debate, I'll prove it to you step-by-step.

Well that settles it then! I guess I'll trust you and just believe what you tell me. If you said it then it must be true since you have been studying theology for soo long. I just can't figure out why this then is even a subject of debate, you would think that anyone who has been studying theology long enough would surely agree that OSAS is bogus! I have an entire library of extenstively degreed scholars who have been studying theology for decades and they disagree with you, go figure! Hey, glad your here to set us pew warmers straight! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

I pray that you are not judging my character simply because I picked this nick-name because I liked Greek soldiers.

Character? I didn't know your "gender". "brother" or "sister". I didn't know the gender of the name. :wavey:

 

[Lysimachus]

The Lord had a permanent relationship with Israel, but often used anthropormophisms or metaphors to help us understand more about his character. If the Lord was truly divorced from Israel, then the Lord would not have told Jeremiah in verse 12:

Jeremiah 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
--Things were different in the OT. You cannot apply OT illustrations to the NT., especially those concerning adultery and fornication.

Well, I wouldn't want to go off topic, but I believe the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24-27 to have been Israel's "last chance". I believe that as a nation, Israel is no longer God's people, and their probation closed in 34 A.D. after Christ told the pharisees that the kingdom of God would be taken from them and given to a nation bearing fruit. I also believe that all of God's promises are conditional based on our obedience to him. He will never forsake us, but we are capable of forsaking him.

Salvation is not contingent on me. Salvation is of the Lord. It is all of Him. He provided it. He saved me. He keeps me. It is all of Him.
It would be an insult to Christ to say that I had a part in His salvation, in helping him pay the penalty for the sins of the world; yet that is what you are suggesting--which is blasphemy.
The Bible teaches that even though we are unfaithful, He remains faithful always. I am married to the Lord once. If I sin, all my sins are under the blood--past, present, and future. The Lord has forgiven them all.

I would have to agree. Salvation is wholly of the Lord. Of ourselves we can do nothing. I have no disagreement here.

However, is it not clear from scripture that we must first accept the gift of salvation before it can be ours? Think of parents giving free gifts to their children. Assuming we're talking about good parents here, they will not take away the gift from their child. But that child has the choice to throw that gift in the garbage. The parents can't stop him from doing that, but they did not take away the gift from their child. The promise still holds. The child has to claim the promise by keeping that gift.

In order for God to save people, there has to be the element of human cooperation. To think otherwise is to live on presumption.

That again is like marriage. When I got married it was "til death do us part; in sickness and in health," etc. It was not "I do, until you make a mistake and then it is divorce." I never married a wife like that and never said vows like that, and don't know of anyone that do. Yet you think that salvation is like that. Absurd! I married my wife for life.
And I am joined to Christ for eternity.

Christ married me (as part of his bride) for eternity. And if I sin, that sin is already under the blood. As far as salvation is concerned it will never be remembered again.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

It seems that you haven't read the Scriptures.

And I whole-heartedly agree! The only difference is that I believe it is still possible for us to reject Christ if we do not remain faithful to Him.

Rev. 3:16 "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

To me it's very apparent that those who have been with Christ will be spued out of God's mouth if they turn their backs on him. There are COUNTLESS individuals who have claimed to be saved, yet they ended up rejecting Christ in the end and became some of the worst people. Can I judge them? No, but I can't say they are going to heaven in their current condition either.

James 4:6, 7 -- "But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

Why does James admonish us to "resist the devil" if there is no human cooperation? Even when we are under God's grace, God expects us to resist the devil. If we cooperate with God, He will impart strength to overcome as Christ overcame.

Here are a couple more texts to ponder:

James 1:6 -- "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."

Hebrews 10:23,24 -- "Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised; ) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works."

Why are we counseled to not "waver" if it is impossible to jump off the ship? The promise that the ship is going straight to heaven remains. But nobody is going to stop you from jumping off the ship if you choose. Not until we have reached the shore (heaven) can we say that it is impossible to cast off salvation.

Verses 25 and 26 continue to build the case and clarify:

Verse 25 -- "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

Verse 26 -- "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

Is the scripture not clear that even after we have received the knowledge of the truth, we can still wilfully afterward?

Now let us continue further....

Hebrews 10:38,39 --- "Now the just shall live by faith: but IF any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

How clear this last verse makes it that we can turn back if we don't press on. But because we live by faith, we will not be among those who draw back! If it were not true that we can turn back, there would be no need for the apostle to even write this!

AMEN!

 

[steaver]

Revelation 3:11 "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

Let's see what sort of gymnastics you will play to get around this verse. Oh let me guess, "this is for Israel only!". (?)

This is a warning to Christians Steaver. If you cannot see this, I'm afraid there isn't much more I can say to you. If you cannot see that a saved individual has to hold fast to his salvation, then you are willingly deceived.

Here you have posted a passage which clearly states..."hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

Apparantly you believe that a "man" can "take" my salvation. This contradicts Jesus saying..."no man can pluck them out of my hand" (John10)

Therefore "that which thou hast" cannot be refering to eternal life.

In fact, "crown" is never associated with "eternal life". Crowns are rewards, no matter what the crown which is in view here, it is never eternal life. Eternal life is a gift, given the moment one calls on Jesus Christ and is "eternal" which means it never ends.

"Crown of life" itself is not eternal life. The crown of life is given to those who have suffered martyrdom for their faith in Christ. (Rev 2:10)

According to the context of the passage Rev 3, this crown spoken of could be the Incorruptible Crown given for victorious lives of purity in Christ (1Co 9:25). Men can very well corrupt a believer in Christ and cause that Christian to lose this crown. But a man cannot cause a Christian to lose eternal life for no man can pluck us out of Jesus' hand.

Or it could be the "crown of life" since verse 8 states "for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name." Verse 10 states "thou hast kept the word of my patience," Apparantly this church was experiencing some of the same thing the church at Smyrna was...they were called to endure the wrath of satan unto death and receive the crown of life for their martyrdom.

What these people have in this church is not the crown itself, yet, but the incorruptable character that is needed to receive this crown. Or have so far endured the persecution leading near death. They, and we, are encouraged to hold fast to our stance for truth and holy living, so we may not lose this crown or die for Christ that we not lose this crown. Which such a crown would be a great gift to have when we cast any crowns we have received at the feet of Jesus.

Remember also, crowns are something to come, eternal life is given at the moment of regeneration. born again.

Oh, but wait a minute. I believe in OSAS so why should i care about holy living! raying:

Which gymnastic apparatus do you choose? The balancing beem? The hoops?

:jesus:

 

[DHK]

Well, I wouldn't want to go off topic, but I believe the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24-27 to have been Israel's "last chance". I believe that as a nation, Israel is no longer God's people, and their probation closed in 34 A.D. after Christ told the pharisees that the kingdom of God would be taken from them and given to a nation bearing fruit. I also believe that all of God's promises are conditional based on our obedience to him. He will never forsake us, but we are capable of forsaking him.

Daniel 9:24-27 is a tremendous prophecy that calculates almost to the day the first coming of Christ. It also prophecies the coming Tribulation and the coming Antichrist. It says nothing about "Israel's last chance."
Paul writing well after 34 A.D., (he wasn't saved until after that date) wrote this:
1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
--It is obvious that the Jews still existed. Israel still existed.

At even a later date, after the first epistle to the Corinthians, he writes:
Romans 9:3-4 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
--Israel still existed far after Pentecost. Paul wasn't writing about something nonexistent. We wasn't praying about the air. He was praying for his nation--his kinsman according to the flesh--that nation that still existed, according to Paul's own words. Do you deny Paul's words?

I would have to agree. Salvation is wholly of the Lord. Of ourselves we can do nothing. I have no disagreement here.

However, is it not clear from scripture that we must first accept the gift of salvation before it can be ours?

Of course, that is what salvation is all about.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." It is that simple.

Think of parents giving free gifts to their children.

I give free gifts to my children. First they are my children. They will always be my children. There is nothing that can ever change that fact. No one can change their DNA. Nothing you or anyone else can do can change the fact they will always be my children. The fact that I am able to give gifts to them is simply a matter of either compassion or grace depending on the circumstances.

Assuming we're talking about good parents here, they will not take away the gift from their child. But that child has the choice to throw that gift in the garbage. The parents can't stop him from doing that, but they did not take away the gift from their child. The promise still holds. The child has to claim the promise by keeping that gift.

No he doesn't. He is my child no matter whether he takes the gift or not. He was born my child and nothing can ever change that. He can do what he wants with the gift. That is a red herring and totally irrelevant to the fact that he is my child.

When I was born again I was born into the family of God and nothing, absolutely nothing, can ever change that fact. I was given eternal life. Nothing, absolutely nothing can change that fact. If eternal life could be taken away then it would not be eternal; it would only be temporary, and Christ would be found to be a liar. Eternal means eternal, not temporary. Do words have meaning with you?

In order for God to save people, there has to be the element of human cooperation. To think otherwise is to live on presumption.

Salvation throughout the Bible is unconditional, and always has been. It is all of Christ. Man does nothing; merits nothing; deserves nothing; and does not have a part in the work of Christ. It is unconditionally the work of Christ. There is no human cooperation! What part did you play in atoning for the sins of mankind? I would really like to know.

And I whole-heartedly agree! The only difference is that I believe it is still possible for us to reject Christ if we do not remain faithful to Him.

That is not Biblical. God remains faithful even when we do not. It is God that keeps our salvation; not we.
Does this verse have no meaning to you:

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
--Christ began the work; and will continue to perform it until he comes.
It is not me; it is Christ.

Rev. 3:16 "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

To me it's very apparent that those who have been with Christ will be spued out of God's mouth if they turn their backs on him. There are COUNTLESS individuals who have claimed to be saved, yet they ended up rejecting Christ in the end and became some of the worst people. Can I judge them? No, but I can't say they are going to heaven in their current condition either.

1. He is writing to pastors of churches.
2. Churches are composed of believers, thus he is writing to believers.
3. Who are those that are cold? They also are believers; hence the lukewarm are also believers?
4. He is speaking about the level of Christian service, not salvation.
5. He is using a dramatic illustration for effect. The promise is that Christ will never leave us nor forsake us. You cannot compose doctrine out of an illustration. Proper hermeneutics ought to teach you that.
6. The next verse, 17, tells us that he was speaking of the church's worldliness, not salvation. The Lord hates worldliness in believers, but that doesn't make them unsaved.

James 4:6, 7 -- "But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

Why does James admonish us to "resist the devil" if there is no human cooperation? Even when we are under God's grace, God expects us to resist the devil. If we cooperate with God, He will impart strength to overcome as Christ overcame.

Look through the book of James. Almost every chapter begins with "my brethren." He is speaking to believers. It is a book written about practical Christian living. That is the theme. To the believer God gives more grace, not the unbeliever. God gives grace to the humble believer not the unbeliever. God gives grace to the believer who submits himself to God, not the unbeliever. The believer is commanded to resist the devil. This command is given in many places in the Bible, not just here. We are in spiritual warfare. We need to resist the devil. Jesus resisted the devil, as he was tempted by him in the wilderness. Is is so unusual that we should be tempted by the devil, that we need to resist him?
There is no human cooperation here. This is not speaking of salvation. It is spiritual warfare. What has this to do with salvation? Nothing!

Here are a couple more texts to ponder:

James 1:6 "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."

--Nothing to do with salvation.

Hebrews 10:23,24 "Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised; ) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works."

Why are we counseled to not "waver" if it is impossible to jump off the ship? The promise that the ship is going straight to heaven remains. But nobody is going to stop you from jumping off the ship if you choose. Not until we have reached the shore (heaven) can we say that it is impossible to cast off salvation.

Take Scripture in its context. A believer's faith may waver when asking for something in prayer. He may be unsure if it is the will of God. James goes on and explains that in James 4:1-4. Read the passage. It has nothing to do with salvation.

Verses 25 and 26 continue to build the case and clarify:

Verse 25 "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

This has nothing to do with salvation, but with fellowship with one and other as believers. You like to take Scripture out of context don't you?

Verse 26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

Is the scripture not clear that even after we have received the knowledge of the truth, we can still wilfully afterward?

What was the author explaining. There is only one sacrifice for sins. That is Jesus Christ. There is no other sacrifice.
There are many that consider another way (such as Jews) even after they have heard the truth. These Jews (the book's name is Hebrews) were considering going back to Judaism. There was nothing in Judaism.

Now let us continue further.

Hebrews 10:38,39 --- "Now the just shall live by faith: but IF any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

How clear this last verse makes it that we can turn back if we don't press on. But because we live by faith, we will not be among those who draw back! If it were not true that we can turn back, there would be no need for the apostle to even write this!

How clear it is indeed!
We are not of them that draw back. We believe in them that believe to the saving of the soul! Are not you? Don't you believe that Christ can save one's soul? There is the promise right there. The believer does not draw back unto perdition. The unbeliever may; the believer never.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Lysimachus: There is not one scintilla of scriptural support ANYWHERE found in the Bible that supports the idea that a saved man is locked into a state of security, that no matter what he does, he cannot choose to throw out his salvation.

HP: The truth well stated I might add. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The believer does not draw back unto perdition. The unbeliever may; the believer never.

HP: Simply a half truth at best in light of the way we hold our salvation, i.e., by faith and not by absolute knowledge as some falsely proclaim. All that persevere will indeed be counted as believers in the last day and all believers found in Him with Christ as their advocate will indeed persevere. That in no wise eliminates the possibility of one entering into a hope of salvation but in the end makes shipwreck of it, or the one that entered into a certain hope but left their first estate and are now deceived as to their standing before God due to the deceitfulness of sin, or those that were simply deceived from the start concerning their salvation.

So yes, the believer that perseveres indeed will not be of those that draw back. I want to be among that faithful remnant! Don’t you? 2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

 

[DHK]

So yes, the believer that perseveres indeed will not be of those that draw back.

Let's apply everything you say to yourself. That way you can make perfectly clear what you are saying does apply to believers.
Do you believe you are going to draw back into perdition?
If so how?

I want to be among that faithful remnant! Don’t you?

I am among that faithful remnant, no questions asked. I am 100% absolutely sure. What makes you unsure of your salvation? Why do you doubt that you are not of that faithful remnant?

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

"Except ye be reprobates." I know for 100% sure that I am not a reprobate; that is that I am saved. Don't you know that? Are you a reprobate? Are you saved? How do you know? How do you know for sure if you are a reprobate or if you are a child of God? Have you no assurance?

1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

The Spirit that dwells in me is the Holy Spirit. I am 100% sure of that, and it needs no testing.
Do you actually need to test the spirit in you because you believe you may have a false spirit, the spirit of antichrist (context) dwelling in you? Do you believe you have the spirit of antichrist or even a false spirit dwelling in you? Then why do you say to other believers to test the spirits if you don't believe that you have the spirit of antichrist, or do you

I am not making any false accusations here. I said at the beginning that I am applying the very Scripture that you post to yourself. By posting this Scripture these are the accusations that you are putting on others. I hope you see that now.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
So yes, the believer that perseveres indeed will not be of those that draw back.

DHK: Let's apply everything you say to yourself. That way you can make perfectly clear what you are saying does apply to believers.
Do you believe you are going to draw back into perdition?
If so how?

HP: I apply everything to myself. Do you believe I would admonish others to do that which I would not do myself? I am commanded to test the spirits as well as to examine myself to see IF I be of the faith.

DHK: I am among that faithful remnant, no questions asked.

HP; Oh but there are questions asked of all of us. Do you love God? Is your love evident by the life you and I live and the intents we form on a daily basis? Either we love God, as seen by our keeping of the commandments, or we are servants of the enemy of our souls and as such deceived as to our standing before Him and the spirits witness to our lives. We cannot serve God and mammon. We cannot be servants of the Most High God and at the same time be found committing acts of sin.

Read 1John 5. It speaks in clear terms that if we love God,(and there lieth no hope of eternal life outside of love towards God and our fellowman)we keep (not should, or might or maybe, BUT “KEEP”) the commandments. Tell me DHK, how can one keep the commandments if in fact they are in the persistent act of willful disobedience to known commandments of God? If a spirit testifies to our spirits peace and safety, yet our hearts condemn us, are we to believe that spirit? Is not a test of the spirits a check to see if in fact they testify of the truth? If a spirit testifies to our hearts that we love God and yet our conscience condemns us for failure to obey the commandments, are we to believe the spirit? I certainly think not. God gave us a conscience to be used as a tool to see if we are of the faith or not. If our conscience condemns us, so does God being greater than us and knowing all things. If we are in direct violation of the commandments, and our conscience does not condemn us, such a one is far gone in deception. Such a one would certainly be found to have made shipwreck of the faith. They would either be bordering on grieving the Holy Spirit to a place that He has possibly given them up to their vile affections or the Holy Spirit has indeed left them. They can believe anything they so desire at that point, but if they are laying claim to an act of faith in the past, they are deceived as to their standing before God now. They are in deception.

DHK: I am 100% absolutely sure. What makes you unsure of your salvation?

HP: If you or anyone believes they are beyond deception, they are a prime candidate for deception. I hold my salvation by faith, faith that will be tested in this world and does not come to full fruition until the next. Now I have faith, with the real possibility of deception, but when I stand before Him and here those words “Well done thou good and faithful servant” and see my name in the Lambs Book of Life, then and only then will I have 100% knowledge of my standing and my faith will dissipate as the morning fog and my faith be turned to sight.

DHK: Why do you doubt that you are not of that faithful remnant?

HP: Who said I doubted that I will be of that faithful remnant? I do not recall saying that. If I have, remind me of where I have said it. I have faith that I am, but faith is not synonymous with 100% absolute knowledge you speak of.
Quote:
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

DHK: "Except ye be reprobates." I know for 100% sure that I am not a reprobate; that is that I am saved.

HP: Then you also have a clear conscience before God and are cognizant of keeping the commandments. Certainly we can and do know by faith our standing before God, but such knowledge is proven or established in our minds via the Holy Spirit when our conscience is clear before Him. If ones conscience is not clear, and yet a spirit testifies to us that we are in right standing, do not believe that spirit. It is not testifying of the truth. If we are not overcoming the world as testified by the Spirit via our conscience, then we can have no confidence of our standing before God. “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world.” Certainly we will not be overcomers apart from believing on God, but one that says I believe, yet fails to overcome, has no right to believe that their faith alone will save them. “Faith without works is dead being alone.”

DHK: How do you know? How do you know for sure if you are a reprobate or if you are a child of God? Have you no assurance?

HP: Here is a clear passage that answers those questions. 1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.