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Once Saved, Always Saved
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Why not address that Paul spoke to non-indwelt people using spiritual milk. Why shift to an "against the person" fallacy?
When faced with the truth of scripture, which is some, many, lost non-indwelt people seek God, why continue to read into "None seek God" with the addition, None ever seek God? Luke 13:24, Romans 9:30-33
Now since it is God who puts individuals into Christ, a spiritual relocation, why think a saved person can somehow relocate himself or herself out of God's hand and back into the domain of darkness?
A careful reading of the "loss of salvation" verses reveal that loss of potentially earned rewards is taught, but the person who engages in poor or no ministry still enters heaven, but as one escaping from a fire, bringing little or nothing with the person fleeing.
What is wrong with you, Van? Have you taken leave of your senses? Why do you ignore plain Scripture?
Unsaved man cannot seek after God, God must come to him first.
Romans 3:10-12
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
Paul is echoing the words of Isaiah. Unsaved man cannot seek after God no matter how many times you say he can!
Again the use of the "against the person" fallacious argumentation.
Is the issue that all people are conceived in a "unrighteous state? Nope so obfuscation
There is none that understands what? That lost non-indwelt people seek God? No, only some do not understand.
Are there none that ever seek God? Nope. All Calvinists do is repeat the verse that does not say no lost person ever seeks God as if it did. I kid you not.
Has everyone turned to sin? Yes, not at issue.
Is it me [Van] that says, "Luke 13:24,
“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
The words of course are those of Christ Jesus, not Van.
1 Corinthians 3:1 NASB
And I, brothers and sisters, could not speak to you as spiritual people but only as fleshly, as to infants in Christ.
Here Paul is speaking to recently born anew believers, and he tells them he could not speak to them as spiritual, meaning they were not yet mature believers and had not yet acquired the capacity to understand spiritual solid food, but they could understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel. Rather, he had to speak to them just as he spoke to lost people, not indwelt, and therefore unable also to understand spiritual solid food. So Paul is saying non-indwelt and recently indwelt people need spiritual milk, because they cannot understand or cannot yet understand spiritual solid food.
Thus to read into 1 Corinthians 2:14 that natural, non-indwelt people, cannot understand spiritual milk is false doctrine.
And I, brothers and sisters, could not speak to you as spiritual people but only as fleshly, as to infants in Christ.
Here Paul is speaking to recently born anew believers, and he tells them he could not speak to them as spiritual, meaning they were not yet mature believers and had not yet acquired the capacity to understand spiritual solid food, but they could understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel. Rather, he had to speak to them just as he spoke to lost people, not indwelt, and therefore unable also to understand spiritual solid food. So Paul is saying non-indwelt and recently indwelt people need spiritual milk, because they cannot understand or cannot yet understand spiritual solid food.
Thus to read into 1 Corinthians 2:14 that natural, non-indwelt people, cannot understand spiritual milk is false doctrine.
Tenchi
Member
No, these are not false claims but what is plainly stated in the verses I cited.
What does the verse say?
John 6:44-47
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Any clarification/qualification of this verse in what immediately follows it? Yes.
45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And the shall be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Those whom God draws are drawn by hearing and learning of Christ (vs. 45) and believing what they've learned (vs. 47). Paul says essentially the same in Romans 10:9-14 and 2 Timothy 1:12b. How is any of this a "false claim"? You've asserted that it is but without showing that it is.
Here's John 16:8 in its immediate context:
John 16:7-14
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
So, you've offered your own "version" of John 16:8 and I've simply quoted it above, demonstrating that the verse says exactly what I said that it did. Where's the "false claim"?
2 Timothy 2:25
25 ...if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
As I said, Paul writes here that God enables the lost sinner to "change his/her mind" - repent - such that they may acknowledge the Truth. Where's the "false claim"?
Galatians 3:22-26
22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Does Paul speak in the above quotation about the Gospel? If so, where, exactly? What role did Paul assign to the Law in this passage? Does the Law reveal the Gospel? Where does Paul plainly state this in the passage above?
Paul wrote that the law kept the Jew "in custody" under itself "shutting them up to faith," serving as a "tutor" leading them to justification through faith in Jesus Christ, instead of through itself. Does Paul mean by "law" the entire OT? He doesn't indicate this in the passage above. What justification from the passage do you have to extend his meaning to the entire OT? And how, exactly, does the Law serve as a "tutor" who leads the Gentile lost person to Jesus today? What understanding of the OT Jewish law would they have had that would have "tutored" them to Christ?
You might read Romans 7 to help you in better understanding the passage above.
Where did I write that one must "enter then believe"? Nowhere.
I'm not a Calvinist. I'm pretty sure I've already plainly said so in this thread. Consequently, I'm not going to defend Calvinist doctrine which I've not put forward. In any case, the passage in John 3 doesn't "fully support your sequence"; it can't, since Jesus isn't explaining your sequence to Nicodemus but the centrality of the Holy Spirit to spiritual regeneration.
???
TheOneWhoLives
Member
1 Cor. 3:1, NKJV. 'And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people, but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.'
Now the first thing to understand is that the Corinthian Christians were neither unbelievers ("carnal") nor brand new converts. It seems likely that Paul arrived in Corinth in the autumn of AD 50 and stayed 18 months (Acts 18:11). Most commentators (e.g. Simon Kistemaker) date 1 Corinthians at AD 55, so most of the Corinthian church members would have been Christians for between 3 and 5 years. Note that Paul is very complimentary about the church at the beginning of the letter (c.f. 1:4-9). Clearly, he regards them as Christians.
So in 3:1, he is not saying that they are unbelievers or that they are literally "Babes in Christ" but that they are acting like such in one particular matter. 'For where there are envy, strife and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?' (v.3). And these divisions etc. are the reasons why he cannot move on the church from milk to meat. He has to sort this problem out first.
Therefore, 1 Cor. 3:1 is addressed to Christians, and has nothing whatever to do with the fact that 'The natural man does not receive the things of the Sprit of God' (1 Cor. 2:14). The natural, unconverted man cannot receive either milk or meat, for it's all foolishness to him. If an attractive sermon causes him to take an interest for a week or two, that's as long as it will last. He may hang around the church a bit longer if he likes the people, but unless God opens his eyes to receive the Gospel, he never will, and eventually he will drift off.
Romans 3:10-12. 'There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable.'
To make 'there is none who seeks after God' mean 'there are some who seek after God' is simply wresting the Scriptures, especially after the 'no. not one' at the start of the passage and the 'all' at the end of it.
I do not intend to post further on this thread, on the grounds of Proverbs 14:7.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Note the context of this verse. We need to read 1Co_2:6-14
Note the wording of 1Co_2:14 NKJV. It say “the natural man does not receive G1209 the things of the Spirit of God” it does not say that he cannot receive them. While conviction by the Holy Spirit Joh_16:8, and the drawing by Christ Joh_12:32, is extended to every sinner Mar_16:15, 1Ti_2:3-4 this does not overrule their free will. Many will hear the gospel message by which they can be saved Rom_1:16 but will reject it for reasons only they know.
We do have a number of verses that show that the natural man does in fact receive the word of God. You have to answer why we would have the gospel preached if the natural man could not receive it or why the gospel is called the power of God for salvation if natural man could not accept it as the truth.
The point that Isaiah and Paul are making is that the lost man cannot seek after God on his own, he is totally depraved.
Once the Gospel is heard, there is the choice to accept or reject that Gospel.
When the Gospel is given by the Holy Spirit through whatever means, He makes Christ real and alive in the heart of the hearer.
Convicting of sin and piercing the heart with truth. Only He (the Holy Spirit) can do this for man.
Without this work of the Holy Spirit no one can be saved! That's why it's so very important that the Gospel be proclaimed on this earth.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@Martin Marprelate that just speaks of the height of arrogance on your part. Should we apply the same verse to future dealing with you? It would appear so considering your mishandling of the Romans 3 text.
That you do not even understand the context of Paul's comments in Romans 3 speaks volumes.
Paul was pointing the Jews back to their own scriptures to show that in their trying to keep the law they had failed and were all condemned.
If you had just read a bit further you would have seen the error of your view.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, {the Jews Paul was speaking of} that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. {no one keeps the whole law}
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
So we see that all can and some actually do seek God and those that do and place their trust in Him are justified because of that trust/faith.
Have you ever been in Church with the preacher preaching the Word, and you notice someone twitching and squirming around, they sometimes breathe heavily and wipe their faces continually?
That is the conviction of the Holy Spirit dealing with that person, the Holy Spirit is calling with the truth of Jesus Christ.
That person is faced with a decision that can't be set aside, they will accept or reject Christ there on the spot.
That is the conviction of the Holy Spirit dealing with that person, the Holy Spirit is calling with the truth of Jesus Christ.
That person is faced with a decision that can't be set aside, they will accept or reject Christ there on the spot.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Totally depraved does not mean total inability as you seem to think. Man can hear and respond to the gospel message or any of the other means that God uses to draw man to Himself.
Remember the Holy Spirit convicts the whole world so all have the ability to respond to the drawing of God. Whether they do is up to the person. God has given man the free will with which to make real choices.
By what you have said then everyone that is going to trust in God should do so at the time they hear the gospel and we know that is not the case. Many people have had the message presented to them more than once or have not trusted for months or even years.
I have had people come to faith in Christ through understanding creation and the God of creation. It was only after that that they were even willing to look at the cross.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That is just once way that God draws people to Himself. I do not disagree that the Holy Spirit can cause the effect as you described but I would not limit God to only one way of reaching people.
I think that is where some people fail as they can only see people drawn to salvation through one means.
I agree there are multiple ways. One could read a Gospel tract and the Holy Spirit work through it.
The point is that the Holy Spirit must be involved to convict by whatever means available with the Word.
We basically agree here, Siverhair!
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I can not fully agree with you on that point as then you make it God's responsibility as to whether the person accepts or rejects Him.
If the Holy Spirit does not convict then the person will not believe and vise versa.
I see the conviction of the Holy Spirit as one of the means that God uses rather than necessary cause of them believing.
That is not what I said. There is no way it can be the responsibility of God to whether the person accepts or rejects Him.
You're getting it all mixed up, Silverhair.
The Holy Spirit presents Christ in living color and the choice is left to the hearer.