Once saved always saved

Hi esch, I know this wasn't directed to me, however I would like to respond. I know DHK can fully explain all three of these passages of scripture.

Obviously these three passages are on your list of "once saved, but now lost". Maybe even what you consider your "big guns".

Your position is that Hebrews 6 declares that a saved person has been lost. If this is true, it also declares that person cannot be restored, "imppossible" is what it says.

Why would James 5:19 be speaking about the saved who became lost having the "possibility" of restoration? ("one convert him" it says)

Why would Gal 4:9 be exhorting the once saved but then lost crowd to be restored again to Christ? ("how turn ye" is what it says. According to your position they must have turned away from Christ and are being persuaded back)

Hebrews 6 is like the Royal Crown for the unsecurity crowd. It, however, as defined by OSAS opponents, contradicts many of their other "saved but lost" passages presented.

God Bless!

[ January 07, 2005, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: steaver ]

 

Some of the most immovable and stubborn people when it comes to excepting salvation that I have come accross are those who were once enlightened. For some reason they have turned away from the faith and are now extremely resentful toward anything concerning the faith. I know, as others do, that nothing is impossible with God, but it is with man. This passage(Heb.6:3-6) here is enlightening us to how disconnected one can become who was once in the faith yet now denies the faith. I see no contradiction here but continuity in God knowing our hearts and understanding our stubborn will!

 

Hi esch, In an earlier post you took the following position...

Is there a difference between "falling away" and "wandering away"? If so , please explain.

God Bless!

 

You are not addressing my inquirey. I am not asking you to reword what you believe Hewbrews 6 is stating. You believe that Hebrews 6 declares that a person once saved has become lost, correct? If this is incorrect, please state so. That same passage declares that it is "impossible" for that person to be restored.

Now please explain how one passage you present declares restoration is "impossible" and the other two declare restoration is "possible".

God Bless!

 

Hi esch,

I am going to go ahead and reply to your last exposition of 2 Peter since I feel our viewers need to see a well studied perspective of the teaching of the chapter. I still would like a response to my last post.

The NT does not spend any time warning against the “born again” losing eternal life. That is what “eternal” means.

The following is what I believe to be the correct teaching of the passages you brought up from 2 Peter. It is from Benjamin C. Chapman , Ph.D. Former Professor of Religion, Liberty University B.R.E., Grand Rapids Baptist College; B.D., M.R.E., Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary; Th.M., Calvin Theological Seminary; Ph.D., Bob Jones University. Additional graduate study at the University of Michigan and the University of Manitoba (Canada) .

Begin Quote.

(2 Peter 2:1-3) ……..

“ There where false prophets among the people ”. The people here means the people of Israel; God’s chosen people, and Peter believes, like Paul, that “…. these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition ” (1 Cor. 10:11) . See also 1 Peter 2:9 where people is applied to the church. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 warned the people that if a false prophet came and tried to draw them away from the worship of God, they should not listen. It was a test to see if they loved God with all their hearts. Peter is telling his readers the same thing; he draws upon all the apocalyptic passages he knows to show that the false teachers are despicable to God and doomed to destruction as His enemies. Peter warns that “ there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in ” (that is smuggle into the church false doctrine without the people knowing it) “ damnable heresies ” (literally heresies of destruction, which means that faith will be destroyed if people believe these things) . The reason the false teachers sneak in heresy is because they deny “ the Lord that bought them ”. This does not mean that Christ is their Lord (master, despot) or ever was, but He could have been since He had paid the price for their release from sin. They denied Him (renounced) and would not have anything to do with Him when they could have been saved, and so will “ bring upon themselves swift destruction ”.

(2 Peter 2:18-19) ….

“ For when they speak ”. Probably this is a participle of means; it is by their well modulated, authoritative, bloated vanities that they are able to lure “ those that were clean escaped ” (rather ; those who are just now barely escaping) . New converts are easy prey for these slick-talking pseudo-Christians who are really false teachers. Although they promise freedom (vs. 19) , they are themselves slaves of corruption and sin. Here the principle of Romans 6:16 is stated: if anyone is in fact conquered by some-thing, he is actually a slave to it.

(2 Peter 2:20-22) …

Verse 20 begins with an “ if ” which must not be overlooked. Peter does not say that these false teachers have escaped from the pollutions of the world. The main verb is “ overcome ” (Gr. Hetaomai) which is the Greek present tense, implying that they are now being overcome or conquered by the terrible sins depicted in this chapter; the construction in the original has the effect of a present contrary-to-fact protasis. The writer, Peter, views the statement as a premise which is contrary to fact. He says, “If it were true that these false prophets were just now being conquered by sin and had already escaped the pollutions of the world (it is not true, but if it were) , then they would actually be in worse condition now than when they started”. These false teachers, of course, had never really escaped “ the pollutions of the world ” like true believers (cf. 1:4) ; if they had, and were now as “ entangled ” (Gr. empleko, meaning “hopelessly trapped” like fish in a net) as they are in sin, they would be better off if they had never heard of Christianity. According to their pretense, they claim to have been saved; according to fact, they have returned to the most despicable sins. This would be, obviously, like a dog eating its own vomit, or a pig which has just been washed going back to wallow in the mire.

The whole chapter warns believers to secure the faith which had been preached to them by the apostles against the barbarous attack by obvious frauds who have shown them-selves to be worthy of the certain judgment of God which will come upon them.

End Quote.

God Bless!

 

Steaver,

You wrote:

My post was in response to an earlier post you made. It also was the beginning of following through on something I said I would post earlier in the discussion: actual instances of apostasy recorded in the Scriptures. I have more to post on that topic, as well. I chose to complete what I was already working on, rather than responding immediately to your recent post. I am at a loss as to why you feel justified in speaking to me in the above fashion. I will do my best to move forward the discussion, but you need to understand that I have a full-time job, a ministry, and a family with children. I post as time permits.

Blessing to you,

Bob

 

I don't twist Scripture, but I know people who do.
Tell me: When does the definition of eternal become temporary? Does God lie? Some people tend to think so.

Hebrews 6:3-6 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Context:
The author of the Book of Hebrews was not just writing to Christians. He was writing to a mixed multitude. In that multitude were Jews who were not yet saved and were thinking of returning back to Judaism. Throughout this epistle Paul gives stern warning about returning to Judaism. There is no turning back once you have heard the gospel. For a Jew to turn back to Judaism after being convicted of the Holy Spirit to trust Christ as his Saviour would be a terrible thing. Thus the warnings that Paul gives:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

They were enlightened, tasted, and made partakers of the Holy Ghost, all when they were convicted of the Holy Spirit. They were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, for they were never saved. They saw the evidence of salvation all around them. They themselves had been convicted of the Holy Spirit.

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

They had sat under some of the best preaching one could ever imagine--no doubt the preaching of Paul. The had tasted of the good Word of God, and seen the Holy Spirit working in the lives of others.

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If they would fall away from what? From the chance to embrace Christianity which they had not fully done yet.
"To renew them again unto repentance" They had been brought to the place of repentance before, had been convicted of the Spirit before, but were unwilling to give up their Judaism, their old life, and thus were not saved.
Now Paul says, if you do this, continue to resist the Holy Spirit like this, you crucify the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. No Christian does that. These were unbelievers, Jews, thinking of returning back to their Jewish roots. This is a warning. If they returned to Judaism they would not be saved.

James 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Read the context and understand what the verse is speaking about. It is not speaking about spiritual salvation. James is writing to believers, brothers in Christ. Almost every chapter is addressed: "Brethren," including that verse. How do you convert a brother? How do you save a soul from death? It is obviously physical death that he is speaking of here, and the salvation is referring to the repentance of a specific sin (any sin), such as the sin menitioned in 1Cor. 5:1. The context has nothing to do with salvation. The multitude of sin that is covered are those sins that would have been committed had the erring one kept on in his sinful ways. We are to convert him from his backslidden ways. The man is already saved.
It also gives the impression that if one continues in their sinful way of life without repentance, God himself may cut his life short as He did in 1Cor.11:30, to those Corinthians that were abusing the Lord's Table.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
--And your problem here is? Probably it is the context which you seem to conveniently ignore most of the time.

Galatians 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
--Paul gives both of these statements because the Christians of Galatia had been infiltrated by the Judaizers who taught that salvation must be by circumcision and keeping the law. Paul is opposing that teaching, and explaining why it is by faith alone. He gives these statements almost sarcastically. Look what he says at the end of the chapter:

Galatians 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
There is no doubt in Paul's mind; neither about his salvation, nor about the salvation of the Galatians. We are children of the free. We are children of God. We do have eternal life. Don't allow false teachers to sway your thinking otherwise.
Good advice for you to take, esch.
DHK

 

My apologies Bob for offending you.

I will wait for your reply and please do keep those percieved passages of "once saved, now lost" coming.

God Bless!

 

I'm sorry esch,

I noticed I am mixing people up. I addressed the exposition of 2 Peter as yours when it was Bob's. I'm sure you figured that out, my apologies.

God Bless!

 

Hi padredurand,

I know you said you were leaving the discussion. I just want to clarify what I said about "obligation".

I said I "feel a sense of obligation". When I think of all that Christ has done for an undeserving wretch like me, it makes me realize that I need to do more for Him. That is a "sense of obligation" not a condition that I "must" in order to keep my salvation. As you said, I love God "only" because He first loved me.

This is why I said I could never really put a finger on your position. It seems to be both ways. Here you imply that one cannot add conditions to something that is free. Previously you took the position that eternal life (which is a free gift) has post conditions.

Here is what I believe your position misunderstands. Eternal life has a " pre " condition. That is one must receive God's offer. That is not a work, it is a condition. If I knock on your door and tell you I have a free car for you, you must say "yes, I'll take it!". If you say "no, I don't want it" then I cannot force it on you. The gift goes unrealized and wasted for you because of your rejection of it. Other people will recieve the car with gladness. Some will reject it for many different reasons (refuse to believe it, think there is a catch, don't want to feel obligated to anyone for receiving it, don't feel worthy, just plain don't want it, etc) .

Eternal life has no " post " conditions. Otherwise it could not be called free and the bible teaches that it is something we are given immediately upon saying yes to the offer.

Not believing in OSAS is the result of not understanding " born again ". Study this first and you will see how the difficult passages of scripture you guys bring forth are not speaking about Christians becoming lost.

God Bless!

 

Hey BobRyan, where have you been? Just bumping this forward for you. it probably got overlooked in all the posting.

 

Hey TP, where did you go? I just want to bump this up. Maybe you could pick it up where we let off.

You said;
"quote"
Greetings,

You asked: Do you have eternal life? 1 John tells us we can know.

Response: Could you give the exact verse from 1 Jn.
"end quote"

DHK then supplied the passage and we await your reply to it.

God Bless!

 

#1. You are right that I would not accept Maccabees as an inspired book. But that does not mean I don't read it.

#2. However - I wouldn't mind seeing a quote that SHOWS anyone praying FOR the dead with the view that WHILE DEAD they are being benefitted. I doubt that such an idea is in the entire apocrypha let alone the books of Maccabees.

#3. The RCC has BOTH the problem of praying TO the dead and the problem of praying FOR the dead - (praying for the dead to receive benefit of that prayer WHILE dead).

There is no mention of Purgatory, nor a place for the dead such that prayer IMPROVES the place where the dead are - or improves the existence of the dead in any way.

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Steaver,

I’m glad that you acknowledge that eternal life is life in union with Christ. We do not possess it in and of ourselves. Our life is in Him. But then you simply claim that our union with Christ means we can’t fall away, failing even to acknowledge the passage I cited from Galatians showing that one can be severed from Christ or the passage from John 15 showing that the branch can be severed from the vine. You can’t be severed or cut off from something of which you were never a part.

The passage in Galatians is especially damaging to your position, because it removes one of your defenses for OSAS. This passage is not simply a warning against something hypothetically possible. It is an actual case of apostasy.

Can one possess eternal life if severed from Christ? Can one possess eternal life without grace?

But rather than defend you position against the import of Gal 5 and John 15, you go on the offensive, seizing upon something you suppose will be a difficulty for me.

Paul taught that there would be some people who would not receive the love of the truth. Apparently, in the process they would become so enamored with wickedness that God would punish their stubborn refusal by sending a deluding influence upon them.

NAS 2 Thessalonians 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false,

Apparently, there is a point where one becomes so wicked and stubborn in refusing God that God gives that one over to it with no hope for return. I believe this is the situation described in Hebrews, as well, for some who had defected.

NAS Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end;

The Hebrew writer warns his brethren, partakers of Christ, to take care. He encourages continual repeated encouragement. Why? Sin is deceitful. Sin can harden one’s heart. He warns them against falling away from God having an evil, unbelieving heart. It is necessary to hold fast the beginning of our assurance.

Is it possible for someone who has been a “partaker of Christ” to develop such an evil, unbelieving heart that they are beyond return? I believe that was the case for some to whom the Hebrew writer refers in Hebrews 6. Hebrews 3 is a warning, but Hebrews 6 refers to those who had actually apostatized.

NAS Hebrews 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

Some translations begin verse 6 with “If they fall away…” or something similar, but there is no conditional particle in the Greek text to justify that translation. This was a case of some who had fallen away. This is another case of actual apostasy as recorded in the Scriptures.

There is a transition some have failed to notice in dealing with this passage. It is the transition of the writer from using “them” to using “you”. While the writer was “persuaded of better things of you”(his recipients), verse 9, he was not convinced of better things concerning them.

Evidently, the case of these apostates was extreme. They were said to be crucifying again the Son of God and putting Him to open shame. They had often experienced God raining down blessings upon them, yet they were producing thorns and thistles. In their case, it was impossible to renew them again to repentance. Evidently, they had crossed the line of no return in their hardheartedness.

But that is not true of all who have fallen. Not all have reached the point of no return.
Evidently, Paul felt that way about the Galatians. The Galatians had those who were preaching to them a different Gospel, and to Paul’s alarm, some were accepting it. Immediately after his opening salutation to the “churches of Galatia”, Paul gets the pressing issue on the table.

Galatians 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

To Paul, their turning to the Law simply was foolish. They had not received the Spirit through works of law. Paul asks them…
Galatians 3:2

Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Their acceptance of the teaching of those promoting adherence to the Law in addition to Christ was a serious matter. In fact, their situation was desperate as a result. Those who had begun to put their trust in their ability to measure up to God’s law for righteousness were cut off from Christ. They were fallen from grace.

NAS Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

In spite of their separation from Christ, apparently Paul did not consider it impossible to renew these brethren to repentance. He referred to them as his children, undoubtedly his children in the faith, and he was again suffering the travail of birth.

NAS Galatians 4:19 My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you--

So Paul obviously still held out hope for them.

Paul also held out hope for his fellow Israelites in Romans. He compared spiritual Israel to an olive tree. Most of them had been broken off. They had fallen because of their unbelief. Yet Paul said that God could graft them in again.

NAS Romans 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

Blessings to you,

Bob

 

I can see where some of your misunderstanding is coming from. Galatians 5:4 reads “ Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace ”. There is quite a difference between “ severed ” and “ no effect ”. I run into this a lot with those who use inadequate translations.

Here is a short expo on what this verse really teaches so our viewers may understand that it has nothing to do with “saved but lost”.

“ Ye are fallen from grace ”. The only time this phrase is used in the Bible. Having been saved by grace, the Galatians, who were reverting to the law for Christian living, were actually falling short of the standard of grace by which they were saved. The frustrating result would have been similar to the believer in Romans 7 who was struggling to live under the law. This does not teach that children of God can lose their salvation by falling out of grace. Paul is contrasting grace and law. Depending on circumcision, or any other work, means renouncing justification by grace through faith and takes one out of the spirit of grace and puts him under the dominion of the law. There cannot be two grounds of salvation, two means of justification, two ways of life. To accept the one means to reject the other. It is either law or grace, either works or faith, either self-righteousness, or the righteousness of God, either circumcision or Christ. The Galatians were in danger of substituting law for Christ as a means of salvation. ( Edward R. Roustio, Th.D . Former Associate Professor of Religion, Liberty University A.B., William Jewell College; Th.M., Southern Baptist Theological Seminary; Th.M., Th.D., Central Baptist Theological Seminary.)

I agree with Edward. I will address the remaining of your post as time permits since you covered many passages of scripture (I will cover all the scriptures you presented). But we can see why you might conclude what you have from Galatians 5. You simply have not thoroughly studied the text and need a good translation to study from. But this is how we learn and progress into sound doctrine.

God Bless!

 

Where does this scripture talk about the children of God, the "once saved"? Of course Paul taught that some would not receive the love of the truth, that would be the lost! This has nothing to do with our topic and in fact I agree that Paul's letters are a warning to the lost as well as to the saved but in differing ways.

2 Thessalonians is about the rapture and the tribulation. Those who did not get raptured (the lost) but who had heard about Jesus Christ and rejected Him, will be given the dellusion. They will have no second chance. Your grasping for straws here brother! Stay on topic.

God Bless!

 

Hi, Steaver,

Just home for lunch. A quick response on 2 Thes.

I know that the above passage is not talking about children of God. I am simply pointing out that the idea of a point of no return for an individual is Biblical. My argument that such can also apply to brethren who have fallen away is based upon the texts in Hebrews 3 & 6. I think you need to consider my use of that passage within the context of my argument, not as though it stands alone.

Blessings,

Bob

 

I understand. And I do not argue that there is "a point of no return for some individuals". What we are deliberating specifically is the individuals which have been born again. 2 Thessalonians speaks only of those who have heard and have rejected Jesus Christ. You should not use the passage otherwise. It is misrepresenting the passage.

God Bless!

 

Concerning John 15. One must be careful in the handling of this passage. While we can and should apply principles found in these passages to our Christian walk, we must first understand that Jesus is speaking to His disciples here. Second, this is spoken before any regeneration has been done by the Holy Spirit. What should be extracted from the passage is that we can bear no good fruit unless Jesus Christ is the center and reason for the works we perform. Works done without His approval will be burned in the refining fire at our judgment (1 Cor 3:15). There are 2 or 3 differing expositions on this passage. Since it is not crystal clear, and begs for interpretation, I don’t see why it is ever brought into a OSAS debate.

It clearly is speaking about bearing fruit which is a work. If this is speaking about losing salvation because we bear no fruit, then you must conclude that works is part of justification.

As for Hebrews, we have been over that and I gave my teachings on it. Which brings us back to my original inquiry of your contradictive positions. You continue to have them.

Bob's quotes ;
"Those who had begun to put their trust in their ability to measure up to God’s law for righteousness were cut off from Christ. They were fallen from grace".

"In spite of their separation from Christ, apparently Paul did not consider it impossible to renew these brethren to repentance".

"NAS Hebrews 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame".

"Some translations begin verse 6 with “If they fall away…” or something similar, but there is no conditional particle in the Greek text to justify that translation. This was a case of some who had fallen away. This is another case of actual apostasy as recorded in the Scriptures".
End quotes .

Now, if Hebrews 6:4 is about a born again believer actually losing eternal life, it also states that restoration is “IMPOSSIBLE”.

So how do you declare that Paul is trying to restore believers who “ were cut off from Christ ” and “ fallen from grace ”?

Your going to have to abandon one (Hebrews) or the others.

God Bless!

 

In Galatians 5:1-4 we see clearly the concept of "Fallen from grace". This is NOT a case of the "lost" getting "lost-er", NOR is it a case of the saved getting "saved only less so".

In Heb 6 we see clearly the need to "RENEW THEM AGAIN" to that grace and freedom from which they have fallen. THIS is also NOT a case of the "lost" getting "lost-er" nor a case of the "saved" getting "saved only Less so" NOR is it pure mythology that simply can not happen.

In John 15 - getting cut off and burned in the fire - is NEVER the description of "salvation".

In Matt 18 the "Forgiveness REVOKED" scenario described by Christ is "REAL" in fact SO REAL that He says "SO SHALL My heavenly father DO TO EACH OF YOU if you do not ...".

In Christ,

Bob