Once saved always saved

[MIZ83]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> If you want to discuss the argument I made, fine.

Yes, let's do because you keep on contradicting your own words. This is why I cannot understand why you cannot understand!

The passage in Galatians is especially damaging to your position, because it removes one of your defenses for OSAS. This passage is not simply a warning against something hypothetically possible. It is an actual case of apostasy.

" It is an actual case of apostacy " (your words)

Hebrews 6 refers to those who had actually apostatized.

You say both have " actually aposatatized ". (your words)

If this is true, Hebrews 6 states that it is "impossible" to restore those who have " actually apostatized " (your words).

Yet for the Galatians who have " actually apostatized " you say it is possible for restoration.

Do you have two definitions for " actual apostatacy "?

God Bless!

</font>[/QUOTE]Steaver,

The point is that the Hebrew writer was not giving an inflexible rule, true for all. Rather, he was giving what was true in their case. He was talking about those apostates. It is true, no doubt, that others have reached a point of no return. The Galatians had not reached that point, evidently. Being uninspired, I wouldn't know when a specific individual reaches that point. I would simply try to restore the individual to trust in Christ and repentance.

Blessings,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Steaver,

The point is that the Hebrew writer was not giving an inflexible rule, true for all. Rather, he was giving what was true in their case. He was talking about those apostates. It is true, no doubt, that others have reached a point of no return. The Galatians had not reached that point, evidently. Being uninspired, I wouldn't know when a specific individual reaches that point. I would simply try to restore the individual to trust in Christ and repentance.

Blessings,

I'm sorry Bob, but you sure have a bad case of double-mindedness. I wish you would study your own statements and try in make heads and tails out of them. You say " The Galatians had not reached that point, evidently ". " Evidently"? It says they have been " severed " from Christ! Can you be a little bit severed or a lot severed? So you believe there is a point of no return beyond "severed"?

Unbelieveable, no wonder you wrestle with the scriptures. I'm sorry Bob, I don't mean to offend you, but it is one thing to not understand the scriptures, yet another to present yourself as a teacher and one well studied in these matters. Your conclusion of these passages is just plain indefensible.

That is just my observation. I only say this in hopes you will see and repent of your errors. This is what James exhorts me to do with those following false doctrine (James 5:19-20).

God Bless you brother!

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

I also gave you something else to think about (the very word eternal).

I gave these guys that word as well DHK. They believe God's life is eternal because the scripture calls it eternal, but our "born again" life is not eternal even though the scripture declares it to be eternal. Go figure. They would have an argument if the scripture stated that it was not given until a later judgment. But that is not the case. The scripture declares it is given at conversion. That is the total difference between following a religion verses being a child of the Living God.

Here is what you guys are failing to understand. "Born again" is an act of God! If you received the Gift of God (eternal life) it is only because you answered the call to believe and through belief asked for it. It is God who re-creates you and conforms you into the image of the Son Jesus Christ. It is God who starts it and finishes it. No child fails because God cannot fail! And that would include jumping out of His hand as well. If I can jump out then God has failed to keep me saved. You see, God will not let go of His children (not to be confused with the lost).

If your child was down and out or maybe they were just sick of you chastising them and wanted to kill their self, but you had all power to never let that happen , would you say "oh well, I can't force you to live, go ahead and kill yourself" or would you hold on forever knowing that there was a day coming when all forms of sin would cease forever and your child would no longer get angry or rebellious and wish to die?

God Bless!

 

[MIZ83]

Steaver writes:

You say " The Galatians had not reached that point, evidently ". " Evidently"?

Yes, "evidently". I say evidently, because Paul said that he was in labor again for them until Christ be formed in them. So it is evident that although they had been persuaded by those promoting a false gospel to place their trust in the Law rather than in Christ, Paul believed it possible that the situation could be reversed. So, evidently they had not reached the point where it would be impossible to renew them again to repentance. The apostates considered by the Hebrew writer had reached that point, however. The writer says so.

In Him,

Bob

 

[MIZ83]

It appears that this didn't post successfully last night, so here goes again in a modified version.

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The branches are disciples in union with Jesus, the vine. We, as disciples, are in life-giving union with the Son just as a branch is in union with the vine. Life is in the Son. But anyone who does not abide in Christ, the source of our life, dries up, is gathered up, is cast into the fire, and burned, according to Jesus.

Back to John 15. Is this the only thing you conclude from the entire passage? If we don't "abide" we "burn" (hell I presume)? Were is the fruit bearing Jesus spoke of? Doesn't that add anything to the context of the passage for you? What is "fruit bearing" to you? Is it works, deeds or something else?

God Bless!

</font>[/QUOTE]The passage also teaches that fruit is borne in our lives through Jesus abiding in us and His words abiding in us, and through us abiding in Him. Fruit, I would surmise, is anything in our lives that is naturally the outgrowth of a relationship with Jesus.

Jesus also urges us in the imperative to abide in Him, suggesting that our union with Him, like any relationship, is a two-way street.

The passage teaches that if we are in Jesus and bear fruit, we can expect some pruning in our lives.

You believe that we can fail to abide in Jesus, be taken away, be apart from Jesus, be thrown away as a branch, dry up, cast into the fire, burned, and prove not to be His disciples, yet be saved, right? Eternal means eternal, right?

Of course, eternal means eternal. But eternal life is not something we possess as a reward for a one-time faith event. Eternal life is something we possess as we abide in a relationship with the Son of God, who is our life. If we have the Son, we have the life. If we do not have the Son, we do not have the life. (Same author, the apostle John, 1 John 5:12.) Eternal life is eternal, but eternal life is in Jesus. We must abide in Jesus, the vine, if we are to have the life. A branch only has life in union with the vine.

Blessings,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MIZ83:

Of course, eternal means eternal. But eternal life is not something we possess as a reward for a one-time faith event. Eternal life is something we possess as we abide in a relationship with the Son of God, who is our life. If we have the Son, we have the life. If we do not have the Son, we do not have the life. (Same author, the apostle John, 1 John 5:12.) Eternal life is eternal, but eternal life is in Jesus. We must abide in Jesus, the vine, if we are to have the life. A branch only has life in union with the vine.

Blessings,

Bob

Eternal life is a gift, not a reward. Read for yourself.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

There are no conditions here. When you believe, you have eternal life. You shall not come into condemnation. You are (at that particular time) passed from death to life.

Eternal means eternal. If you at any time lost what Christ gave you--the gift of eternal life, then Christ would be a liar. He is not rewarding you. He is giving you a gift. It is not something to be merited. It is a gift, a free gift, the gift of eternal life. It is eternal, everlasting, and thus cannot be discontinued, lost in any way. If it could then it would only be temporary and Christ would be a liar for he would only be giving us temporary life. He is not a liar. He performs that what he says he has promised.
DHK

 

[eschatologist]

DHK

Your view of the book of Hebrews I find rather perplexing! You state:

"The author was writing to Hebrews, both unsaved and saved. There were some unsaved Hebrews that were thinking of returning back to Judaism. That is who Paul is addressing here. If they were to make that decision and turn back they would be crucifying the Son of God afresh(with their Old Testament sacrifices) seeing that Christ had already fulfilled the law once and for all with His final sacrifice that paid the penalty for all."

The Book of Hebrews was spoken and written to BELIEVING Hebrews, NOT unsaved Hebrews as you suggest. My goodness, even a casual reading of this great book would reveal such. Even read the commentary at the beginning of this book, to which I did on several translations, and ALL said this book was written to Hebrew christians! And just in case you do not believe this, or it had escaped you, here are some examples from the Book of Hebrews:

Heb.3:1) They were called "Holy brothers." This title is further explain as such: "Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers"(Heb.2:11; see also Heb.3:12;13:1).

Heb.3:14) They had shared in Christ.

Heb.4:1) Were told not to be found short, so they had been taught, for the Gospel had been preached to them(Heb.4:2).

Heb.4:14) They had professed the faith.

Heb.4:16) Had confidence in their faith.

Heb.5:12) Had the elementary beliefs taught to them, though they were dull and needed to be reminded.

Heb.10:25) They were meeting together already.

Heb.10:32) They had earlier received the Light and had suffered because of it.

Heb.10:35) They had confidence in their faith and was warned not to throw it away.

Heb.12:7) God was treating them as sons.

Heb.12:22,23) They were a part of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Heb.12:24) They had been sprinkled by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Heb.13:9) They had been taught correctly and warned against false teachings.

I could go on and on here! I am baffled that you contend that Paul(who more than likely did not pen this book) was addressing unsaved Jews. Please show me where that is the case, especially in light of the fact than nothing validating your understanding here I have found to exist.

These were definitely Hebrew christians who, as you had meantioned, were wanting to fall back into Judaism. What sense would it make here if UNSAVED Hebrews were falling back into Judaism??? How could they fall away(or return) to something they never left in the first place? If I go on a trip to California and I decide to go back home to South Carolina, it would be that I would RETURN there. To return from California would require me to be there in the first place! As such, in order for these Jews to want to return back to Judaism, by the very nature of it, they would have had to been embrassing something else; And this, my friend, was Christ!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by eschatologist:

These were definitely Hebrew christians who, as you had meantioned, were wanting to fall back into Judaism. What sense would it make here if UNSAVED Hebrews were falling back into Judaism??? How could they fall away(or return) to something they never left in the first place? If I go on a trip to California and I decide to go back home to South Carolina, it would be that I would RETURN there. To return from California would require me to be there in the first place! As such, in order for these Jews to want to return back to Judaism, by the very nature of it, they would have had to been embrassing something else; And this, my friend, was Christ!

The Book of Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians. You are correct. I never denied that. My assertion was that within that group was a small group of unbelievers wanting to return back to Judaism. Why would you find this so incredible? Is it uncommon to find unbelievers in a church?
Let's look and see.

Paul wrote the first epistle to Corinth and wrote the entire 15th chapter to those that denied the Resurrection. Can one deny the resurrection and still be saved?? I contend that they cannot be saved, and were not saved. The very essence of the gospel message is in the Resurrection. It was the theme in each and every sermon recorded in the Book of Acts.

Another problem that Paul addressed in writing to the Corinthians was the problem of false teachers. If they were false teachers, were they saved false teachers? I don't think so.

Here is what Paul warned the pastors at the church of Ephesus.
Acts 20:28-30 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
--What would happen after Paul would leave. False teachers, unsaved false teachers would enter the church and draw disciples of the church away. They would not spare of the flock in the church in Ephesus.

What does John say:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
--They (the unbelievers) went out from us. Why? Because they were not of us (i.e. believers). If they had been believers they would have continued in the faith. There were unbelievers in the church that John was writing to.

What about in Galatia.
The very reason that Paul wrote to the Galatians is that false teachers called Judaizers had swayed the Galatians from the truth. They taught that salvation was not only by grace but by circumcision and by keeping the law of Moses. Paul's entire letter combats this entire heresy.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Unbelievers abounded in each of these churches and most likely in others including the assembly of the Hebrews. Why should we think it so incredible that there were some unbelievers in and amongst these believers, especially in light of the epistles written to the Corinthians?
DHK

 

[eschatologist]

I agree, you can not be saved and deny the resurrection. So you are unsaved. The indication in Hebrews was that they DID believe in Christ and the resurrection, yet their faith was weak. There were some considering returning back to the Jewish tradition due to their weakness, just as in the Galatian church some wanted to incorporate Jewish tradition into the christian faith and church. But there is NO indication from the tone of the Hebrew writer that he was speaking to unsaved Hebrews. Weak and immature christians yes, but not unbelievers. To deny the resurrection would indeed constitute an unbeliever, because it is the belief in the resurrection that is the foundation and soteriological essence of our faith! The Hebrew writer was explaining to them the consequences of turning their backs on the Lord and returning back to a system that was just a shadow of the good things to come and would NEVER lead to salvation and forgiveness of sins.

So DHK, I appeal to you again: Give me evidence in the Book of Hebrews that supports your argument that these were indeed unsaved Hebrews wanting to return BACK to an unsaving system, especially in light of those verses that I supplied to you that seems to support the contrary.

 

[steaver]

Yes, "evidently". I say evidently, because Paul said that he was in labor again for them until Christ be formed in them. So it is evident that although they had been persuaded by those promoting a false gospel to place their trust in the Law rather than in Christ, Paul believed it possible that the situation could be reversed. So, evidently they had not reached the point where it would be impossible to renew them again to repentance. The apostates considered by the Hebrew writer had reached that point, however. The writer says so.

Here is what it boils down to brother Bob.

(1 Cor 3:9-15)
9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

One of us is wrong! And one of us will have any work concerning this issue not survive the fire.

Begin with understanding "born again" Bob. It is the foundation Paul speaks of.

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" (Eph 4:30).

"sealed" by the holy Spirit of God unto the day of redemption! Is this a lie as well

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

1 Peter 1

1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

What does Peter say keeps our faith? "the power of God" is it? I am glad it is not the powerful endurance of Steaver. I would surely fail.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

What is that? It is a gift? It is eternal life?

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" (Romans 11:29).

What is that? "amentameletos" "irrevocable"? When God gives a gift it cannot be "recalled or undone"?

God Bless!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by eschatologist:


So DHK, I appeal to you again: Give me evidence in the Book of Hebrews that supports your argument that these were indeed unsaved Hebrews wanting to return BACK to an unsaving system, especially in light of those verses that I supplied to you that seems to support the contrary.

Agreeing with me on the First Epistle to the Corinthians is one step forward. Now consider, just as Paul was writing to the Christians at Corinth (probably mostly Gentile Christians), he was also writing to the Christians here (Hebrew Christians). But as in Corinth, so it is here; it does not necessarily mean that absolutely all were saved. Consider the evidence.

The design of the Epistle to the Hebrews is definite and certain. It sets before the Jew the claims of Christianity. It was difficult for the Jew to realize that he should renounce the Jewish system. It was easy for him to old to the outward Mosaic institutions and appointments and to regard them as the substance, and not the shadow. There was, therefore, the danger of unbelief, of forsaing Christ and returning to a sort of "Mosaisism." The great design of the epistile is to bring the Jew to the full realization of the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, to make clear that Christ has fulfilled the temporary and provisional institutions of Judaismand that, thereby He has abrogated them. (taken from Dixon's Analytical Bible)

If one admits that without the resurrection there is no salvation, then it is easy enough to admit that without a relationship with Christ there is no salvation. The design of the epistle was not only to show the reader the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, but between Christianity and the reader. "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin."

Hebrews 9:13-14 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The blood of bulls and goats could never take away their sins. It was useless for those who were thinking of turning back to that system to do so. The catch here, is that one who is truly saved, has the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Paul says that God's Spirit bears witness with his spirit that he is a child of God. If that be true, then there is no possible way that a believer could be described as falling away, and crucifying to himself the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
This is an impossiblity for a believer who possesses the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit indwelling him, the Holy Spirit bearing witness with his spirit that he is a child of God, the Holy Spirit sealing him to the day of redemption.
It can only be speaking of one who has not been born again, and does not have a real realtionship with Christ. The author of Hebrews was describing relationships: the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, and the relationship between the reader and each of the above religious systems. Do you have a relationship with Christ (that is, are you a Christian0? Or, do you have a relationship with your former religion, Judaism, a relgion of works. If so, it is impossible for you to be renewed again to repentance.

Heb 6:4-8 presents the case of Jewish professed believers who halt short of faith in Christ after advancing to the very threshold of salvation, even "going along with" the Holy Spirit in His work of enlightenment and conviction. Joh 16:8-10. It is not said that they had faith. This supposed person is like the spies at Kadesh-barnea De 1:19-26 who saw the land and had the very fruit of it in their hands, and yet turned back. (Scofield)

DHK

 

[MIZ83]

Steaver,

I am in the midst of remodeling today, tomorrow aft, and Monday at least...laying flooring, tiling my fireplace, and painting. I hate to make you wait, but I hope to address the scriptures you brought forth next week sometime.

God bless,

Bob

 

[eschatologist]

DHK

I agree with your statements regarding the beliefs in the resurrection and believing in Jesus as constituting the FOUNDATION for salvation. Yet we know from James that belief alone by itself is not enough, for even the devils believe. Where I guess I differ from you is my belief that these Hebrews WERE christians, as I outlined to you before, though some were somewhat weak. Not only did I say that it appears they believed in Christ, but also that they were enlighten, received the Holy Spirt, were sprinkled by the blood of Christ, and were assembling together in worship. Sure, as was the problem in several of these early churches(and some today), there was some weakness in faith, and as with the case with many here, there were probably some insecurities and persecutions involved that had them thinking of Judaism again. The writer of Hebrews was outlining to them the consequences should they fail and this happen.

 

[steaver]

Yet we know from James that belief alone by itself is not enough, for even the devils believe.

"Born again" belief is enough and the only requirement for salvation. The devils have been judged already and therefore "believe" that God is the real deal. All of the condemned will also one day "believe" but it won't be a saving belief. James teaches that true faith produces works. Not that it is "belief" plus "works".

Are you sure Jesus Christ is in you? I hope you know for sure and are not only following a religion of do's and don'ts. Just asking, not casting condemnation

James is speaking about True believers verses those who merely "say" they have faith.

God Bless!

 

[eschatologist]

steaver

That is absolutely NOT what that verse in James says! You have added your own interpretation to this passage. God would have made it clear if your interpretation were correct, leaving this reading between the lines for the soothsayers! If this is the rules for your biblical hermeneutics then debating you would be a waste of time. Stick to the facts!!!

 

[steaver]

Steaver,

I am in the midst of remodeling today, tomorrow aft, and Monday at least...laying flooring, tiling my fireplace, and painting. I hate to make you wait, but I hope to address the scriptures you brought forth next week sometime.

God bless,

Bob

I know all about that remodeling ordeal. Very time consuming!

I'm not sure that addressing those scriptures will profit your case any brother. I must tell you, your analyses of Hebrews verses Galatians and "actual apostasy" was as far as I have ever seen any opponent of OSAS stretch the imagination to make a passage conform to a belief. But hey, give it a shot! But sadly you have already shown hundreds of viewers how far one can go rather than repenting of error.

The very scripture (Hebrews 6) that is a king pin of the OSAS opponents actually disqualifies most of the other passages they digress to in a futile attempt to prove it wrong. Esch chose to simply dismiss the word "impossible" as a "figurative type of language", but you gave it quite a mad-hatters twist!

Is "eternal life" a figurative type of language as well? Doesn't really mean "never thirsting" or "everlasting" I suppose. Or it could mean that some have actually been given eternal life while still others have actually been given eternal life, but some who have actually been given eternal life have crossed a point of no return and no longer have actual eternal life, yet others who have actually been given eternal life can actually have eternal life! Understand?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

That is absolutely NOT what that verse in James says! You have added your own interpretation to this passage.

Steaver said:
James is speaking about True believers verses those who merely " say " they have faith.

"Yea, a man may say , Thou hast faith", (James 2:18)

I just repeated what James said. Doesn't "say" mean "say" or is it just "figuratively speaking" again?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

If this is the rules for your biblical hermeneutics then debating you would be a waste of time. Stick to the facts!!!

You want to question my hermeneutics! Why don't you say that to Bob about his interpretation, trying to harmonize Hebrews verses Galatians? But he is in your camp.

What is your science of interpretation? Mine is scripture interprets scripture, no contradictions, context is everything, some of the English (although not in "error") can be more clearly understood through reffering to the Greek and Hebrew. And yes, somethings are spoken "figuratively". Sorry, "Impossible" is not one of them. Neither is "eternal life"

Do you have eternal life Esch?

God Bless!