Once saved always saved !!!

[natters]

Marriage is not the basis for salvation. I use it as an example, because it also is a covenant involving two parties. It helps me illustrate covenant, that's all.

 

[natters]

After reading what you have written.I noticed you are way off on the covenants issue

How so? Please explain.

 

[Roguelet]

Like maybe you have no understanding of biblical covenants God made. Like Conditional covenants and UNCONDITIONAL covenants. Christians are in an UNCONDITIONAL covenant. I can find the link on the other thread if you like that explains them all. obviously the one you never read

 

[natters]

I did read it. I even commented on it in the other thread. It "claimed" salvation was an unconditional coveant, but never explained how it reached that conclusion. Salvation is a conditional covenant, because we need to believe to enter it. Belief is the condition by which we enter the covenant - otherwise, why do we need to believe?

 

[Roguelet]

You forget one thing though

Even your BELIEF came from God. He DREW you to himself JOHN 6:44. NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM !

He CHOSE you before you were ever born, before the foundations of the world. You had nothing to do with comming to Christ !

EPH 1:4, 2 THESS 2:13, 1 Peter 2:9, JOHN 15:19,

JOHN 15:16
YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, BUT I HAVE CHOSEN YOU.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[natters]

Predestination is another subject, and I'd like to keep this on track, please. However, I'll simply respond that if he predestined belief, he could just as easily predestine later unbelief.

 

[Roguelet]

Predestination has EVERYTHING to do with assurance of salvation you cannot seperate the two.

God does not go back on his word like MAN he does not UNDO anything there you go humanizing him again.

I noticed you couldn't twist the scriptures on belief and that even this came from God.

 

[natters]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
Predestination has EVERYTHING to do with assurance of salvation you cannot seperate the two.

For Calvinists, that's true.

God does not go back on his word like MAN he does not UNDO anything there you go humanizing him again.

I do not believe God goes back on his word. However, he can revoke. Like the servant who was completely forgiven who had his forgiveness revoked.

I noticed you couldn't twist the scriptures on belief and that even this came from God.

Why do scriptures exhort us to believe, if we have no choice in the matter?

 

[Roguelet]

You have not explained these verses away yet so i will not answer you till you do

Even your BELIEF came from God. He DREW you to himself JOHN 6:44. NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM !

He CHOSE you before you were ever born, before the foundations of the world. You had nothing to do with comming to Christ !

EPH 1:4, 2 THESS 2:13, 1 Peter 2:9, JOHN 15:19,

JOHN 15:16
YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, BUT I HAVE CHOSEN YOU.

 

[natters]

You have not explained these verses away yet so i will not answer you till you do

I will not explain those verses away, as I agree with them. So I don't know where that leaves this discussion. If you do choose to respond, I would like to know why do scriptures exhort us to believe, if we have no choice in the matter.

 

[Roguelet]

That's just it you have NO choice in the matter
and you have NO choice OUT of it either !

 

[natters]

I would like to know why do scriptures exhort us to believe, if we have no choice in the matter.

If God predestined our beliefs, that means he predestined me to believe Christians can lose their salvation. Why are you trying to get me to change my mind about something God wants me to believe?

Are you ever going to answer about the servant who was completely forgiven who had his forgiveness revoked? Just say "no", and I'll stop asking you about it.

 

[Roguelet]

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by natters:
... why do scriptures exhort us to believe, if we have no choice in the matter.

Where does one get the idea that the calvinistic thought of predestination negates free will, or absolves one of the respinsibility to believe? This might be what the hypercalvinists teach, but this is neither calvinistic nor scriptural.

 

[HankD]

I would like to know why do scriptures exhort us to believe, if we have no choice in the matter.

You answered the question when you used the word "us". Since only we ("us"), the children of God have the capacity to believe, it is to make it evident who the believers are.

The sheep are asked to bleet in order to tell them apart from the goats.

In the venue of your view of John 15 natters you have not proven that the "fire" spoken of in John 15 is eternal hell-fire but may very well be the "fire" in 1 Corinthains 3:15.

Destruction is also spoken of as related in one sense to belivers:

1 Corinthians 5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

And possibly this passage:

1 Timothy 1
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

HankD

 

[natters]

I don't want to side track this into a general Calvinism thread. I was simply reponding to Roguelet's claim that when we enter the covenant of salvation by believing, we had no choice but to believe. She said this to support her claim that salvation is an unconditional covenant, rather than a condition coveannt. If what she is saying is true, I'm trying to understand why belief is then necessary at all.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by SAMPLEWOW:
StraightAndNarrow I do understand. I spent 20 years living wickedly and out of God's will and was chastened but never ,I repeat ,but never did I take back or loss my salvation.

And no that doesn't mean I should sit back and just what for God's return.

And who are you to judge what fruit is ?

Are you Job's brother?

Please explain John 10:29 the word's right out of Christ's mouth.

How do you know you didn't lose your salvation. You want that to be true but that doesn't make it so according to the Bible. By the way, I'm not judging anyone. Christ will judge us all.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Thank you Bro. Phillip.

Most people like to argue about the
AS = always saved part.

Very few who argue such want to even talk
about the OS = once saved part.

Once saved by Jesus, a person stays saved by
Jesus.

For those of us in Christ:
We are saved to do good works; we are not
saved by our good works.

We were justified to do good works; we were not
justified by our good works.
We are sanctified to do good works; we
are not sanctified by our good works.
We will be glorified to do good works; we will
not be glorified by our good works.

I quoted scripture from the Bible. Please speak to that rather that your own doctrine.

 

[natters]

Originally posted by HankD:
You answered the question when you used the word "us". Since only we ("us"), the children of God have the capacity to believe, it is to make it evident who the believers are.

So it's just to identify us? It has nothing to do with entering the covenant?

In the venue of your view of John 15 natters you have not proven that the "fire" spoken of in John 15 is eternal hell-fire but may very well be the "fire" in 1 Corinthains 3:15.

I have already explained why I do not think they are the same fire, as the fire in 1 Cor 3:15 is a purging fire for all believers, while the fire in John 15 is only for those branches that are cast off from the vine - the branches that are not cast off are purged in verse 2, not by the fire. In other words: 1 Cor 3 = all purged, John 15 = some purged others burned. If you don't agree, perhaps you could explain the difference.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
Hank wrote </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />natters are you refering to the John 15 passage? If so the term "cut off" is not used but the words "cast out".

The branch being cast out is presumably not part of the vine and never was so.

Exactly Hank the verse never says that the one who DIDN'T abide was ever part of the branch. you can't take one verse out of the bible and build a doctrine on it.

I too agree that the word FIRE can mean and probably does mean REWARDS in fact that is what I forgot to write when I got back from church. Fire could mean Hell but more than likely speaking of rewards. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes it does say that the branch that doesn't bear fruit was a part of the vine, in the very same chapter.


************************************************
Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

*********************************************
"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away." Every branch IN ME. That means every person that was in Christ, i.e. saved.